"If You Could Change One Thing About Historicon..." Topic

King, good for you. I sure you're not alone. I haven't bought anything in the Vendor area in at least 6 years, and haven't even bother to go in 3.
As far a rotating vendors, some of the older ones might have a larger profit from going once a year. They may have the same sales, but only have to pay for one trip.

As far a rotating vendors, some of the older ones might have a larger profit from going once a year. They may have the same sales, but only have to pay for one trip.

Shouldn't that be their decision on which conventions to attend?

I haven't bought anything in the Vendor area in at least 6 years, and haven't even bother to go in 3.

Then you are clearly not the person who would benefit from the changes you describe.

It has lots to do with Historicon. The venders have become "stale". Same guys with the same stuff. So why go to the convention. Maybe it's time to rotate venders and not allow the same one's at all conventions. Of course, you have to have others who want to come.

I'm interested in hearing how you'd go about doing this.

We'll it all supposes that there are vendors that want to come that aren't. But how about a 10mm range (not just ACW which no one in our group needs) other than Old Glory. In July and August I bought 1100 1813 Prussians from Magister Militum. All my WWII and FPW are Pendraken.
And People like me are one of the reason attendance is down. We don't see any value in going. I assumed the OP was, what would you change that would bring you back to the convention.

But how about a 10mm range (not just ACW which no one in our group needs) other than Old Glory

Ok, and I could say how about someone carrying V and V miniatures? So I should expect HMGS to "improve" Historicon by insisting someone carry these figures?

Does anyone in the US carry Pendraken or MM figures? If so, then give them a call, tell them your order and you'll pick it up at the con. If not, how should the BOD deal with this?

We don't see any value in going.

Well, if the "value" only consists of certain vendors being present, then you have my sympathies. The value I get in driving a long distance to the HMGS cons is more than just from the shopping. To each their own.

" I haven't bought anything in the Vendor area in at least 6 years, and haven't even bother to go in 3."

So this qualifies your opinion on recent conventions _how_??

"Maybe it's time to rotate venders and not allow the same one's at all conventions."

Oh, really???? Will it be a public show trial or a star-chamber that decides this? I hope the tumbrills packed with despondent-faced vendors will be videotaped as we watch the losers journey their way to the .wargaming guillotine.

So what is your suggest capncarp. I'll listen while I eat some popcorn too. LOL I'm betting you have none, other than going with the same old same old. How's that been working for Hcon lately?

TheKing30 hits the nail on the head. Instead of rotating vendors to keep things fresh, it is a slap in the face to vendors who have been supporting the cons for all those years.

"I'm sorry Brigade Games can't come to Cold Wars this year. We need the room for Vendor X. And Vendor X can't come back at Historicon due to Vendor Y coming, but Brigade is welcome back."

Ya…….that'll work.

Edit: To HG, asking "what is your suggestion?" is a poor defense to criticism of a truly terrible idea. Seriously? Rotating Vendors? How about encouraging new vendors and gratefully supporting the vendors who support the cons?

I'm not sure how you make the leap that I am agreeing with the suggestion, but capncarp is quick to criticize everyone's suggestions – often mocking their posts with incoherent, nonsensical babble. I was just curious if he actually had any original ideas of his own other than just mocking people.

I'm betting he doesn't.

So this qualifies your opinion on recent conventions _how_??
Because I still read the ads and can see who's going to be there.
Also, I'm on those who's action have help lower attendance. We don't go because there's no reason. Add that to the sick, the dead, those paying for college or just retired and attendance will continue to fall.

If there is room for new vendor's that's great. I was under the impression there wasn't. Which is why I suggested a rotation.

I'm not sure how you make the leap that I am agreeing with the suggestion…

Capncarp was mocking the idea of rotating vendors. You asked what his suggestion was. I think outreach to new/old vendors is the way for the BOD to proceed.

Well capncarp mocks everything, but offers few ideas of his own. I'm just wondering if he has anything of value to add to the discussion.

We don't see any value in going.

What about to game?

Not sure how it is for the rest of you, but the biggest draw for me is experiencing new systems and having fun playing games with my fellow con goers. I also derive some enjoyment from putting on a game myself (aiming for something nice at Historicon).

And People like me are one of the reason attendance is down. We don't see any value in going. I assumed the OP was, what would you change that would bring you back to the convention.

I think you need to look at your "needs" to determine if a convention if right for you. Here are the reasons I go…

1) Friends. I have friends from all over North America that attend these conventions. They're a great joy to be around.

2) Gaming. We put on multi player games (usually not listed in the PEL) and they're a BLAST. If you're at one of the conventions on a Saturday night, I'd invite you to join.

3) Vendors. I like talking to the vendors and seeing what they have. Maybe they don't have anything new, but I'm still gonna buy for the period I'll start next year. Or the year after. Or… whenever.

4) Tournaments. I don't play in them much but when I do…. well, someone has to be last.

Now those reasons may not interest you. Maybe you have a condition where large crowds exasperate you – in which case I'd suggest staying home. But if you're only going for the vendors (bless them) them you're missing out on 70% of the convention!!

Capncarp was scourging the concept of unilaterally denying vendor access on some unknown basis. Who makes said decisions? On what metrics? What if several of the disinvited vendors proved to be extremely popular and the backlash causes an even greater no-show ratio in non-attendence? That way lies disaster

As to making practical suggestions, here's one I made sometime ago regarding getting products from England, et al,to the US for vendors to present at cons:
Have the British vendors form a small temporary consortium, purchase use of a small shipping container, stock it with their wares (some of which could be pre-orders), ship it surface freight to the US where a related US consortium receives, stores, transports and sells the merchandise at US conventions.
Lots of places where this can fall apart, but with LOTS of cooperation and advance planning it might prove to be a way of getting less-than-titanic quantities of hard-to-get items without the strangling shipping costs.
Next pipe dream?

Without commenting whether I think your idea is good or bad, I am not sure how that would be something that affects Hcon (the topic of the thread) or any other convention? Am I missing something in your suggestion?

The previous poster you knocked down (again, I am not saying his suggestion is good or bad), was at least offering something related to the convention(s).

So can you tie your suggestion to how it would improve the convention(s), or attendance, etc.?

The previous poster you knocked down (again, I am not saying his suggestion is good or bad), was at least offering something related to the convention(s).

So can you tie your suggestion to how it would improve the convention(s), or attendance, etc.?

I won't pretend to answer for Capncarp, but I'd like to address this.

First off, no one "knocked down" Thomalley. His suggestion was knocked down. He thought the OP meant "what would you change that would bring you back to the convention?" For him, this would entail getting a wider assortment of vendors, some from the UK. He felt that the lack of new or varied vendors made the convention experience "of no value" and that this was the reason he and his friends were not coming anymore. However, when pressed how he would improve the situation, he produced some unworkable solutions. It was those solutions that Capncarp and I "knocked down".

I told him that I agreed with having more vendors improving the convention experience. I even gave an example of a small vendor I'd like to see. However, preventing some vendors from attending in order to make room for others to show up is a bad idea and certainly beyond the scope of the Historicon CD. Capncarp's facetious comment of a "star chamber" was apt.

Capncarp and I both have alternative suggestions on getting a more varied vendor presence at Historicon. As for how this will improve the con, or increase attendance, shouldn't you be asking Thomally this? After all, he was the one who equated going to the convention and seeing value in going with vendor presence, not us.

Shopping is just one reason I go to these convention. At one, the Weekend, there is no shopping at all.

Bowman was correct in identifying my suggestion of the co-op as a method of improving the staleness of vendors' offerings, specifically those smaller vendors from overseas who may not be well-represented in the US. The marriage of convenience would not just be for one convention; again, with a long view in mind, it could supply one or two of the HMGS cons and some in between, depending on how far the stock stretched. If it proved workable (BIG "if" here), it might be repeated as needed with vendors coming and going as long as the net volume/weight total was sufficient to fill the container space, and psrticipants would proportionally pay for their products' volume/weight.

Maybe HMGS could set up a both with whatever sample figures where sent and whatever contact info.

I don't know about unworkable. Maybe difficult. I owned a store. I had several vendors that were instrumental in getting us going. I had to cut several of them in the end, because no one was buying their product, but the were buying the same products of a rival. I've been on the other end of attending events as a vendor and being cut. Of course we paid a percentage of sales not a flat fee, so the event knew our value to their attendees and to themselves. It's just a straight up business decision. Now HMGS may not have the data to make those choices.
And again, if you have the room there is no reason to cut vendors, except maybe cost of the sq ft they'll use.

I owned a store. I had several vendors that were instrumental in getting us going. I had to cut several of them in the end, because no one was buying their product

Sure, and that's an understandable business decision.

But I'm not sure the analogy is apt. If an HMGS vendor is not selling, then they'll stop coming. It's just not worth the expense. But let them make that decision, just like you did when you had your store.

If there is enough demand for 10mm figures, then Pendraken and Magister Militum will have North American distributors. It is they that should be enticed to come as vendors. If not, then there is little chance of either of those companies flying over the pond, with all their wares, to come to Historicon.

Well, if the "value" only consists of certain vendors being present, then you have my sympathies. The value I get in driving a long distance to the HMGS cons is more than just from the shopping. To each their own.

Actually it should be me offering you my sympathies. The fact that the vendors are the only value means I have everything else I need locally. I don't need the convention for opponents, supplies, a place to play or anything else they may offer.
Another thing the conventions use to offer that has now become obe, is seeing new rules played. But even that has been supplanted by youtube videos by the authors that pretty much explain everything. If it doesn't there is email to the author.
Or as another TMPer said in another topic
"With age and retirement my hobby spending has been drastically reduced. In fact, over the past couple years I've been thinning the collection, selling armies/eras in which I'm no longer interested. I used to faithfully attend the HMGS East shows beginning when they were held at the Sheraton near New Carrollton, MD. A few years ago I was unable to attend a couple shows and now the desire to go to conventions has all but disappeared". (Ragbones post)

But I'm not sure the analogy is apt. If an HMGS vendor is not selling, then they'll stop coming. It's just not worth the expense. But let them make that decision, just like you did when you had your store.

Except there is the case, such as when we attended events, where it was very good for us, but the event felt that they could better serve their customers (or make more money) from another vendor. You can have vendors that do well but do not serve very many attendees.

Actually it should be me offering you my sympathies.

No need to. I get to spend time with all my far flung buddies.

I lost track of this thread, What with it falling off the front page, etc.
I'm just going to address the flea market issue here, rather than the "Keep your cotton picking hands off OUR convention!" issue.

Back in the day when I had a ton of surplus crap I wasn't going to ever play with, I would set up a flea market table. Sometimes I made a killing. It was almost always stuff that nobody in the dealer area carried.
So, guess what I would do? I would spend at least half if it on new stuff that I might get around to playing with. So, MY flea market table was not in competition with the dealer area. It benefited them.

Another point. When I go down to a con, I have a shopping list. Does anyone ever take a shopping list to a flea market? No. That's for impulse buys. Now, if I think I need to get another copy of the Fincjen Lace Wars, there might be a bit of competition, but that's rare. Two different sets of merchandise.

Except there is the case, such as when we attended events, where it was very good for us, but the event felt that they could better serve their customers (or make more money) from another vendor. You can have vendors that do well but do not serve very many attendees.

Are we turning away vendors? If we have the room, I think we should let everyone in.

If we don't have the room – then let's make the room.

After spending 20 years on various reenacting circuits associated with our reenacting fabric business, several low-net-return (or even break-even or slight loss after business expenses) events were viewed as "showing the flag". This was to keep our company and its products in the eyes of the market communities and in distant locales where this might be the attendees' first sight of our merchandise. And while onsite sales may have been slim, mail orders almost always rose afterward from people who had a chance to think about their projects and order. However, wehile onsite, we always had "special sales" to draw the crowd in, give them a low-profit/loss leader bargain so they and their mates would get a chance to eyeball all of the other marvellous goodies we stocked. Here's a freebie; Vendors have a "We're so lonely" sale for the first hour of every flea market session. Five or ten percent off a particular item or off everything except…. This would offset the exodus from the vendor hall, entice bargain-seekers to visit the hall for each sale, and even out the vendor traffic, because the first wave die-hard flea-marketeers would come over to the vendors to spend their non-impulse buying.
Just standing in your booths doesn't bring in any more sales--chat up your customers about their specific hobby--not just "Can I help you?" and "Let me know if you need anything".

"I had heard that the BoD was discussing the idea of paying for some of the UK figure manufacturers to come over"

So if I purchased a booth at Historicon I would then subsidize British companies to attend Historicon and compete against me?

Mr T promised us a good trade deal, maybe it starts with HCon leading the way….

;)

The reason I travel so far is playing games in a concentrated few days and the choice of games to play. Surely that is the key selling point of the convention and everything spins off from the playing of games….

There would be little that I would change you have a successful formula so keep it going.

dapeters posited:
"Maybe HMGS could set up a both with whatever sample figures where sent and whatever contact info."

I'll see your sample table with contact info and raise you an "online order-it-right-there-and-get-a-Historicon/Fall-In!/Cold Wars Live at the Con discount or bonus!"

One change? The current on-site registration system is abysmal. They need a new one. Everyone knows it. The excuse is that it needs to "talk" to an offsite database through the Internet which slows everything down. A system for speedy on-site registering with a later update to their database would be a great improvement. If that's not possible with that they have, they need a new system where it IS possible.

Tumble, It's certainly not in the Hcon budget that we subsidize any exhibitors. I can't say that no one ever brought up the idea ever but I was at the budget meeting and I didn't hear it come up there. I'd write it off as either an idea someone floated that never got any traction or just a rumor.

Joby

It would be a dumb idea for sure. I'm sure Old Glory would love to subsidize Foundry coming over.
Almost as dumb as the idea to limit dealer participation so not everyone is allowed to present their wares all the time, but must rotate the privilege.

One change? The current on-site registration system is abysmal

While it doesn't pertain just to Historicon and is therefore outside the scope of this thread, I totally agree.

The HMGS database could fit on a "Thumb-Drive" or memory stick. I can't see any reason for it to be live or on-line. That always seems to be the choke-point.
Update the database after the con, as another poster said.

Ploogak:

Thanks. Apparently nothing more than a rumor.

Vouchers for all the GMs who submit their games by the PEL deadline.

One voucher per GM; not one voucher per game. With the new and improved registration system, GMs might be able to get a "voucher ticket" when they print out their badge, then swap that ticket for a voucher from the Registration desk.

Amount to be set by HMGS, but it should be at least $10. USD With $300 USDk+ in the bank (and counting, especially after Historicon), HMGS can afford it.

Honestly, what I'd really like to see is PEL cutoffs a little closer to the event. It's not that I don't like trying to decide what to run so far out I feel like I'm drafting some Soviet style five year plan…no wait, I DON'T like that. That's the whole point.

+1 to The Wargaming Company

+1 to CD

I'd also like to see HMGS bring back vouchers for the GM Awards program, as apparently they cut that at some point.

The voucher for GMs should be given out at completion of the game. There is often a lengthy list of canceled games at the games desk. Make sure it actually happens before somebody gets paid.

Fleamarket: There is a free session on Sunday mornings. On opening day the first session is usually an afternoon session. Could a free morning session on opening day be an incentive for some early arrivals? Dealer Hall opens at noon so not a conflict for the vendor sales.

Zoneofcontrol said:

"The voucher for GMs should be given out at completion of the game. There is often a lengthy list of canceled games at the games desk. Make sure it actually happens before somebody gets paid."

Sounds like a good idea, but not going to happen. I hung out at the events desk for a bit at CW. Long story short, staff were only aware of games canceled where the GM had informed them or attendees told them there was no such game at the table. HMGS has no staff dedicated to overseeing what is going on in the gaming area other than if the Events Manager happens to be sitting right there. He can only do so much. While HMGS has many volunteers dedicated to other on-going things, they really have none managing and overseeing what goes on in the gaming areas. Not blaming the Events Manager, he is only one guy.

I think I counted 30 or so canceled games on the flip chart by the ticket area. Those were only the ones they knew about. I would suggest that this has become a significant problem in many ways. Yet I don't see people on here complaining about the lack of games or about canceled games.

FYI, if you attended the membership meeting at Cold Wars and listened to the Treasurer's report (like I did), you know the financial status of the organization. HMGS does have a cash reserve in excess of $300 USDk. If things go as projected, it will be closer to $400 USDk (or above) by the end of the year. Historicon is at a much less expensive venue this year than prior years and Fall In has consistently made money over the years. The financial recovery of the organization under this BOD, led by the efforts of its past two Treasurers, from the "bad old days" of when HMGS was being sued and paying legal fees, is one of the unsung success stories of recent HMGS (East) history.

If the issue is vouchers, trust me, HMGS can afford them. The mechanics of how they are distributed can be worked out.

I went once, drove 575 miles with my family. I had a better time at Nashcon. I'll never go back. The people were certainly friendlier down south. No thank you.

Zone of Control wrote:

Flea market: There is a free session on Sunday mornings. On opening day the first session is usually an afternoon session. Could a free morning session on opening day be an incentive for some early arrivals? Dealer Hall opens at noon so not a conflict for the vendor sales.

On first sight, I really like this idea. Maybe if I think about it for a while, I'll come up with caveats and/or objections, but not right now! I sell off my old stuff (and that of friends who can't come to the con) on Sunday morning, and it's disheartening to think how many people have already left by then who could find a treasure among my junk. ;-)

Hold it in a handicap accessible facility.

historygamer wrote:

I hung out at the events desk for a bit at CW. Long story short, staff were only aware of games canceled where the GM had informed them or attendees told them there was no such game at the table. HMGS has no staff dedicated to overseeing what is going on in the gaming area other than if the Events Manager happens to be sitting right there. He can only do so much. While HMGS has many volunteers dedicated to other on-going things, they really have none managing and overseeing what goes on in the gaming areas. Not blaming the Events Manager, he is only one guy.

Actually, the long story is that at CW 2018 we did begin to try out a new system whereby exactly what you describe was being done. I know, because I spent several hours at CW with a clipboard going around to the game rooms. The system is only incipient at this point, and I'm not in charge of designing or developing it, so please take everything I say in that spirit. ;-)

We had a list hour by hour of games, and my job -- when I wasn't needed at the Events Desk -- was to go to each location and verify (1) was the game being run? (2) was the listed GM actually running the game? (3) how many players were present? (4) how much money would the GM give me for writing nice things about the game?

OK, so I didn't make much money.

A few GM's (jokingly or not) remarked that we were the compliance police or words to that effect. A couple of GM's joked that since they had fewer players than hoped for, they would not be allowed to put on games in the future. As a GM who over the years has had one player show up at my games and lived to tell the tale, I was quick to disabuse them of THAT rumor. But in general people appreciated the visit, GM's and gamers alike. A number of them also expressed appreciation for our role of verifying that games were actually being run.

Of course, I tried not to disrupt the games with a lot of questions, but if someone had time to chat I wouldn't cut them off. Sometimes the GM or assistant GM would volunteer information about how many players had actually shown up with tickets (and hence how many people who got tickets were no-shows). Many games had the full complement (and even extra players sometimes) as noted in the PEL. This information confirmed what we were telling people at the Events Desk if there were no more tickets for a particular game: "Show up and see if the GM lets you play."

At CW we didn't have enough staff to run the Events Desk well AND visit all the games, so there were gaps, sometimes filled by a volunteer from the Awards Desk. It takes a lot of time to circulate to all the games and get information without interrupting the flow! (I didn't have time to get to the Hobby University events on my list, but that's a different animal anyway. I have never heard of a teacher for HU failing to show up for a class so they could get in free.)

I'm suggesting that in the future there be Events Desk volunteers designated in each shift for the game-checking role. Also, the idea of later evening hours for the Events Desk was mentioned, at least until the hour that the last games of the evening begin. I would support having a designated Events Desk volunteer to make the final shufti of the evening at that hour as well.

I just want to make clear – not all the canceled games on the easel at the Events Desks were scofflaws. In fact, most of the cancellations were for legitimate reasons where life intruded on plans. One GM even had a serious medical emergency during CW and required hospitalization. But we definitely don't want gamers being disappointed just because someone didn't run a game for no good reason.

I just want to make clear – not all the canceled games on the easel at the Events Desks were scofflaws.

I was involved with Historicon for six years – 2006 through 2011. Each year part of my job was to take the cancellation list and the unclaimed badges home with me. On Monday night I sat down and checked the list. For each cancelled game I first determined whether the GM has scheduled more than one game and if his other games were run. In any case where a GM had not run any of his scheduled games I checked the pile-o-badges. If the badge was in my house on Monday it was not used and the GM likely was unable to get to the convention.

Through six years and over 3500 games the total number of badges claimed by scofflaws …

ZERO! ZIP! Nada! Zilch!

Though this does not prove that it never happens, but it strongly suggests that the "problem" is minor at most.

Duncan Adams

First off, good for you Grumble. Long overdue for HMGS to start getting some oversight/information on what is going on in the gaming areas. Why? To help determine what number of games are really needed, that games listed are showing up, helping to ensure that staff hours are used efficiently both in planning and on site, and to ensure attendees are populating the games present to some extent (no penalty for light number of players, but zero players would seem a problem of some sort).

If you came across my game you would have seen six players, but only four listed in the program. I always do that, and usually I always have at least six players, often more.

The odd thing about CW was how empty the Distlefink was for most of the convention – about half full most of the time. I have yet to hear anyone complain about not being able to find a game to play in either.

I would also point out that games were scheduled all over the place. Perhaps it is time to start putting more of the games that show up in the main gaming areas instead of some of the far flung recesses at the Host. The gaming area by the front desk is as dark as a cave. Other areas are out of sight of foot traffic, reducing the chance for walk-ups to play. By putting more games into the main gaming areas, the convention will look fuller, space will be managed more efficiently, and everyone can see all those wonderful games.

If the convention program goes to an online/virtual program in the near future, perhaps it will be easier to assign games as they show up to open tables. That would allow a more efficiently managed gaming area. I noticed that even with the lack of a map of the gaming tables, most people seemed to find the games they were looking for.

Duncan,

In your above post you basically present no evidence of how many GMs who actually picked up their badges yet never ran any or all their games over that 6 year period. So you presented ZIP, ZERO, Nada, Zilch of any useful facts on how much it has happened, and who the offenders might be, or how often it does occur during that same 6 year period!

Because you really have no way of knowing!