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"Cold Wars 2018 PEL cut-off is Dec. 6th" Topic

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1,022 hits since 28 Nov 2017
©1994-2018 Bill Armintrout
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Personal logo capncarp Supporting Member of TMP28 Nov 2017 7:02 p.m. PST

Wednesday, Dec.6 is the last day to submit entries for Cold Wars 2018 Preliminary Events List.
Check out the HMGS Cold Wars site ASAP!

Golgoloth Inactive Member28 Nov 2017 7:45 p.m. PST

I have this image of you dancing past this BBS, and dropping your URL … but you didn't! Link?

Poniatowski Supporting Member of TMP30 Nov 2017 7:31 a.m. PST

As of this morning, there was approximately 200 events in the system. This includes club events. As I sit here typing, my gmail notification is popping on my phone… a quick glance at the screen… more events coming in…. Thank you all very much.

Personal logo capncarp Supporting Member of TMP30 Nov 2017 9:37 a.m. PST

Golgoth sez: "I have this image of you dancing past this BBS, and dropping your URL … but you didn't! Link?"

I am merely an interested member of both TMP and HMGS, a butterfly gently fluttering from blossom to blossom, sipping the nectar of each and leaving just a soupηon of where I have come from.

'Ere's yer bluidy link:

Personal logo capncarp Supporting Member of TMP03 Dec 2017 9:35 a.m. PST

"Bumping for the sake of bumping" bump.

Personal logo capncarp Supporting Member of TMP03 Dec 2017 10:47 p.m. PST

Psssssttt…Is this thing on????

Moe the Great04 Dec 2017 1:39 p.m. PST

I just submitted my two games. Thanks Cap'!

Personal logo capncarp Supporting Member of TMP04 Dec 2017 8:28 p.m. PST

Just being me: cheerfully annoying!

Razor78 Supporting Member of TMP05 Dec 2017 9:53 a.m. PST

More than three months before the convention????

historygamer05 Dec 2017 10:26 a.m. PST

Yes. The pre-reg games have to be posted soon so that the players who register, then don't show up, can get going.

And don't forget about all the GMs who have to register early too, then don't show up. Come on. Respect the process. :-)

Moe the Great05 Dec 2017 3:12 p.m. PST

Oh geez… we're starting early… ;-)

Virginia Tory06 Dec 2017 8:47 a.m. PST

I must be doing something wrong--I register as a GM then run a game. What am I missing?

Personal logo capncarp Supporting Member of TMP06 Dec 2017 11:20 a.m. PST

Today, today, today is the day!
The LAST day.
Saddle up and get your game on, errrrr, in, Game Masters!
Cold Wars is depending on you!!

(psssst…VA Tory: the snark filter has failed, so some static is to be expected. Please just tune it out and go with the flow.)

Poniatowski Supporting Member of TMP12 Dec 2017 6:19 a.m. PST

Roughly 400 PEL events in the system for Cold Wars. Space it tight.

historygamer12 Dec 2017 6:28 a.m. PST

Dan – just out of curiosity, how many of the GMs who registered were no-shows at FI?

historygamer12 Dec 2017 4:48 p.m. PST

And is having so many games a good thing given attendance has been declining? As a registered GM I sure don't want to set up for fewer players.

No offense to you but HMGS seems to have this cultural thing about celebrating more games while attendance remains flat or falling. Maybe it's time to get a bit more discriminating. Just a thought. :-)

TSD10113 Dec 2017 9:33 a.m. PST

And is having so many games a good thing given attendance has been declining?

Glad I decided against running a game at Cold Wars in favor of preparing something bigger for Historicon.

400 games, divided by 2000 or less attendees (some of which will be day trippers, tournament players, or open gamers) means there is going to be quite a few empty or sparsely attended games.

historygamer13 Dec 2017 10:30 a.m. PST

At least to me it makes no sense whatsoever. So 20% of the attendees are not paying to attend. I have to wonder if there has been any comparing games that registered to games that no-showed at FI. I know there can be many reasons for cancelling, but at least worth a look.

With so many games trying to get in, HMGS can pick and choose what games and GMs it wants. Think of it in terms of the dealer area – how would they handle it if they had more dealers wanting to attend than space? Space is finite whether it is games or dealers. HMGS cons have a history of trying to accommodate ever game that registers and the result is often rooms jammed to so full of tables you can't move around them or across the room.

And again, what will be the no-show rate? How much time will be devoted to doing a layout that isn't needed? How much time is spent on the pre-reg ticket system for 400 games, then lots of no-show gamers as well.

One definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. :-(

vagamer63 Supporting Member of TMP13 Dec 2017 6:55 p.m. PST


Let's be honest, HMGS has been doing the same ol' thing in the same ol' way without deviation for nigh on 30 years. Publically they will say it's a "Model" that works! However many of us who have been around since the beginning are fully aware there exists an ingrained resistance to any type of change that would make things better for all concerned.

They will spend 10 – 15 minutes entering all the personal information and then some of every attendee into a laptop computer at registration. Yet when it comes to tracking information on GMs like do they put on a good game, do they routinely show up, do they have a long history of cancelling their game, does their game attract attendees, or do they even show up on time, or not. NOTHING is ever recorded!

As one former BOD Member explained when I asked about why they take in every game submission. He stated very forth rightly they know from past experience that roughly 5% of games will be cancelled for "cause", while another 10 – 15% will be "no show" for any number of reasons. Thus the over all number will work itself out. He ended by saying, "We already have their $25.00 USD for Membership, so it works out."

The only way that tracking info for GMs will happen is when someone is convinced, and then can convince the entire BOD it will be worth the time, energy, and man power to do so, and that the total effort would actually matter! Take what you wish from that thought!

historygamer13 Dec 2017 7:55 p.m. PST

I think you are spot on.

Poniatowski Supporting Member of TMP14 Dec 2017 8:58 a.m. PST

Actually…. not any more….
I will get the number together as I don't have it with me.

As for more games is better….. that is absolutely the OLD mentality…. the current CD's are actually working to figure out optimal seats per day/games per day, etc… by attendance numbers.

As a matter of interest, the study that was done at Fall IN!, which did include the NO SHOW GM's as "empty seats" had a verifiable fill rate of over 70% per game.. average.. this doesn't mean all games were 70% filled… it means the overall all fill rate for Fall In! event seating was over 70%… but barely.

The new convention directors are working hard to address a lot of stuff… especially the events per show issue….

I think I mentioned before… when I first started doing events, I measured the success in my mind of the show to be how many events the show had…. I have learned over the years that that is definitely NOT so…

The success of the show really is a hard thing to consider…. you have finances gained or lost, quality of events vs number of events, revenue earned by dealers and the flea market folks….

For me.. show success comes down to attendee happiness…. and as we all know…. that is damn near impossible to measure "individually"…. you might be sick at the show, might not find that perfect game or deal…. etc… but what you lack in one area might skew another statistic….

You might come to the show and find NO games you want to play in…. or can get into…. then you wind up spending lots of money on stuff at the flea and dealers or whatever….

Happiness is finding that balance…. did you get out of the show what you came for…. for some it is the games, but it could very well be the flea, dealers, friends, some of it all of it or none of it…. (salty grognard, not happy unless they are unhappy and can report back on how bad things are, LOL!)

Anyway.. for events…. yes, we are all discussing that taboo thing…. HOW MANY EVENTS ARE ENOUGH EVENTS….. and, where do you stop taking them? This leads to a HUGE , uncomfortable issue with many folks immediately…. say we limit the number of games…. at what point do we then limit the type of games… or the number of each type…???

What is the sci-fi guy gets his game in early…. then a historical guy…. submits his event within the PEL, but at 11.50pm… the night it closes…. we are HMGS…. so does this historic guy get precedence over all non historic games…. ?????? even though he barely made the cut off?

That my friends is an argument I do NOT want to have…. and will not be baited into. So.. if we always have "enough space" we never have to have that argument….

I believe a game, regardless of genera, should be pretty, fun, etc…. folks should want to not only play in it, but those who do not get in, would want to stop and take pictures…. everyone at the table would be having fun….

So, in closing… YES…. this is being looked at very closely.. fill rate vs attendance… but no one has addressed the elephant in the room about event priority…. and you go about doing it…. even amongst all historic games, we still have our preferences…. folks would argue…. what is the most popular at the moment.. etc… it is all a matter of opinion….

OK, I am done.. LOL! lecture/discussion off….

All I want is for everyone to have fun.. period.

historygamer14 Dec 2017 10:08 a.m. PST

Outstanding. :-)

If I might make a suggestion – the way to address what games get priority is to create your room layouts ahead of time (on paper of course), and that determines your universe of total games.

Then, based on that, create a tentative (ideal) schedule (types of games) and fill in with real games as they register. Having ten Civil War games at the same time does not seem like a good thing for anyone. I think you'd find most GMs accommodating to move (even if an hour or two) if they knew of conflicts (based on who registered first). As I previously said, I would have for FI when the same battle, same rules were run within an hour or so of my game.

One more carrot and stick you might add to your bag – obviously there are peak times of gamers and GMs. Duncan identified these for Hcon way back when and I suspect they are still the same for all three cons (more or less). While you might need more tables during those peak times, you do not at others. Perhaps during the lower demand times you take some tables down, creating more space for gamers and games. That could be an incentive for some to move their games to those times too instead of peak demand times – if they know they won't be fanny-rubbing against the neighboring games. Just a thought. :-)

Personal logo capncarp Supporting Member of TMP14 Dec 2017 12:23 p.m. PST

Speaking of room and table-spacing, someone in perhaps another thread spoke of through-traffic and the difficulty of gettig from A to B, particularly in the Distelfink. They also mentioned dedicated channels or throughways to help alleviate this. All I can say is "Great idea!" from one whose caboose is definitely "Broad-gauge".

historygamer14 Dec 2017 12:34 p.m. PST

I was at least one of the people who said that. The Distlestink should be laid out with at least one, if not two, aisle ways. One should go from the front door to the back where the load dock entrance is. I know Dan is a stickler for meeting ADA rules of five feet between tables, but I would argue that is not wide enough by at least a foot or two. I challenge anyone to walk, unhindered, between the tables from the front to the back of the room. Five feet is not allowing for chairs (at least two feet at each of the side by side tables) nor some of our larger gents who play in games, not for those acutally in wheel chairs (what ADA was supposed to be about).

While large spaces cuts down on a good number of tables, it makes for a more enjoyable gaming experience for all concerned and allows the many people who like to walk around and look at games do that.

Of course doing this would likely mean either hosting fewer games (but perhaps with more players), shifting when some of the games run, or better utilizing the side rooms, many of which are often empty or partially empty – not unlike the Distlefink.

But now CWs has taken in 400 games (perhaps a record for this con, as I suspect this does not include the tournaments), many of these games which will no show, not be full, or not look very good. I agree that making decisions is hard, but then again, that's what management is all about.

Poniatowski Supporting Member of TMP19 Dec 2017 5:38 a.m. PST

Excellent thoughts, thank you.

I want to mention though… for CW 2018…. we did fix the thoroughfare issue in the Distilfink…. BUT… with this fix came the removal of one column of tables… this meant less gaming space, but a much wider aisle wrap around to get around the Distilfink.

I assure you all, even with chair space, the main aisles are very much ADA compliant. I do this for a living… (ADA stuff). I know at Fall In! it seemed close, it was, but it was still legal.

The best I can say at this moment about games is that I do very much reach out to a lot of GMs about perhaps changing their times as they overlap the same type of game with the same rules or era, etc…. you are correct about SOME being very helpful… BUT.. many other GMs are not as easily moved as one might think…. they plan their event around their weekend schedule and are not susceptible to moves… this number is much larger than you might think. Mind you, there is NOTHING wrong with this as I am very grateful that they are running a game, it is just that their schedule is tight and their submission time is al they have to run the game.

historygamer19 Dec 2017 6:34 a.m. PST

In regards to juggling games and trying to de-conflict – all you can do is try, and obviously you are doing that, so good on you. :-)

In regards to the tables being ADA compliant. I am not familiar with the wording, and I don't doubt that the table edges were five feet apart, but I can assure you, other than the aisle way you created, it was difficult, if not impossible to move between the tables – at least when two were filled with a game and beside each other. I can share some photos with you if you like. Simple math – five feet between, then subtract two feet (at least) for a body standing next to a table (x2) and that leaves, at best, one foot between. Throw in chairs (often pushed back) and there is zero room.

That said, for some reason, a lot of the apparent no-shows seemed to be more in the middle to the back of the room than up front.

Which goes to the final point – given the number of no shows – the loss of table space was immaterial since all those tables weren't needed to begin with. That said, I am not sure how you predict the no-show rate, which is why I suggested managing the tables like a hostess does seating at a restaurant – you assign the table when the GM shows up.

Best wishes to you and your family Dan, for a very happy holidays. :-)

Moe the Great19 Dec 2017 8:31 p.m. PST

And to think, only three more months of complaining to go….. yeah.

Personal logo capncarp Supporting Member of TMP20 Dec 2017 12:29 a.m. PST

pssst…Hey, Moe: ya want some popcorn?

Poniatowski Supporting Member of TMP20 Dec 2017 5:40 a.m. PST

capn… that there was funny!
We are trying, lol!
To clear up an ADA thought from history gamer…. ADA regs are about accessibility and room once you are at a location so to speak. There were main aisles in the D-fink that, with chairs in them, would still be over 6feet wide…. more than enough for the wheelchair clearance regs. The thing is, between the tables… there was room to fit a wheelchair to play, but not room for them to zoom up and down every aisle at every game… that is not required.

And… Merry Christmas and/or Happy Holidays to all of you and yours also!!!!

historygamer20 Dec 2017 6:24 a.m. PST

" there was room to fit a wheelchair to play, but not room for them to zoom up and down every aisle at every game… that is not required."

I'm not sure what you mean by that? Does that mean someone in a wheelchair would be able to pull up to a table and play? Yes, likely with some difficulty. Does that mean someone could easily walk in between the tables, or that a wheel chair could easily move between the tables? No. Absolutely not. And I have pictures to show how tight it was between tables. That said, it was improved over last year.

If you right about the number of games registered for CW then is on another trajectory to pack tables in, which, again, makes no sense given the numbers of people attending and the likelyhood of so many no-show games.

Complaining? No. Just talking about facts. I know facts annoy some people. IIRC, past events managers laid out some very good con floor arrangement with good space between the tables. I have no idea why HMGs needs to constantly reinvent and "improve" upon previously well laid out floor plans. I can't even explain why there is a difference between layouts for FI and CW.

I'd also be interested to hear what games capncarp and moe the great put on as this affects GMs, and not all who haunt these hallowed internet halls even put on games for HMGS cons.

Personal logo capncarp Supporting Member of TMP20 Dec 2017 5:58 p.m. PST

HG this is a forum about gaming, not solely about gamemastering. Whether I or anyone else does or does not put on a game at any convention has no bearing on my posting. I, as you, are free to contribute our views and have those views validated or critiqued by our fellow posters.
The concern for a slightly broader access in D-fink is to not only accommodate the letter of fulfilling the rewuirements of the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA), but to fulfil the spirit of said law to enable several of our fellow HMGS members maneuver their Rollator, or wheelchair, or cane or crutches (see: "greying of the hobby") around those of us whose natural padding is generously distributed (not necessarily referring to the "growing of the hobby").

historygamer21 Dec 2017 5:18 a.m. PST

And that was my point too. I'm sorry, but unless you are attending another convention than me, there is no way people can easily move through the gaming area between the tables. The layouts change from convention to convention, which makes little sense in a facility as well known as the Host. HMGS volunteers have spent a lot of time over the years re-inventing the wheel.

And, yes, I do think GMs (who show up) do a heck of a lot of work in dragging that stuff in and out to entertain people for a few hours, so forgive my bias is I find their comments have more merit than those that don't put on games. It is, after all, a wargaming convention. And as I have said before, HMGS doesn't treat their GMs particularly well for all the work that they do – in my experience.

Personal logo Bowman Supporting Member of TMP21 Dec 2017 6:20 a.m. PST

….so forgive my bias is I find their comments have more merit than those that don't put on games

The putting on of wargames, or not putting on wargames has absolutely nothing to do with the quality or merit of the postings on a wargaming forum. Sorry, but Capncarp is correct. There are some award winning GMs who say some pretty illogical things on TMP. The quote above, is just one example.

I happen to put on games every show. Some of my friends, here on TMP, never do. That's just how it is. My GMing doesn't afford me any greater insight on my comments here, just as their non-GMing does nothing to diminish theirs. End of story.

Finally, isn't it time to put this thread to rest? Dec. 6th has come and gone.

historygamer21 Dec 2017 10:19 a.m. PST

The topic under current discussion is room layouts.

Listen to whatever fertile geniuses you want who have no relevant experience.

I wasn't addressing my comments to you anyway.

Personal logo Bowman Supporting Member of TMP21 Dec 2017 11:51 a.m. PST

I wasn't addressing my comments to you anyway.

It's a discussion forum. You produce a statement and others comment upon it. That's how it works.

Sorry - only verified members can post on the forums.