"Tips for running a large TSATF game smoothly" Topic

I'm planning to run a large TSATF Sudan game in the Spring. A British force in a coastal town attacked by hordes of Mahdists with reinforcements coming by train and boat and the Mahdists attacking by land and by sea.

I've played TSATF some but never a game this large. I'm looking for any tips or suggestions for running a large game smoothly.

Brit initial forces are 4 platoons and 8 Arty/MG along with some civilian volunteers and a small cav unit (mt'd infantry). Reinforcements are a naval gunboat with a platoon of sailors and an MG and a train with 4 more British platoons.

The Mahdists are attacking with an equal number of points initially and with 3 to 4 platoons of dhow mounted troops (a la Khartoum) with some cavalry/camelry and a little artillery. I'm considering allowing waves of attacks with units coming back after they break.

I'm also adding some "special characters" on both sides along with some random events.

Lastly any suggestions on handling the timing of the reinforcements would be really appreciated. I'm looking for a close tense game that could go either way.

. . . and yes I know that I probably shouldn't try this but I've really wanted to do this for years.

Thanks for the help.

The Major

The best thing you can do is change the way close combat works.

Instead of each pair of attackers lining up and rolling, roll for each side with all the attackers at once.

So if you have 10 Brits and 20 Mahdists the Mahdists roll 20 dice the Brits roll 10. Each side hits on a 4+, 6+ kills.

You will have to make up a table for modifiers to this as the one in the game doesn't work but should provide a guideline for you.

This will make it playable.

Use a different set of rules? Those players who design scenarios to break games generally succeed in doing so.

In addition to the above, flip cards to activate sides -- not units. A red card is turned up, so all British players activate a unit under their command.

Play "800 Fighting Englishmen".
It's TSATF written by original author, specifically to address concerns regarding a large game.
TSATF was not written for huge battles, but that never stopped anyone.
800FE addresses these issues, quite well I think.

An encouragement to listen to "Winston's" recommendation to use 800FE.

So MANY inevitable problems in games of TSATF with large number of mini's are neatly sidestepped. Your project will prove to be far more manageable--and therefore FUN!--for your players.

Buy them here: link

You'll Be Glad You Did!

TVAG

I'll also "second" Winston's recommendation to use 800 Fighting Englishmen. I've run some large TSATF games at conventions and I've had to squelch my instincts of "bigger is better" since TSATF just won't handle very large games. But 800FE will and it uses many of the mechanisms of TSATF.

Jim

Major, you should see if JLeahy can chime in, he did Islandwhana for us years ago, and it was a grand game,in fact it was one of the most enjoyable battles I ever participated in. He did a hell of a job. We had heaps of chaps on the table!

1. Movement stands for the units.
2. Ignore wounds. All hits are kills. Still check for key figures.
3. As GM turn multiple cards until the color changes from red to black or vs verse. Then let that side move that many units.
4. Have plenty of dice for firing.

I use to run convention games with 8 or so players and could be done in about 3 hours of playing time. But the key was I knew the rules forward and backward. Knew the to hit table numbers in my head. But the most important thing was I could keep the game moving, but still enjoy the epic moments. Have fun is the most important rule though.

All of the advice from "doug redshirt" works well – streamline the physical act of moving, have multiple cards/players/units moving at the same time, and ignore wounds, wounded natives, carrying wounded etc. And have enough dice laying around that no one is ever waiting to roll.

As Pictors say, streamlining the melee process can also help a lot, but it does take away a bit from the epic nature of the special combats. It really depends on how many melees you think you will have. For Zulus, it would be very important; for Boers, much less so. For the Sudan? Somewhere in the middle, depending on the troop types in play and the scenario.

Also due to the how effective firing is, you tend to have fewer melees or smaller meless then you expect. A lot of charges fail or what survives is a handful of figures. Plus all the epic results come in melee.

One other then that I don't bother with is stragglers on the charges. Just another needless die roll that takes time away from the game. All my toy soldiers are brave men who would never desert their comrades.

Lots of good advice already given above.

I agree, if you have time, you should get a copy of 800 Fighting Englishmen, Larry Brom's own "Big Battle" variant of TSATF. It uses multiple adjustments to significantly speed up every aspect of play, including movement, fire, melee, morale, and dropping nonessentials already mentioned above, such as casualty card (to determine dead & wounded) and stragglers.

Personally, as a long-time fan of TSATF, even in my biggest games -- approx. 200 British & Indians vs. approx. 500 Afghans -- I stick with figure vs. figure melee die-roll-offs, since IMHO that's one of the most exciting and fun parts of the game.

For me the key aspect to speed up is movement, because you don't want multiple players sitting around doing nothing for long stretches of time, and movement -- especially if you are using single-based figures -- often takes the longest stretches of time. Fire doesn't take all that long, and melee has an inherant element of "Battle Theatre," with other players on both sides engaged in cheering or groaning as it proceeds, at least for the vast majority of players in my experience.

Best of luck to you, Mjr Stalwart, I hope you and all your players have a great time, and that you're very happy with how it goes!

Mjr Stalwart, there has been lots of good advice given. I've been running extra large TSATF games for many years. Some of my friends and I run 4 to 7 Large TSATF games twice a year at our HMGS-South cons in Fl.
The best way to manage a large game is to speed up movement. I routinely use one of two procedures.
In very large games where players are each controlling 2-4 units I allow one command of 2-4 units to move on their designated color card. The other way is to pull a card and have 1-3 of that side's units move depending on the card pulled. 2-5 = 1 unit, 6-10 = 2 units, face cards & aces = 3 units. This can also be done with a dice roll but then you are adding another step. Once the card is pulled the side is advised that they must move their unit(s)! Dawdlers are subjected to a time limit on deciding and moving their troops. I use a 1 (or 3 min) minute hourglass sand timer to clock them to decide which unit(s) to move and begin their move. If they are habitual they will loose that turns movement. All in good fun, but the game must continue. Most people move quickly and have an idea of what they want to do each turn but some need a bit of encouraging.

I've also implemented a couple of house rules to speed up movement in regards to terrain. All terrain impediments, Terrain Class, and Cover mods should be discussed prior to the game to limit confusion and lengthy discussions. All structures, conveyances, and terrain features troop capacities should also be clarified pre-game.
Crossing Undefended Low Walls, Barricades, or Obstacles, Entering or Exiting a structure, Embarking or Disembarking a vehicle or conveyance, Ascend or Descend a ladder, Moving through a Door, Wall Gap, Fence Gate, Stairwell, or any Narrow Opening drop the high die and proceed as desired. Multiple obstacles or functions, drop the highest die for each function per turn.

Check out the HMGS-South site for con details to be a part of these large and awesome TSATF games as well as these blogs with pics and AAR's of some of those large games.

hmgs-south.com

sgtguinness.blogspot.com/?m=1

laststanddan.blogspot.com/?m=1

maiwandday.blogspot.com/?m=1

Cheers,
JB

PS – I've played in the Mad Guru's Mega Games and they are absolutely amazing! Beautiful troops, gorgeous terrain, fun, fast, and furious. He's a great GM and never disappoints. He has maps and custom card decks prepared. That way when you pull a card you know exactly which unit or command must move.
Cheers,
JB

I agree with Doug red shirt and I will have a few of them:
1)when you assign players make sure that there are experienced ones on both sides.
2)assign beginners to easier commands (dug in troops…)
3)when a player moves, pick a card after the first figure is moved. If the next one can be in front, wait. If it is the same side or at the other side of the board, have them move with a few minutes in parallel
4)only a commander in chief should assign the cards. Have them limited to 10 seconds to decide (no 10 minute chess thinking there)
5)allow two units for a card being a 10,J,Q,K
6)give every player a tray with 10 d20 and 5 d6. If it does land in the tray it does not count. Have 2 extra d20 of different colors for special hits (pistol…)
7)have templates for arc of fire
8)give every players good charts. verybody should solve their own movement and shooting by turn 3. It is not a complicated rule set
9)no argument at the table

Sylvain Chicago, good points all around! Most of those are our SOP as well. Good job pointing them out.
Cheers,
JB

I've played in TSATF based games at a convention before, and what "Doug Red Shirt" says worked well. We got through a game with 8-ish units per side with plenty of time to spare and to teach newbies (like me) how the system worked.

Slyvain chicagos's addenda are good, also. Decent charts and enough dice can make a big difference, and spreading out the experienced players is key.

If I recall correctly, we had movement stands (flocked CDs for our mass formation troops), used the "Referee flips cards until the color changes", and considered "wounded" and "killed" to both be "out of the fight".

On the other hand, the game kept the standard melee sequence alive. Even with something like 8 units per side on the table, it was never a big problem. Though we often ran multiple melees at the same time on different parts of the board, and the board was very large. And the experienced players would "call" the results as they were rolled, to keep things moving along.

Thanks to everyone for all of the useful comments.

I have gotten some is Litko's 5 and 10 figure "Hoard" trays to speed up movement. I may get some of their skirmish trays for the Brits. As the defenders however I don't expect them to be maneuvering as much as the Mahdists.

SgtGuinness, I like the idea of having a player move all of his units on a moved card but the idea of a varied number of units moving depending on the card number is interesting too.

Sylvain, unfortunately all of these players are going to be new to TSATF. Some will be new to miniature gaming also. All are gamers of some sort though, either 40K/WarmaHordes or board games. I'm planning to have pre-printed unit cards and cheat sheets as well.

Along with stream lining some of the rules, as suggested by Doug and others, as well as knowing them front to back I'm planning to set up the night before so we can get started ASAP on game day.

I'm trying to get some interest going for historical gaming at my games died so I really hope this goes well.

Thanks again to everyone for the suggestions.

The Major

The major
If there are new players, I have created a one pager sequence chart that contains all the cases.
You can get it on them tahoo group or by emailing me at sylvainncATyahooDOTcom

Sylvain

Major, preprinted unit cards is an excellent idea sir! That will definitely speed up play as there is no question about which unit will be making the next move. I did that with my most recent con game, The Hun The Frog And The Lion. Patrick Wilson of The Virtual Armchair General made a custom deck up for each unit or ship inloved in the scenario. It worked out great and there was zero confusion as to which unit needed to activate or fire.
Cheers,
JB

Not sure the benefit of overloading a game rule set and trying to do something that will likely not be workable and perhaps not very enjoyable, but each to their own.

The Hive and the Flame games I've run tend to be on the large side. I've found a lot of ways to speed play.

Range sticks-I bought dowel rods, cut them to length and painted them different colors. The longer ranged weapons that have a long/short I painted two contrasting colors.

I took clear plastic multi compartment boxes and put a die in each compartment. In one are D6 or alternating colors. Each colors are paired up so that in melee there are pairs so a large number of troops can resolve melee quickly (up to 20 figures on each side on one shake of the box)

I did similar things with D20 for shooting. One shake of the box and a whole unit of riflemen shoots!

I use movement trays, but I'm cheap so I bought a bunch of plastic plates of various sizes at the dollar store. This makes movement a lot quicker as units can be shifted around without worrying about individual figures.

To keep track of which units have moved I bought a bunch of cheap plastic shot glasses. When a unit is activated and moves it gets a green glass, when it shoots it gets a red one.

I have two seven deck card shoes and as Doug says keep turning cards for movement and shooting until the side changes

This is my melee dice box

Each of the pairs are the same color, but are surrounded by dice of contrasting colors.

Rattle the box and set it down and read each pair of dice! Simple and quick and it keeps me from having to chase the dice around as well!