Help support TMP


"The Hospitallers Knights…" Topic


9 Posts

All members in good standing are free to post here. Opinions expressed here are solely those of the posters, and have not been cleared with nor are they endorsed by The Miniatures Page.

For more information, see the TMP FAQ.


Back to the Medieval Product Reviews Message Board

Back to the Medieval Discussion Message Board



664 hits since 2 Nov 2017
©1994-2017 Bill Armintrout
Comments or corrections?

Paskal Supporting Member of TMP03 Nov 2017 8:57 a.m. PST

Hello to all

You have noticed that nobody really has any problem to know at all times, the military organization, the outfits and the numbers, at least theoretically, of the Teutonic Knights …

As well as to know what exist in 25 / 30mm figures for these Teutonic Knights…

In my opinion it's not the same for the Hospitallers Knights…

My question is simple, which can enlighten me on the military organization, the outfits and the numbers, at least theoretically, of the Hospitallers Knights without me having to read masses of books …

And what is there like 25 / 30mm figurines specifically for the Hospitallers Knights for the 12th century…

Thank you in advance.

RudyNelson03 Nov 2017 9:41 a.m. PST

Check Fireforge. They have Teutonic and Templars which can be Hospitalers.

olicana03 Nov 2017 9:57 a.m. PST

Perry do some nice early Hospitallers.

picture

It's generally thought that there were about 300 brothers in the Middle East at any one time. At La Forbie they lost were 325 with only 28 escaping alive. This virtually wiped them out.

They employed non brethren knights, sergeants and turcopoles to bring up their numbers. They promised 500 knights and 500 turcopoles for the invasion of Egypt in 1169 but the knights were probably not all brethren.

Paskal Supporting Member of TMP04 Nov 2017 11:01 a.m. PST

What were the proportions between the brethren knights and the mounted sergeants /

What was the outfits of the mounted sergeants ?

There was not a specific infantry of order sergeants?

The fighters specifically of the order were the knights, mounted sergeants and turcopoles?

The serving brethren are the mounted sergeants ?

Johannes Brust Supporting Member of TMP05 Nov 2017 12:52 p.m. PST

For gaming purposes I would model 1 sergeant, 1 brother, 1 turcopole.
Osprey has a book on their uniforms..which changed from black to red.
Serving brethren are not sergeants.
Hope this helps

Paskal Supporting Member of TMP08 Nov 2017 2:00 p.m. PST

Yes and for the uniforms of their sergeants ?

Druzhina09 Nov 2017 9:34 p.m. PST

A few extracts from the organisation section of Armies and Enemies of the Crusades 1096-1291 by Ian Heath

p11, The Hospitallers:
The brethren-at-arms of the Order consisted of knights and sergeants (the latter outnumbered by the former), though the distinction only first appears in documents in 1206. At this date each brother knight was accompanied by 4 horses and probably 2 esquires, while each brother sergeant had only 2 horses and a single esquire (in all the Military Orders the esquires were drawn from amongst the serving brethren).

Footnote on p12:
* Some indication of the proportions may possibly be given by the Templar garrison of Safed, recorded c. 1243 to have consisted of 50 brother knights, 50 brother sergeants, 50 Turcopoles, 300 crossbowmen, 820 esquires, workmen and others (largely natives) and 400 slaves.

p13, The Templars:
Likewise in addition to brethren their forces included Turcopoles, vassals, mercenaries and allies …
The proportion of Turcopoles would appear to have been similar to those of the Hospitallers, basically on a level with the number of brethren; for example at La Forbie in 1244, where the Templars may have lost as many as 312 brethren, they also lost 324 Turcopoles.

Brethren again consisted of knights and sergeants (the latter existing at least as early as 1147). The distinction between them was almost inevitably more noticeable than amongst the less militaristic Hospitallers, and by 1250 an initiate seeking entry into the Order as a brother knight had first to prove he was the son or descendant of a knight, a qualification likewise requested by the Hospitallers and the Spanish Orders within the next two decades.

Druzhina
2th Century Illustrations of Costume & Soldiers

Paskal Supporting Member of TMP19 Nov 2017 9:54 a.m. PST

Thank you all

The knights and sergeants, I see what it is, but for the outfits of the sergeants, it is not that of the knights?

So how were they dressed?

The esquires were drawn from among the serving brethren ?

Esquires in ordinary chivalry, I see what it is, but in knights of Christ?

So how were they dressed?

What is serving brethren?

So how were they dressed?

The infantry of this order was dressed how ?

She wore a particular outfit?

Thank you

Personal logo Great War Ace Supporting Member of TMP19 Nov 2017 12:46 p.m. PST

Early Hospitallers evidently did not dress their sergeants/Turcopoles differently from the Knights. Lay brother knights wore the same surcoat or habit as the monks. But in battle they did not dispense with the habit or cappa clausa. So very little of their armor would actually be visible!

In 1248 they replaced the habit in battle with a black surcoat. And in 1259 this was changed to a red surcoat with a broad white cross of "Greek" style bleeding off the edges of the garment (and presumably the shield also). From 1278 the sergeants got to wear a red surcoat like the Knights. So for a period of time the sergeants would have looked different, wearing black while the Knights wore red.

Esquires were drawn from the serving brethren and were not fighters. Infantry would be like for the Templars, being mostly mercenaries.

The Hospitallers seem not to have had a cross device on their shields until quite late, but this is from lack of mention/evidence. I prefer to assume that a white cross of the Latin style was present from the beginning. And later the broad Greek cross takes over. The Maltese or eight pointed cross of romantic legend probably wasn't a battle device. But I like it. And my Hospitallers all have a huge Maltese cross on their shields.
link

Sorry - only verified members can post on the forums.