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"A necromunda theory." Topic


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The H Man31 Oct 2017 1:29 p.m. PST

Thought this may warrant a new topic.

Necromunda is out next month.

Now I find out the boxed game is very basic like a board game and you gave to buy a separate book from day 1 to play campaigns and use 3d terrain.

I feel this is a bad move, more a strange move.

Possible reason?

I found out last week mantic are releasing a new Sci Fi game called star saga. This looks like hero quest in space. It had a kick starter a year ago so most people could know about it.

Is it not likely then that GW saw this game coming and cheapened necromunda to compete? Then sell the more advanced stuff in a separate book.

Some people may have easily said they already have mecromunda so will try star saga. Now it's cheaper it's more of a lure. Also casual game players can now play necro as if it was just a board game adding to its appeal and sales.

I find the necro/star saga release at least a very big coincidence.

Thoughts?

Personal logo Dentatus Supporting Member of TMP Fezian31 Oct 2017 1:46 p.m. PST

I see the coincidence/similarity but am unconvinced GW needs to keep up with Mantic. The reverse is more likely, in general.

I suspect GW/Necromunda is accounting for production costs, price point and sale-ability, and the $$$ to be made off expansions and new faction figs. That's their standard M.O.

GW's starter boxes priced competitively and designed not so much as 'loss leaders' but as taste teasers or gateway products to the rest of their product. Like every business, the strategy is to hook you, and get you to spend more $$$.

Personal logo Pictors Studio Sponsoring Member of TMP31 Oct 2017 2:37 p.m. PST

The new Necromunda looks a lot better than a basic board game.

Look at some of the previews from the new White Dwarf:

link

Personal logo HUBCommish Supporting Member of TMP31 Oct 2017 2:49 p.m. PST

GW has been going down the MVP route for the past few years. The first one I noticed was Age of Sigmar, which was also a test bed for various game mechanics and aesthetics eventually used in 40K 8th edition.

Necromunda is a perfect example of an MVP.

link

Personal logo The Beast Rampant Supporting Member of TMP31 Oct 2017 4:12 p.m. PST

GW paying any real attention to Manic: negligible.

Mantic paying attention to GW: hell, yes. It's why we have not-squats and space skaven.

The H Man31 Oct 2017 5:59 p.m. PST

Although in this instance, if anyone was paying attention to anyone, it was GW paying attention to mantic. The kickstarter came out a year ago, giving GW a lot of time to pre pair. Also mantic would have no real idea what was happening with necro and no real ability to change things if they did as they were bound to the ks.

It may be nice for GW die hards to think they don'tneed to worry about competition. However they are a business and would indeed be keeping a close eye on what is happening in their market.

Mantic has taken some of their customers and GW would want them back.

Necro should have been an easy release like space hulk or blood bowl. This extra book seems very odd as running a gang in a campaign around 3d terrain was always the point of it all.

Zagloba31 Oct 2017 6:27 p.m. PST

I would think the process for Necromunda started back when the rebirth of specialist games was first dreamed up. They would want to space out Blood Bowl, Necro, whatever according their own milestones and benchmarks. Results to shareholders are more important to GW than some imaginary rivalry.

Personal logo Pictors Studio Sponsoring Member of TMP31 Oct 2017 6:34 p.m. PST

"Although in this instance, if anyone was paying attention to anyone, it was GW paying attention to mantic. The kickstarter came out a year ago, giving GW a lot of time to pre pair. "

This shows a surprising amount of ignorance about how GW, or businesses that size, work. A lot of this work was done more than a year ago and the rumours of it being produced are much older than that. Clearly it was Mantic following the lead.

Deadles31 Oct 2017 9:01 p.m. PST

GW is all about squeezing every penny out of their fan base.

Even the Blood Bowl book was dismembered into multiple sections that you had to buy separately.

The company may claim it's all about gamers but nothing's changed and it's still about shareholder value.

The H Man31 Oct 2017 10:06 p.m. PST

True.

Actually pics I was talking about the decision to release the campaign rules separately and not include their plastic 3d terrain (a fav of yours, I'm sure), not when the accutal idea to make either game came about.

Correct that necro was probably in the works before star saga, but as with most large productions, changes can be made quite late. Especially in printing.

Star saga offers no real resemblance to necromunda. However the necromunda changes do have it showing an odd resemblance to star saga on the table. At least as far as flat terrain and a sci fi setting.

Again a very odd choice at a very odd time.

Perhaps we will never know the truth.

The H Man01 Nov 2017 12:19 a.m. PST

Just read up on mvp.

This necromunda release is not that. As they are releasing the extra rules anyway, with out waiting for sales figures. Unless they counted pre orders? Although they may be shifting some risk by printing less of the expansion.

I feel the basic game is really to target casual board game players. Those who don't care for rpg or miniatures games (terrain).

Mantics star saga sounds to be coming with colored plastic figures. I wonder if necromunda will? Aos has, from what I have seen.

I mentioned big last minute changes in big products. A few fun GW ones:

War master 6mm plastics. Pulled at the last minute. I saw a photo of the elf 3ups some where online.

Hobbit 2 book sold separately. Also two plastic elf heros, obviously made for the not to be boxed set, I assume, as there were no other plastic heros apart from in the first box.

Hobbit 3 free rules. A ugh! What happened? Though this may, by thus point have been planned.

I remember Andy chambers first rules job to be writing rules for plastics that were made before the rules were written!

Others exist outside GW. Revenge of the jedi being just one.

Fun facts!

Deadles01 Nov 2017 12:56 a.m. PST

A reminder of what you got with original Necromunda starter set and a reminder how much GW is ripping us of with the new one (not even a whole ruleset).

link

Centurio Prime01 Nov 2017 3:42 a.m. PST

Development of Necromunda started more than a year ago. Obviously.

GW did not use the MVP model for Age of Sigmar, they had a fully developed product line of hardback books, novels, etc ready to go and which were published at its release. If they were using MVP, why would they commit to that? In fact, GW has been offering a fairly comprehensive series of expansions for each major product release… look at the Blood Bowl release that was followed by additional books, cards, teams, etc. Look at Shadespire.

GW is not following Mantic, I doubt its even a blip on the radar to them.

More conspiracy theories when the answer is simply that they are a (relatively) large company with a successful formula for delivering stuff people (outside of TMP) like.

The H Man01 Nov 2017 4:13 a.m. PST

Actually considering GW killed off war hammer fantasy and then made up aos and gave the rules away for free, which mantic was doing all along, suggests they are much more than hay blip.

Again, it's nice for GW die hards to believe they have no competition, but it is untrue.

And yes, we all now well realize a game takes more than a year to produce. I have covered this above. Do read at your leisure.

Also on tmp quite a few people have ordered the kickstarter for space saga. Perhaps your just running with the wrong crowd, or just making stuff up? Hey, centurio?

Personal logo Pictors Studio Sponsoring Member of TMP01 Nov 2017 4:33 a.m. PST

"And yes, we all now well realize a game takes more than a year to produce. I have covered this above. Do read at your leisure."

Yeah, so your theory is garbage, has been disproved and we can move along.

Centurio Prime01 Nov 2017 4:40 a.m. PST

Its not that I believe they have no competition, I just don't think they care to follow what the other companies are doing.

I'm not sure what you are talking about me making stuff up.

Personal logo The Beast Rampant Supporting Member of TMP01 Nov 2017 5:40 a.m. PST

Even the Blood Bowl book was dismembered into multiple sections that you had to buy separately.

Yeah, that was also the case with 2nd* and 3rd edition. So, going back nearly thirty years, nothing new here.

*(Although admittedly, much of the 2e material was compiled from multiple WD articles- but since it would be even more expensive to buy multiple magazines than one $20 USD book, that really doesn't discredit the statement)

The H Man01 Nov 2017 7:14 a.m. PST

Oh boy.

So, again, for pics and other people Deleted by Moderator. I was not suggesting either game came about because of the other (pics was the one to come up with such suggestions), only that GW may have changed what they were doing with necromunda based uopn what mantic was up to. Deleted by Moderator

Now, centurio. You may believe what you wish. However I would be highly surprised if any company did not pay attention to who is competing for their market share.

You made stuff up by saying no one on tmp is interested in mantic products.

Beast. It is new, in that the older supplements were not released at the same time as the boxed game. They were released later. Necromunda and it's supplement appear to be being released at the same time this time around.

Personal logo Pictors Studio Sponsoring Member of TMP01 Nov 2017 7:21 a.m. PST

Here is the cover for Gang War:

link

It looks like the art is going to be top-notch, even better than the previous edition I think.

Also it looks like BL is going to be republishing the Necromunda novels:

link

most of which I've heard are very good.

Earl of the North01 Nov 2017 7:21 a.m. PST

I would comment on this, but this seems to be another 'I have a theory, I am right and everybody else is dumb' topic so I'll pass…..looking forward to Star Saga though.

The H Man01 Nov 2017 7:21 a.m. PST

TMP link

For centurio and anyone else. My topic on the star saga game.

The H Man01 Nov 2017 7:24 a.m. PST

Perhaps you are earl. Considering I just said my theory had not been proven.

basileus6601 Nov 2017 7:27 a.m. PST

It's easier than that.

GW's new CEO did order a market survey when he took his post. The results were that target audience was all for games that could be played out right off the box. Then, in order to retain their customer base -"veterans"- it was decided to add expansions in the form of cheap, softback, books -Blood Bowl Season books are a case in point- that would cater for that veteran target audience. Finally, make the game relatively "cheap" for the stuff it includes in the starter set, and you will have a winner.

GW has been testing this release system for a while now (since the first box for the Horus Heresy), and it works. It has expanded the customer base, it has spiked sales and most of its customers are happy with their purchases.

Personal logo Pictors Studio Sponsoring Member of TMP01 Nov 2017 7:29 a.m. PST

There are some really cool videos on painting on the Necromunda site too.

Here is one on painting Escher:

YouTube link

and another one on painting the scenery:

YouTube link

Earl of the North01 Nov 2017 7:41 a.m. PST

Perhaps you are earl. Considering I just said my theory had not been proven.

I was referencing your other recent GW 'theory', since this is the second recent topic I've read where you have followed the same pattern.

Deleted by Moderator

On Necromunda….

Price wise what is Necromunda expected to retail at?

Seems like its two squads of miniatures, some plastic scenery, a rule book and some boards. So less than the other GW 'boardgames' like Deathwatch?

Earl of the North01 Nov 2017 7:51 a.m. PST

$125.00 USD….assuming that something like £95.00 GBP, seems like Star Saga going to be a much better deal for me.

Centurio Prime01 Nov 2017 8:13 a.m. PST

The H man, I said that

"GW is not following Mantic, I doubt its even a blip on the radar to them.

More conspiracy theories when the answer is simply that they are a (relatively) large company with a successful formula for delivering stuff people (outside of TMP) like."

I did not say that few people on TMP like Mantic games. I implied that there are not a lot of people who like GW products on TMP.

If you thought that my statement was referring to Mantic, you are the one who needs to work on reading comprehension.

alpha3six01 Nov 2017 8:55 a.m. PST

In terms of timing, for the last 2 years GW has released a highly anticipated boardgame with highly-sought after plastic minis late in the year (Betrayal at Calth, Burning of Prospero).

This year, it seems like a theoretical third Horus Heresy game has been superseded by the return of Necromunda.

basileus6601 Nov 2017 10:34 a.m. PST

By the way, if GW is looking behind its shoulder for someone it would be Fantasy Flight and its upcoming Star Wars: Legion.

Earl of the North01 Nov 2017 11:20 a.m. PST

Having seen this unboxing YouTube link I'm thinking that Star Saga is more in the vein of Imperial Assault, individual heroes (in this case Mercs instead of rebels) completing story missions against a force of minions and bosses.

So I'm unsure why GW would want to release a Necromunda Boardgame to compete with a smaller company producing a different style of boardgame. Now if GW suddenly decided out of the blue to produce a similar game where individual (lets say Inquisitors) heroes did something very similar just when Star Saga was due to be released this theory might be on to something.

Personal logo Pictors Studio Sponsoring Member of TMP01 Nov 2017 11:24 a.m. PST

Yeah, I would think that FF would be the real threat if there is one.

"$125.00 USD….assuming that something like £95.00 GBP GBP, seems like Star Saga going to be a much better deal for me."

Maybe, but the quality of the miniatures has to be factored in in addition to the number.

And when you look at it, with inflation included, the original Necromunda set was $75 USD when I bought it in Dec. 1995. It would be $120 USD now, pretty close to the price of the new set.

I think the terrain was better in the original by far than what is in the new one but I think the minis in the old one aren't even close to what is in the new one.

It is tough to say which was/is the better value. At the time I had next to no terrain so that was worth a lot. Now I have a ton of terrain, with this in mind, and I'm more interested in the miniatures.

So I guess 19 year old me vs. 41 year old me are getting a good value in both games for what we need at the time.

Earl of the North01 Nov 2017 11:35 a.m. PST

I'm not bashing GW Pictors, if I place the two product side by side I'll go with Star Saga because I prefer the mantic designs over GW and as a plus I get a fair bit of scenery thrown in, while also being cheaper allowing me to buy more stuff.

I'm long past the point where I feel the need to bash GW constantly, which strangely has led to me being labelled a GW fan boy at times.

Personal logo Pictors Studio Sponsoring Member of TMP01 Nov 2017 1:15 p.m. PST

I didn't think you were bashing GW. Style and taste are two things that I think need to be kept in mind.

These are subjective things. For me the GW and Mantic stuff both look pretty cool. I like Necromunda, it was the first big GW boxed set that I got and I have a lot of nostalgia for it. We still pull it out from time to time to play. A new edition with, in my opinion, better figures, will be great.

The terrain in the Star Saga boxed set certainly seems more interesting than the stuff in the new Necromunda set, if they sell it alone I will probably buy some eventually simply because it will go really well with my bug hunt corridors.

It would make great furniture for a lot of the rooms.

But that was my point with showing the difference between the two Necromunda sets too in a way.

One had some pluses over the other. It is just that, at this time in my life, I would prefer the new set over the old one.

Deadles01 Nov 2017 2:40 p.m. PST

It looks like the art is going to be top-notch, even better than the previous edition I think.

This bit is a little bit subjective. New art is "technically better" but I prefer the old style cause it was more gritty cyber punk, more comic book ala Judge Dredd and just oozed ultra violence.

A lot of modern GW art is boring. There's no soul to it.


Yeah, that was also the case with 2nd* and 3rd edition. So, going back nearly thirty years, nothing new here.

You at least got the terrain rules with the game (ie the whole core game). Oh and you got a lot more terrain.

And here in Australia it's never a $20 USD book. Blood Bowl Death Zone 1 is USD$31 (AUD$40) and Death Zone 2 is $38.37 USD (AUD$50).

Credit where's credit due though I thought the Bloodbowl starter box was good value and got one.

Also new 40K Indexes are only US$31 ($40) as opposed to US$53 (AUD$70) for older single army codices.

I still wish the price of minis came down though they are too expensive for what they are (e.g. 5 Genestealer leadership models = US$80 (AUD$105).

Earl of the North01 Nov 2017 3:48 p.m. PST

Just thought I'd point that out Pictor, since for some your either a fanboy or a basher or to put it another way a lover or a hater of GW.

Centurio Prime01 Nov 2017 4:37 p.m. PST

the Star Saga miniatures look pretty good, and I would love to have the furniture and objective markers for my 40k city terrain.

Earl of the North02 Nov 2017 12:44 a.m. PST

I believe you could make a case that the success of Imperial Assault leads to Mantic bringing out Star Saga or the success of Deathwatch etc leads to Fantasy Flight bringing out Star Wars Legion.

Companies are going to look at what sells and say can we produce something similar to tap into that market.

The H Man04 Nov 2017 11:46 a.m. PST

True, and has not GW made a history for its self doing just that. Novels, films, characters, historical stuff.

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