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"What do we want from you producers?" Topic


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1,363 hits since 25 Oct 2017
©1994-2017 Bill Armintrout
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Personal logo deadhead Supporting Member of TMP26 Oct 2017 11:15 a.m. PST

I don't mean the low volume sales, of one figure.

(Such as Baring, on his horse, in LHS, from "the" painting, or Blucher trapped under his horse at Ligny, or that very short Corsican chap…he was not very tall surely…on that bridge at Lodi)

I admit I am referring to TOTS. (28mm scale, The One True Scale)

You weird chaps, working in smaller scales, have far better posed figures and castings/mouldings already.

No, I mean the times where they, well Perrys anyway, did really listen to us. I know how much we really all wanted Danes and Swedes…I used to lie awake nights thinking about Danish Light Dragoons ….for 1815?…but, seriously, we did moan about the lack of Gardes d'Honneur and Eclaireurs. We got them! As we did Gendarmes D'Elite (well I did anyway…brilliant)

Perrys have also begun to realise we might want stationary horses (long way to go yet).

I posted this three years ago and something did result.

Waddyawant?…they do seem to listen. Perrys do respond on this forum. Ged from Gringos40, Three Armies, Brigade Games Miniatures are all regular contributors.

What have we got to lose?

What is so glaringly obvious that will pay for our heroes to holiday off St Tropez in their own yacht?

Personal logo Mserafin Supporting Member of TMP26 Oct 2017 12:40 p.m. PST

French infanterie legere in campaign uniforms suitable for the Peninsula War. This seems a fairly odd omission, given that I can get figures for the Saxon dutchies.

Similarly appropriate Chasseurs a Cheval would also be appreciated.

In metal, of course, because I'm Old School. You can tell because I always say the same thing when this topic comes up.

Personal logo deadhead Supporting Member of TMP26 Oct 2017 12:45 p.m. PST

We can only try and try again…..

Laced chasseurs a cheval seems a recurring theme…..

A Dutchie is something you pass on de left hand side, filled with Ganja, BTW…! A Duchy you inherit from your Dad of course

Personal logo BrigadeGames Sponsoring Member of TMP26 Oct 2017 1:57 p.m. PST

We just released 5 more Spanish packs -

BG-NSP073 Napoleonic Spanish Guerrilla Cavalry Riders- Garrochista Lancers I (3)

BG-NSP074 Napoleonic Spanish Guerrilla Cavalry Riders- Garrochista Lancers II (3)

BG-NSP080 Napoleonic Spanish Cavalry Dragoon Command Riders – bicornes (3)

BG-NSP042 Napoleonic Spanish Rebels/Guerrillas Artillery Crew Loading (6)
BG-NSP043 Napoleonic Spanish Rebels/Guerrillas Artillery Crew Firing (6)

link

HappyHiker26 Oct 2017 1:57 p.m. PST

British ADC's, this is a favorirate of Lord Hill, but he is right.

4th Cuirassier26 Oct 2017 2:18 p.m. PST

Accurate 1805 Austrians line infantry.

wrgmr126 Oct 2017 3:53 p.m. PST

Calpe Prussian Cuirassiers! I've been waiting a looonnng time. Also Calpe Blucher, Von Bulow, etc.

Three Armies Supporting Member of TMP26 Oct 2017 4:46 p.m. PST

TBH Deadhead things like this dont mean a thing. It's the silent majority that shut up and pay up that rellay should determine what we manufacture next. If I had listened to forums like this I would never have made 1815 French, because nobody would have said they wanted any, but I can assure you without any doubt whatsoever 1815 French are my best seller by miles.

Personal logo Artilleryman Supporting Member of TMP27 Oct 2017 12:13 a.m. PST

Mounted horse artillerymen and marching foot gunners (the latter marching casually or helping push the guns). I like to have them as an option to place with limbered guns as they add to the atmosphere on the table. So far they only come from extensive conversions. Only Calpe and Foundry have a very limited number (two in fact).

Personal logo Flashman14 Supporting Member of TMP27 Oct 2017 12:57 a.m. PST

French voltigeur cornetist in greatcoat advancing while blowing calls.
Russian jaeger in greatcoats skirmishing in shakos

gunnertog27 Oct 2017 1:04 a.m. PST

French carabiniers a cheval, in both uniforms, done in metal.
I can't believe Perry's haven't done these before now.

Sebaar27 Oct 2017 1:47 a.m. PST

Proper figures for Westphalian or Neapolitan Guard units in 28mm.

4th Cuirassier27 Oct 2017 2:33 a.m. PST

@ Three Armies

I hear you. I hang out on various modelling fora and one dedicated to Airfix enthusiasts regularly runs polls of what they'd like Airfix to tool or re-tool next.

The Airfix aficionadi all want a 1/24 scale Boulton-Paul Defiant (Target Tug variant), they want a 1/48 Gloster Gamecock, they want a 1/600 HMS Dreadnought, they want Cold War jets with no combat history – all subjects that, if tooled, would shift probably a few hundred units, in total, ever.

A few years ago, Revell listened to this demographic and duly tooled the 1/32 Hawker Hunter for which they were clamouring. This kit Revell tried to sell for about £40.00 GBP Modelzone could barely give them away and to this day they go, slowly, for £12.00 GBP to £15.00 GBP on the 'bay.

Airfix largely ignores this constituency. Instead it steadily retools clapped-out moulds of subjects that have sold well for decades. Hence, recently, a new 1/72 Swordfish, Blenheim, B17, Wellington, etc. And it tools more and more and more Spitfires, because Spitfires sell. Probably there will soon be an Airfix tool of every mark of Spitfire ever, in both 1/72 and 1/48. Probably not all will be in production at the same time of course.

Waterloo figures are always going to sell. Austerlitz figures probably aren't, or if so, not as well. Waterloo was the battle of the epoch, it involved participants who spoke (and wrote it up in) three languages, two of which are widely-spoken globally, and it happened in western Europe, at a site you can visit in a couple of hours starting from any European city. After your visit, there is Brussels to hang out in for a pleasant weekend.

Austerlitz was Napoleon's classic triumph, and a better military microcosm / metaphor than Waterloo, but unfortunately for the chances of my getting accurate 1805 Austrians, it has none of Waterloo's other plusses. The other side spoke German and Russian, there are about four books on it, the battlefield was behind the Iron Curtain until 1990, and although it now isn't, there's nothing else nearby to see. Eylau same thing, Friedland same thing. Even Wagram same thing actually. There is Vienna, but because there's Vienna, there's not a lot of Wagram any more.

When I were a nipper 40 years ago, we had high street hobby shops that sold 25mm Hinchliffe figures, and maybe some Minifigs. Greenwood & Ball I never saw in the metal – very recherché. Today the shops have basically gone, but you can get 28mm Austrian limbers, we get free uniform and orbat information for the asking, I can discuss teenage nurses with Deadhead à propos of not a lot, and the Monty Python sketch where you can pay to have an argument with someone has actually come true, except you don't have to pay. We must not repine.

Footslogger27 Oct 2017 2:51 a.m. PST

A new impetus for plastic figures – Prussian, Austrian and Russian cavalry.

In metal, the medium sized German states – Hesse-Darmstadt and the like. It seems mad that you can get troops from the Markgraviate of Flugelhorn or whatever, but not so much of the ones the next size down from the biggies like Bavaria, Saxony, Poland etc.

von Winterfeldt27 Oct 2017 3:09 a.m. PST

well researched miniatures, also good in poses and equipment, well sculpted and complete ranges.

Personal logo deadhead Supporting Member of TMP27 Oct 2017 4:23 a.m. PST

How I agree on Horse Artillery crews actually on horses….or Carabiniers (in Cuirasses any way)…or British ADCs.

What Three Armies came up was something different. Yes. just more French Infantry, but in a different pose to most….and highly detailed. Obviously French footsloggers will sell in thousands, Lithuanian Tartars are more of a "niche" product.

we are indeed lucky to have both. Loved 4th C's posting

wrgmr127 Oct 2017 7:47 a.m. PST

Three Armies is correct. Once Peter at Calpe was finished his Prussians he did some Saxons. Guessing these did not sell that well, he started late war French.
Agreed 4th Cuirassier's post was great.

Empires at War Sponsoring Member of TMP27 Oct 2017 9:17 a.m. PST

If only Peter would do Saxon heavy cavalry they would sell by the truckload.

MSU John27 Oct 2017 10:10 a.m. PST

Confederation of the Rhine artillery.

Three Armies Supporting Member of TMP27 Oct 2017 10:27 a.m. PST

$th Curassier, in truth it's sad, I'd love to sculpt all the rare stuff and I will, but get rich on it is NEVER going to happen, in fact I will most definitely lose. I still cant believe there are idiots that believe that plastic Prussian Russian or Austrian cavalry would actually sell in enough numbers to pay for the moulds! One day one mug will make some I'm sure and get his fingers burnt.

Sebaar27 Oct 2017 11:08 a.m. PST

How about plastic Prussian calvary in Litevka coats? From one box could be possible to make Dragons, Ulans and Landwerh calvary, 3in1.

Also plastic Cossacks could be nice and popular box….

4th Cuirassier27 Oct 2017 12:13 p.m. PST

@ Three Armies

Probably the only way to do this is to think forward and design figures that can be repurposed by swapping out horses and heads. It's why the Historex range is so superfiially huge. There are a small handful of core parts from which almost any troop type can be contrived.

So your Horse Grenadiers are your elite company dragoons are your Gendarmes d'Elite. Your British heavy dragoon torso becomes, with just a head choice, a Life Guard, a Scots Grey or a heavy dragoon. Your French dragoon with a Life Guard head becomes a Belgian carabinier.

Of course the faff of designing figures in this way may very well not be worth the minimal extra sales.

nsolomon9927 Oct 2017 7:46 p.m. PST

Gosh, how can it be "the one true scale" when its missing all this stuff – that is already available in 15/18mm. :)

Mick the Metalsmith28 Oct 2017 4:40 a.m. PST

Plastic 15s.

Personal logo Ooh Rah Supporting Member of TMP28 Oct 2017 5:48 a.m. PST

I've been able to find excellent march attack line Voltigeurs in bicorn for 1805-07 from Perry and Three Armies. I wish they would make line Voltigeur skirmishers in bicorn as well as march attack poses.

Perry has FN 167 Voltigeurs, march attack, in bicorn with pompoms. They are great. but no corresponding Voltigeur skirmishers.

Three Armies has FNF023 Grenadiers/voltigeurs 1800-1806 in bicorn with plumes. Again, great figures, but no corresponding skirmishers.

I have found substitutes.

Brigade Games has BG-NFR050 French Legere Chasseurs Skirmishing, which work with the Perry figures, except the BG figures don't have pompoms and the Perry figures do. I added pompoms with green stuff, but not too pleased with my sculpting ability.

Eureka has 100WFR028 Grenadier, bicorne, firing & loading that I use with Three Armies. I scraped off the grenade emblem on the ammo pouch so they will pass as Voltigeurs. Also, I had to cut plumes from extra Warlord figures to replace the pompoms on the Eureka figures. The plumes turned out pretty well since I didn't have to sculpt them.

Added: Brigade Games, Eureka, and Front Rank are good sources for voltigeur in bicorn for 1805-07. They have figures in march attack and skirmishing poses.

Personal logo BrigadeGames Sponsoring Member of TMP29 Oct 2017 10:38 a.m. PST

"Brigade Games has BG-NFR050 French Legere Chasseurs Skirmishing, which work with the Perry figures, except the BG figures don't have pompoms and the Perry figures do. I added pompoms with green stuff, but not too pleased with my sculpting ability."

The Egypt range was done in "on campaign" uniforms, hence no pompoms.

link

Personal logo Ooh Rah Supporting Member of TMP29 Oct 2017 6:55 p.m. PST

My apologies if my post sounded like criticism of Brigade Games fine figures. To clarify, I am extremely pleased with all of their figures that I have bought. I have entire infantry battalions of them for my 1805-07 project, and I did not need to find any substitutes from other producers.

In addition, I am mixing some Brigade Games figures in the same units with Perry figures and Victrix plastic figures, and I think they look great together. Two examples. First, I like a Sapeur in my battalions, and the pioneer from BG-NFR191 looks great with Victrix figures. Second, I like grenadiers in bearskin, but Perry grenadiers are in bicorn with bearskins stowed on packs instead of worn. I am using BG-NFR007 for grenadiers in my Perry units.

Since Perry does not make 1805-07 Voltigeur skirmishers, I had to find a substitute. The Brigade Games Chasseurs skirmishing are the closest match I could find to the Perry figures. The only reason I added pompoms was so that the BG skirmishers would look like they came from the same unit as the Perry marching figures.

4th Cuirassier30 Oct 2017 1:48 a.m. PST

Something that used to puzzle me was why in fact 1815 French (in particular) sell so reliably. In the Bardin uniform, these figures were really only dressed for one four-day, four-battle campaign. And if that campaign itself were the draw, Dutch-Belgian flanquers and Prussian reserve infantry would also be flying off the shelves, which they're not.

The answer I guess is that whatever French you collect, you want them to be fit to fight the defining battle of the era should the urge overtake you. Hence I would think there are quite a lot of Austerlitz, Wagram, and Borodino refights featuring Waterloo-attired French line infantry. If your rules are in terms of stands rather than companies, you can get away with this organisationally.

This must also explain why there are so many Scots Greys available. Tactically they're as valuable as any British heavy dragoon unit, so you can't be accusing of trying to gain advantage by playing them. So if you're having heavy dragoons you have the cool ones on white horses. Which will also do for Waterloo.

What really baffles me is the Old Guard. You can justify maybe one Old Guard unit on your table no matter how big the table. So one in five, or twenty, or forty battalions. Old Guard should therefore barely sell, but I bet they sell ridiculously well.

To answer Deadhead's original question – what I want is ranges that are

1/ complete for all the key troop types a balanced army requires, including limbers for the guns, with
2/ a consistent sculpting style and figure size, that are
3/ accurate of uniform for at least one specific campaign.

I started out 40 odd years ago with Airfix; only 3 was met for British, none was met for the French. I then switched to Hinchliffe which failed on 2, and I'm now on Elite Miniatures and Eureka which between them cover 1 but miss out on 2 and 3.

HappyHiker30 Oct 2017 8:15 a.m. PST

@4th Cuirassier – As a relative Newbie to wargamming and a complete novice at napoleonics, I've spent the year painting up some waterloo figures. Why waterloo, for no other reason than warlord games did a starter set. I've bought lots of other sets to build up the army, but all based on a hollywood view. So the french will probably have 10 infantry batallions – 2 of which will be old guard, because thats how many you can build from a victrix plastic set and cos they're cool.2 battalions will be pre-bardin because I got bored of great coats. The British will have 7 battalions(incl. East(South) Essex and the 95th rifles and scots greys as cavalry because they're famous), only 1 of which will be Dutch and one of Havovarions – because you cant use them for much apart from waterloo. The Prussians will have 3 battalions – to make 10 a piece. 95th rifles will go in the farmhouse, because I havent got any KGL. I'll probably do a grand watrloo battle once or twice with everyone on the table and the rest of the time play 'Senarios for all ages' senarios – so not really based on historic battles. Yeah I know, Its no doubt terribly cliqued.

But I make no apologise for this, I knew nothing about napolionics when I started, now I know a bit more. Each batallion is as accuarate as I could make it, but as a whole army its not really.I suspect anyone getting in to this probably does the same. In hind sight I'd probably do Austrians and Austerlitz. I'm rather pleased with myself that I've actually managed to paint this much, I do wonder how many people buy a bunch of figures and never finish.

So the point I'm trying to make is, alot of sales are probably driven by newbies or Dillettants to the period with only a scant knowledge of the armies involved.(Like Me) And my Belgic shakoes will absolutlely be fighting in the Pennisular. But then again last year we had a Lego Obi-Wan kenobi commanding the Lancashire Rose's forces agasint Orcs.(I do apologise for that though)

Hopefully I wont get banned from the forum for such Hearsay, and I bet both ignorance and enthusiasm of the newbies is what keeps the miniature companies afloat and able to produce more niche products for the more serious collector. So don't despair, and don't laugh at us too much, at least we're not collecting Space Marines :-)

Personal logo deadhead Supporting Member of TMP30 Oct 2017 9:38 a.m. PST

Happy Hiker….you are a star.

Great posting and it is thanks to enthusiasts like you that we button counters can indulge ourselves wondering about the minutiae of uniforms (worn for one of the shortest "major" campaigns of that decade, let alone the entire century).

Personal logo BrigadeGames Sponsoring Member of TMP30 Oct 2017 9:40 a.m. PST

"Ooh Rah"
I didn't take it that way. I was just posting a clarification.

Glad to see you love the figures.

Personal logo BrigadeGames Sponsoring Member of TMP30 Oct 2017 9:44 a.m. PST

If us producers were able to predict what everyone would buy, we would all be retired with our own private island by now.

As ThreeArmies said, if everyone who said they want something actually bought it, then a lot more figures would be made.

I still take suggestions, but also go with my own gut feeling about what will sell mixed with what I want to see get produced.

4th Cuirassier30 Oct 2017 3:03 p.m. PST

@ Happy Hiker

You've got exactly the right attitude. When all's said and done, our armies are inaccurate because 10 battalions aren't an army. Once you accept that, everything else follows. I'm currently re-accumulating Airfix Waterloo French, which are "French" only inasmuch that's what they most resemble, vaguely. Do I care? Nah.

Three Armies Supporting Member of TMP30 Oct 2017 3:53 p.m. PST

Happy hiker, Spot on correct. Now to raid the kids lego….

von Winterfeldt31 Oct 2017 1:17 a.m. PST

from the commercial side, I understand that every producer must have a 1815 line.

I started similar – influenced by Airfix of course, but then it is much more to detect than 1815 and fortunately some producers go much beyond commercial interest alone, like the Perrys, Confederation of the Rhine units for example.

Three Armies Supporting Member of TMP02 Nov 2017 4:24 p.m. PST

If i had taken a commercial option then there is no way I would have started my 1806 range. It is wrong to assume we are driven by commerce alone, but to pay for the moulds at least would be nice. I can count on my hands the number of 1806 Prussian battalions I have sold in this my first year since Feb 2017.

Marc at work03 Nov 2017 5:25 a.m. PST

I have some Prussian 1806 battalions – sadly for Three Armies, mine are 1/72. I also have Saxons in bicornes, and Russians with tall busch plumes. I like the 1805-7 period, and wish I could buy more.

But Waterloo is the main (only) player in town, with 1/72 as much as you 28mm fans.

So I am with Happy Hiker – that is not a bad argument/theory on how to approach collecting a Naps army or two.

Personal logo deadhead Supporting Member of TMP03 Nov 2017 11:16 a.m. PST

I thought Three Armies message was very insightful.

If only…if only…we could hear from more manufacturers like this.. I do not just mean "Cool, glad you like them" to push them back to the top of the pile. I mean tell us more about the trials and tribulations of trying to deal with us as fickle customers.

I would have thought there was huge interest in earlier Prussian infantry, as I do now accept that there was some suggestion of another Napoleonic War before 1815…..and such figures are far from abundant.

Is the problem that those who are interested already have their fill of such units and instead want to travel the country fighting with them?

Is the problem folk like me who beg Perrys for Eclaireurs and Gardes d'Honneur and still have not ordered them (the backlog of the lead mountain and overtime work)?

There has been a recurring theme recently that, whatever we insist we dream of, is not what we maybe actually pay for in the end.

So how do Perrys get away with "LGI 239; Lithuanian Garde Pontoniers a Cheval command"? I really would buy them…..but only on standing horses.

Lambert Supporting Member of TMP03 Nov 2017 12:04 p.m. PST

Really interesting thread. I'm in the midst of painting some Three Armies French (standing at ease) and Perry Gardes d'Honneur (on standing horses) and both sets are a joy to paint. I chose them mainly because I like the poses. I don't wargame, just enjoy collecting and painting different units and these were irresistible.
Just out of interest, how many of a metal 28mm figure would a manufacturer need to sell to make sculpting and moulding worthwhile? Say a mounted artilleryman?

Personal logo deadhead Supporting Member of TMP04 Nov 2017 6:04 a.m. PST

Brilliant question. I do hope someone is prepared to share that.

Much more difficult I suspect, but let me also try to ask about the investment in plastics. I mean the hard plastics of Perry, Warlord, Victrix in 28mm. A box of such on a few sprues. I know the answer is massive expense, but how many sales to break even…if not too commercially sensitive to answer!

4th Cuirassier04 Nov 2017 11:31 a.m. PST

I can't figure out how any figure of Napoleon makes money. Nobody needs more than one, and while you might have more than one – thin Elvis, fat Elvis, and so on – nobody's got 30-figure units of Napoleon.

Have they.

Lambert Supporting Member of TMP04 Nov 2017 12:09 p.m. PST

True…but assuming every Napoleonic enthusiast has at least one Napoleon (I have 4 or 5),that might still add up to many sales. The reason for buying more than one is that a better version is produced – like the recent Gringos figure.
It's fascinating to hear the manufacturers' views on this topic. If you knew that a particular figure – like a mounted artilleryman (apologies for mentioning it again, but there is lack of availability) – would sell 500, would that be worthwhile doing? Could we crowdfund it through advance sales?

Personal logo deadhead Supporting Member of TMP04 Nov 2017 4:09 p.m. PST

All this is telling us is how much this question is fascinating us all.

Whether dice throwers or modellers, we are unlikely to buy more than one or two Boneys…(excepting that some new release shifts the goal posts).

The mounted horse artillery is slightly different….(but oh yes, how badly needed they are …more than Scandinavian Horse Genie Pontoniers…Legere obviously..du Perrys)

As Lambert asked….give us some numbers.

You guys have to make a living. Easy for me. Folk come in, my gasman keeps them alive, he/she wakes them up ,when I have done something, which involves no Greenstuff, but much use of a microscope and a drill or a laser…..

I suspect the economics are very different!

What does it take to produce one metal figure and make any profit of course….

of a "hero" (let us say a famous General, which will sell one each to any enthusiast)

of a uniquely posed infantryman…(folk might buy a few of them)

of a bunch of them (to make a line in slightly different poses…different from anyone else's work)

????

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