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"Moscow Dragoons 1805-1807" Topic


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946 hits since 25 Oct 2017
©1994-2017 Bill Armintrout
Comments or corrections?

Gunfreak Supporting Member of TMP26 Oct 2017 5:41 a.m. PST

Brigade Games Russians.
link

picture

Stoppage26 Oct 2017 7:43 a.m. PST

Really great figures.

As an aside should the officer's raupe be a mix of black and orange; similarly the nco's be a mix of orange and white?

I'm thinking of these:

link

steamingdave4726 Oct 2017 7:57 a.m. PST

Wasn't 5th squadron of Russian heavy cavalry usually a depot squadron at this time?

Gunfreak Supporting Member of TMP26 Oct 2017 8:10 a.m. PST

Yes, NCOs and Officers had white/black/orange code.

I think the 5th depot squadron was post 1809.

Sho Boki26 Oct 2017 9:10 a.m. PST

Great! But with one big mistake.
Your uniforms are dark green, from 1808 and later.

Gunfreak Supporting Member of TMP26 Oct 2017 9:15 a.m. PST

All my illustrations show them as dark green. Both infantry and Dragoons.

Sho Boki26 Oct 2017 9:24 a.m. PST

It is possible, that I am wrong and remember incorrectly.
Must consult with sources.
But at least plates from Frederic Pouvesle shows them in light green.

Sho Boki26 Oct 2017 9:28 a.m. PST

Also Haythornthwaite wrote, that from 1803 to 1807 the uniform was light green.

Ulanovich. Army Dragoons 1801-1825. Light green.

Nafziger. The Russian Army 1800 – 1815.
"Their uniform was the same green that was worn by the jagers."
And we know, that jagers wore light green.

This is from the first books, I checked.
I doubt, that I may found different descriptions.

Gunfreak Supporting Member of TMP26 Oct 2017 9:38 a.m. PST

I've seen it writen but never in illustrations. I've simply assumed by "light green" they've ment lighter then the post 1808 green which was almost black) and I've painted them somewhat lighter then 1808 green.

Personal logo jeffreyw3 Supporting Member of TMP26 Oct 2017 10:25 a.m. PST

Mmmm…Leonov, Popov & Kibovskii have pics of two actual jackets, and they're lighter green than the later versions, but with dust and grime, you're good.

Sho Boki26 Oct 2017 10:30 a.m. PST

Yes, this is true, that Dragoons are not showed mutch.
Here are one picture..


11 is Jager.
Dragoon is 14.
15 is not dragoon, but Horse Artillery, dark green.

This is from: Kosmolinsky "FROM AUSTERLIZ TO TILZIT"

Gunfreak Supporting Member of TMP26 Oct 2017 10:40 a.m. PST

Very interesting. Those are far lighter than any other illustration I've seen.
And that the jegers too have such light green…

Sho Boki26 Oct 2017 10:50 a.m. PST

And this is from Frederic Pouvesle.

Personal logo jeffreyw3 Supporting Member of TMP26 Oct 2017 11:03 a.m. PST

The green on the picture of the actual jacket in Leonov is very close to Vallejo 968 Flat Green.

von Winterfeldt26 Oct 2017 11:27 a.m. PST

maybe this helps – not dragoons – but showing nicely the light green

theminiaturespage.com

‌"TMP link

Widowson26 Oct 2017 11:31 a.m. PST

I think you got the officer's caterpillar crest wrong. I believe it should be black with a white tip and an orange stripe separating the two.

The NCO crest should have a black border around the orange stripe – like the illustration immediately above sorta.

And yeah Light green jackets in this period.

One thing about the figures they seem to have simple stirrup guards on their sabers. The early saber guard was very unique. Kind of a half basket affair. I'm trying to figure out how to make them out of wire for my converted 1/72 cuirassiers (and dragoons).

Widowson26 Oct 2017 11:35 a.m. PST

Sho Boki – where did you get that illustration. It's really helpful and would be a great reference. Please share.

Gunfreak Supporting Member of TMP26 Oct 2017 11:57 a.m. PST

Widownson.

No my sources and this illustration shows white/orange/black.

Sho Boki26 Oct 2017 11:59 a.m. PST

You mean Pouvesle?
It is from old Histofig, but now are visible on Printerest.
Another one are from some russian forum, where Kosmolinsky's article was discussed. I don't saved this address.
I simply googled for pictures.

Von Winterfeldt.
I guess, that this figure on your picture is from Guard Horse Artillery?
What mean, that this is dark green uniform.

von Winterfeldt26 Oct 2017 12:03 p.m. PST

looks light green to me compared with other prints of this series.
They are by Orlovski, I will send you directly some information

Widowson26 Oct 2017 12:05 p.m. PST

Gunfreak,

I just checked that very same source! Yeah, it looks like you got it right.

von Winterfeldt26 Oct 2017 12:12 p.m. PST

@gunfreak

you deserve better sources

ERROR - no url for link

Sho Boki26 Oct 2017 12:27 p.m. PST

Thanks, von Winterfeldt!
Yes, as I guessed, these are Guard Horse Artillery and therefore dark green.

Sho Boki26 Oct 2017 12:38 p.m. PST

Here we may compare the regular dark green and jaeger (dragoon) light green..

Personal logo jeffreyw3 Supporting Member of TMP26 Oct 2017 12:43 p.m. PST

Scroll to the right a bit… link

von Winterfeldt27 Oct 2017 3:15 a.m. PST

thanks – very good link

Marc at work28 Oct 2017 1:57 p.m. PST

Now I'm confused. One picture has a black comb and white tip, but the other one has a white comb with black tip. Please help me get this clear. Thanks

Prince of Essling Supporting Member of TMP28 Oct 2017 4:24 p.m. PST

According to Viskovatov
7 November 1807 In all Dragoon regiments, the light-green colour of the coat is changed to dark green.
Some illustrations from Volume 11 showing troopers and an officer:
link
link
link
link

Marc at work29 Oct 2017 12:49 a.m. PST

So officer would be a white comb, orange band and black tip.

Would NCO's have that reversed?

Prince of Essling Supporting Member of TMP29 Oct 2017 1:25 a.m. PST

Again from Viskavotov while this relates to Cuirassiers, the same principles were applied to the Dragoons when they were ordered to adopted the helmet (18 October 1803 In Dragoon regiments, all combatant ranks are given helmets in place of hats, of the same pattern as established at this time for Cuirassier regiments. Officers' hats are ordered to be worn only when off duty.):

18 October 1803 In Cuirassier regiments all combatant ranks, beginning with General Officers, are ordered to wear helmets [kaski], of black, lacquered pompovyi [? of unknown meaning M.C.] leather, consisting of a round crown with visors in front and in back, two ear pieces on the sides, and a comb for a thick plume of hair, which is black for privates (Illus. 1413). For noncommissioned officers the plume is black with a white top that has one orange and two black stripes down the middle (Illus. 1413 and 1414); for trumpeters red (Illus. 1414); for staff-trumpeters red with the same top as for noncommissioned officers; for officers white with a black top with an orange stripe next to it (Illus. 1415). The front of the helmet, starting from the top of the comb down to the visor, is decorated with a brass plate stamped with a double-headed eagle. The lower edge of the front visor is trimmed with a brass strip, doubled over. On the sides, over the ear pieces, are fixed two brass knobs, and on the inside are sewn (for covering the ears in winter weather) two cloth flaps, to which are tied leather straps, as for the infantry shakos established in 1803. At first, these straps were fastened over the flaps only in winter weather, but later this was done in any weather (9). In this same year, the hats prescribed for field and company-grade officers of Cuirassier regiments when not on duty are ordered to be of the pattern confirmed at this time for field and company-grade officers of the infantry, i.e. with a small button loop of narrow galloon and a high plume.

Some illustrations to assist -
link
link
link

Gunfreak Supporting Member of TMP29 Oct 2017 3:37 a.m. PST

Would NCO's have that reversed?

Not exactly (you can see my standard barer is a NCO)
Black comb white tip. But the orange stripe is horizontal stripe down the centre of the white tip.

ferg98129 Oct 2017 6:03 a.m. PST

Well I like them anyway

Regards,

J

Le Breton29 Oct 2017 6:32 a.m. PST

"изъ черной, лакированной, пумповой кожи"
"iz chernoy, lakirovannoy, pumpovoy kozhi"
"of black, laquered, sole leather"

From the German "Pfundleder" or "Pfund-Leder", literally "pound-leather" – extra heavy leather for the making of soles of shoes or boots, and sold by the pound instead of by an area measurement.

link
link

Prince of Essling Supporting Member of TMP29 Oct 2017 8:21 a.m. PST

Thanks Le Breton for the clarification.

I should of course have attributed the translations above to Mark Conrad. See his excellent site at link

4th Cuirassier30 Oct 2017 2:04 a.m. PST

Must be the best-dressed dragoons of any army. Love the really really dark green. If I were doing an imagination my coat colour would be dark blue-green, a colour nobody seems to have used.

Prince of Essling Supporting Member of TMP30 Oct 2017 5:35 a.m. PST

@4th Cuirassier,

From the examples of Russian uniforms in their 1812 Moscow exhibition, you would not reach the conclusion that the green uniforms were green – they did in fact have a rather bluish tinge (which I assumed was due to dye fade???).

4th Cuirassier30 Oct 2017 6:10 a.m. PST

@ P o E

I reckon so. In the other thread about Waterloo artefacts, there is a photo of Marbot's uniform jacket, which in 1815 was green. Now it's blue. It looks to me like the original green was achieved by dyeing it both blue and yellow, and the yellow hasn't lasted. The loss of the yellow would make green turn blue via blue-green, which may explain the examples you've seen.

The other thing that's noticeable about old uniforms right up to WW1 is how un-ironed they look. They all look like they could do with a good press. This is post-chemical dyes, so presumably, this is because before dry cleaning, even a very dressy unit could only look so spick and spam.

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