"Moscow Dragoons 1805-1807" Topic

Brigade Games Russians.
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Really great figures.

As an aside should the officer's raupe be a mix of black and orange; similarly the nco's be a mix of orange and white?

I'm thinking of these:

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Wasn't 5th squadron of Russian heavy cavalry usually a depot squadron at this time?

Yes, NCOs and Officers had white/black/orange code.

I think the 5th depot squadron was post 1809.

Great! But with one big mistake.
Your uniforms are dark green, from 1808 and later.

All my illustrations show them as dark green. Both infantry and Dragoons.

It is possible, that I am wrong and remember incorrectly.
Must consult with sources.
But at least plates from Frederic Pouvesle shows them in light green.

Also Haythornthwaite wrote, that from 1803 to 1807 the uniform was light green.

Ulanovich. Army Dragoons 1801-1825. – Light green.

Nafziger. The Russian Army 1800 – 1815.
"Their uniform was the same green that was worn by the jagers."
And we know, that jagers wore light green.

This is from the first books, I checked.
I doubt, that I may found different descriptions.

I've seen it writen but never in illustrations. I've simply assumed by "light green" they've ment lighter then the post 1808 green which was almost black) and I've painted them somewhat lighter then 1808 green.

Mmmm…Leonov, Popov & Kibovskii have pics of two actual jackets, and they're lighter green than the later versions, but with dust and grime, you're good.

Yes, this is true, that Dragoons are not showed mutch.
Here are one picture..

11 is Jager.
Dragoon is 14.
15 is not dragoon, but Horse Artillery, dark green.

This is from: Kosmolinsky "FROM AUSTERLIZ TO TILZIT"

Very interesting. Those are far lighter than any other illustration I've seen.
And that the jegers too have such light green…

And this is from Frederic Pouvesle.

The green on the picture of the actual jacket in Leonov is very close to Vallejo 968 Flat Green.

maybe this helps – not dragoons – but showing nicely the light green

theminiaturespage.com

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I think you got the officer's caterpillar crest wrong. I believe it should be black with a white tip and an orange stripe separating the two.

The NCO crest should have a black border around the orange stripe – like the illustration immediately above – sorta.

And yeah – Light green jackets in this period.

One thing about the figures – they seem to have simple stirrup guards on their sabers. The early saber guard was very unique. Kind of a half basket affair. I'm trying to figure out how to make them out of wire for my converted 1/72 cuirassiers (and dragoons).

Sho Boki – where did you get that illustration. It's really helpful and would be a great reference. Please share.

Widownson.

No my sources and this illustration shows white/orange/black.

You mean Pouvesle?
It is from old Histofig, but now are visible on Printerest.
Another one are from some russian forum, where Kosmolinsky's article was discussed. I don't saved this address.
I simply googled for pictures.

Von Winterfeldt.
I guess, that this figure on your picture is from Guard Horse Artillery?
What mean, that this is dark green uniform.

looks light green to me compared with other prints of this series.
They are by Orlovski, I will send you directly some information

Gunfreak,

I just checked that very same source! Yeah, it looks like you got it right.

@gunfreak

you deserve better sources

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Thanks, von Winterfeldt!
Yes, as I guessed, these are Guard Horse Artillery and therefore dark green.

Here we may compare the regular dark green and jaeger (dragoon) light green..

Scroll to the right a bit… link

thanks – very good link

Now I'm confused. One picture has a black comb and white tip, but the other one has a white comb with black tip. Please help me get this clear. Thanks

According to Viskovatov
7 November 1807 — In all Dragoon regiments, the light-green colour of the coat is changed to dark green.
Some illustrations from Volume 11 showing troopers and an officer:
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So officer would be a white comb, orange band and black tip.

Would NCO's have that reversed?

Again from Viskavotov – while this relates to Cuirassiers, the same principles were applied to the Dragoons when they were ordered to adopted the helmet (18 October 1803— In Dragoon regiments, all combatant ranks are given helmets in place of hats, of the same pattern as established at this time for Cuirassier regiments. Officers' hats are ordered to be worn only when off duty.):

18 October 1803— In Cuirassier regiments all combatant ranks, beginning with General Officers, are ordered to wear helmets [kaski], of black, lacquered pompovyi [? of unknown meaning – M.C.] leather, consisting of a round crown with visors in front and in back, two ear pieces on the sides, and a comb for a thick plume of hair, which is black for privates (Illus. 1413). For noncommissioned officers the plume is black with a white top that has one orange and two black stripes down the middle (Illus. 1413 and 1414); for trumpeters — red (Illus. 1414); for staff-trumpeters — red with the same top as for noncommissioned officers; for officers — white with a black top with an orange stripe next to it (Illus. 1415). The front of the helmet, starting from the top of the comb down to the visor, is decorated with a brass plate stamped with a double-headed eagle. The lower edge of the front visor is trimmed with a brass strip, doubled over. On the sides, over the ear pieces, are fixed two brass knobs, and on the inside are sewn (for covering the ears in winter weather) two cloth flaps, to which are tied leather straps, as for the infantry shakos established in 1803. At first, these straps were fastened over the flaps only in winter weather, but later this was done in any weather (9). In this same year, the hats prescribed for field and company-grade officers of Cuirassier regiments when not on duty are ordered to be of the pattern confirmed at this time for field and company-grade officers of the infantry, i.e. with a small button loop of narrow galloon and a high plume.

Some illustrations to assist -
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Would NCO's have that reversed?

Not exactly (you can see my standard barer is a NCO)
Black comb white tip. But the orange stripe is horizontal stripe down the centre of the white tip.

Well I like them anyway

Regards,

J

"изъ черной, лакированной, пумповой кожи"
"iz chernoy, lakirovannoy, pumpovoy kozhi"
"of black, laquered, sole leather"

From the German "Pfundleder" or "Pfund-Leder", literally "pound-leather" – extra heavy leather for the making of soles of shoes or boots, and sold by the pound instead of by an area measurement.

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Thanks Le Breton for the clarification.

I should of course have attributed the translations above to Mark Conrad. See his excellent site at link

Must be the best-dressed dragoons of any army. Love the really really dark green. If I were doing an imagination my coat colour would be dark blue-green, a colour nobody seems to have used.

@4th Cuirassier,

From the examples of Russian uniforms in their 1812 Moscow exhibition, you would not reach the conclusion that the green uniforms were green – they did in fact have a rather bluish tinge (which I assumed was due to dye fade???).

@ P o E

I reckon so. In the other thread about Waterloo artefacts, there is a photo of Marbot's uniform jacket, which in 1815 was green. Now it's blue. It looks to me like the original green was achieved by dyeing it both blue and yellow, and the yellow hasn't lasted. The loss of the yellow would make green turn blue via blue-green, which may explain the examples you've seen.

The other thing that's noticeable about old uniforms right up to WW1 is how un-ironed they look. They all look like they could do with a good press. This is post-chemical dyes, so presumably, this is because before dry cleaning, even a very dressy unit could only look so spick and spam.