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Lolbat18 Jun 2005 2:07 p.m. PST

I just recently receive my copy of Warmaster Ancients and thought I'd post a quick review of the book and the rules.

The book is 144 pages and is filled with quite a few illustrations and an excellent number of shots of miniatures. If you are familiar with the Warmaster Fantasy rulebook the WMA rules have more illustrations, pictures and, most importantly, diagrams of the rules.

The book looks very good and is laid out in a very easy to read fashion. The main thing it lacks is an index. Not sure why as an index is quite simple to create using the various page layout programs available.

The rules are meant for 10/12mm figures (and 6mm as well) but there is an appendix for suggested changes to basing for larger scales.

The game has 25 army lists covering the periods from the Chariot/Biblical era to the Dark Ages. With the exception of the Chariot era, which has four, all the eras (Chariot, Ancient Greek, Rise of Rome and Dark Ages) have 7 or 8 army lists.

The army lists are very similar to the format used in Warmaster Fantasy (WF) but there are a sizable number of special rules to help describe and differentiate some of the units. So there are rules for heavy Cavalry, Skirmishers, Warbands and Maniples. None of the rules are overly complex and it shouldn't take too many games before players have the rules learned.

Basically the WMA rules are the same as WF with some very critical exceptions

1) Units can't receive more than 3 orders. No more cavalry charges sweeping across the board and into your flank for crushing attacks

2) Supporting infantry (one unit only) can accompany a charging unit. Either via orders or using initiative

3) Skirmishers can evade charges and shooting

4) Combat only lasts two rounds

5) Cavalry and Chariots are based along the long edge of the base unless they are Shock cavalry

Those five changes (there are more) are enough to rectify most of the issues that I have with the core Warmaster rules. In fact most of them eliminate most of the issues I have seen posted regarding the Warmaster game. Armies with high leadership will now no longer be able to create unrealistic sweeping advances across the board and cavalry is now only really effective when it is shock cavalry. Shock cavalry is quite rare in the WMA.

All in all the game is a significant change from the original Warmaster game and should provide a more balanced playing experience. So it retains the quick play value of Warmaster with changes to the rules to eliminate some of the problematic areas that caused Warmaster to sometimes be rather annoying to play.

And for less historically minded gamers (such as myself) it provides a good entry-point into Ancients gaming.

the trojan bunny18 Jun 2005 2:20 p.m. PST

Thanks for the write-up, looks like I have to buy it.

JT

fredrik18 Jun 2005 2:37 p.m. PST

Thanks for the review, sounds interesting!

One question comes to mind though; it is my understanding that the core rules contain army lists for about ten "major" armies that one would expect to see (romans, gauls etc), but are there any plans to expand the rules with additional armylists, on the lines of what has been done in WAB? Right now this concern is what keeps me from buying in to the system, since I don't want to be stuck with the few lists that made it into the book and a horde of unofficial (as in "not very playtested") lists off the net.

Cheers/Fredrik

Lolbat18 Jun 2005 2:50 p.m. PST

— it is my understanding that the core rules contain army lists for about ten "major" armies that one would expect to see (romans, gauls etc), but are there any plans to expand the rules with additional armylists, on the lines of what has been done in WAB?

The book has 25 lists and none of them are, to my mind, minor. The full list of armies is

1. Achaemenid Persian
2. Alexandrian Greek
3. Assyrian
4. Briton
5. Carthaginian
6. Dacian
7. Early Byzantine
8. Egyptian
9. Gallic
10. German
11. Greek
12. Hittite
13. Homeric
14. Hun
15. Imperial Roman
16. Indian
17. Late Achaemenid Persian
18. Late Roman
19. Norman
20. Norse
21. Parthian
22. Republican Roman
23. Sassanid Persian
24. Saxon
25. Successor

I don't think there is any official plan at this moment to expand the army lists from those available in the book but Rick P. has posted that he wants to epand the armies I jsut don't know if that will be via a PDF on the Warhammer Historical website or a new book.

I guess it depends on how sales go.

fredrik18 Jun 2005 3:01 p.m. PST

Thanks for the link pixelgeek, it appears as though the list is a bit more comprehensive than I had thought! :-)

Cheers/Fredrik

ironbull18 Jun 2005 6:10 p.m. PST

I understand the rules were designed with 10mm minatures in mind, however I have also heard that there are provisions for other scales. I'm curious about the possibility of playing these rules using 15mm minatures following the DBA/DBR/DBM basing stucture. Do the rules address this?

thanks
ironbull

Dn Jackson Supporting Member of TMP18 Jun 2005 6:30 p.m. PST

"I understand the rules were designed with 10mm minatures in mind, however I have also heard that there are provisions for other scales. I'm curious about the possibility of playing these rules using 15mm minatures following the DBA/DBR/DBM basing stucture. Do the rules address this?"

Yes, the rules do address it and suggest 40mm frontage.

Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian18 Jun 2005 8:00 p.m. PST

[Basically the WMA rules are the same as WF…]

Didn't you mean WM, not WF?

CaseyVA18 Jun 2005 8:06 p.m. PST

I don't see how the game would change from 6mm, 10mm, and 15mm as long as you kept everything on the same base size.

It's a gorgeous book and it's one of the few rulebooks I've picked up in a while that feels like it was worth the 35 dollars I spent on it.

Now to make a big order to OG and get some armies on the way :)

westphalia18 Jun 2005 8:33 p.m. PST

Good review. Most of the most grievous problems with WM seem to have been smoothed over in this version. I'm sure our group will dispense with the "no more than 3 orders" rule, though.

There are a lot of mistakes in some of the army menus, but that can be tweaked by the players. I thought the quality of painting was surprising; GW usually does a pretty good job of getting great-looking models in their books, but the majority of the models in the WMA book were very pedestrian. That's just eye-candy, though. :)

I wouldn't mind seeing a general "Medieval" supplement come out someday, and I'm a little curious to see if ACW and Nappy versions come down the pike if this first volume sells well.

Lolbat18 Jun 2005 8:36 p.m. PST

— Didn't you mean WM, not WF?

I'm using WF, Warmaster Fantasy, as I think that WM and WMA are too similar and could be mistaken as a typo.

NikkiB18 Jun 2005 9:46 p.m. PST

I'm wondering if there are any "non-traditional" rules like someone was carrying on about the other day.

CATenWolde19 Jun 2005 1:27 a.m. PST

Entirely an aside, but I love how "Homeric" has somehow become a historical era …

Judas Iscariot19 Jun 2005 3:05 a.m. PST

How do they do "Shock" troops in 15mm?

It would look pretty stupid (IMO) to have just ONE figure frontage on a 20mm frontage of a "Shock" base (As I understood it: Shock bases were 20x40 as opposed to the 40x20 bases of "Normal" units)

Now… Since it is pretty difficult to cram 2 cavalry figures across 20mm (It IS possible as many DBx lists have Cataphracts that are 4 to a base, so they technically have a frontage of 10mm each, but in reality it is pretty hard these days with scale creep causing the figures to get larger and larger…

AND… I also thought that some infantry units (Macedonian Phalangites or other Pike armed troops) would be mounted on a 20mm frontage.

Lastly… Do the Old Glory 10mm Pike and spear armed troops come with empty hands that need to be drilled out. I am hoping so since I loath cast on spears and pikes… They bend too easily.

Rich J19 Jun 2005 4:26 a.m. PST

This is a DRAFT look at the review which will be up on Wargames Journal this week sometime–I think the Journal one will have a few peoples views–not just mine ;-)


I must admit it is hard for me to give an impartial review of Warmaster Ancients as I love the rules they developed from – Warmaster. Now these were not everyone's cup of tea and had a couple of quirks that led to them being like Christmas and Birthdays all at once for the more ‘beardy' type of player. But to most people they provided an excellent, fast set of rules which have been adapted to many a period by different clubs and even into a WWII set of commercial rules (Blitzkrieg Commander). There has always been an ancients version around on the net but these were just army lists for the core rules and for the average ancient wargamer the standard fantasy rules didn't work as well in an ancient setting. Cavalry is to strong and there are not enough troop types. So the rules didn't grab the ancient gamer and make them use their DBX bases for Warmaster. It was clear that if the core rules were to be used in an ancient setting in the ‘mass market' changes had to be made. Rick Priestly went away and has come up with a set of rules which, even taking into account my obvious bias, seem ready to set the ancient gaming world on fire!

Presentation wise they are the normal superb standard Warhammer Historical/GW fare. 144 pages of explanation, rules, army lists, lots of diagrams, full colour and lots of superb 10mm eye candy. This is slightly offset by the graphic they have used on the front cover, which I must admit people tend to love, or think it looks stupid. A kind of ink washed graphic novel type Viking, it appears to be from a series of pictures illustrating a battle and there are other scenes in the book. Personally it doesn't really bother me but quite a few ‘historical gamers' have already commented and used it as a reason to lump the rules immediately in the GW ‘game' not real wargame category – while this is certainly their loss the choice of front cover does leave me a little perplexed.

Firstly what most people who liked Warmaster were mainly concerned with; what do the army lists cover. Well they have split the ‘ancient' period into four main groupings;

Chariot Era – Egyptian, Assyrian & Homeric Greek/Trojan
Ancient Greece and the East – Greek, Achaemenid Persian, Alexandrian Greek, late Achaemenid Persian, The Successors and Indian.
The Rise of Rome – Republican and Imperial Roman, Carthaginian, Gallic, German, Britons, Dacian, Parthian.
The Dark Ages – Sassanid Persian, Late Roman, Early Byzantine, Hun, Anglo-Saxon, Norse, Norman

Each list has the points value, composition restrictions (so my all elephant Carthaginian army is still a boys dream) and special rules to cover ‘national characteristics'. These are what makes each army ‘feel' and play differently. It is a lack of feel and difference in armies which is the major problem I have with a lot of other fast play ancient rules. There is also a list of troops types and how the points are calculated for those people who want to devise other lists that are not present until the ‘official' versions are released. At WJ we are already working on a few to bring to you over the next month or two.

Another query usually at the forefront of gamers thinking about giving new rules is the scale and basing used. The game is geared for 10mm figures based on 40x20mm bases (standard warmaster basing), most things apart from ‘shock' troops (phalanx and cataphracts are an example) are based with a 40mm frontage. Most stands are a 20mm depth. This gives instant access to people who have their 15mm based up on 40mm frontage stands which is popular with the Dbx systems, but this has always been the Warmaster standard as well. There is a section in the rules which gives suggestions for converting to other base sizes, so apart from the trouble when you travel to play you should be able to muddle through with most basing conventions. 28mm figures perhaps give the biggest headache, but at WJ we have always managed, you just need a very big playing area.

So onto the rules themselves. The mechanics are fantastically simple in theory, each unit is made of 3 stands (with artillery being the exception here) and each stand has a ‘stat' line covering, type, attack, range (if applicable), hits and armour. These stats and the quick play sheet are all you need after a couple of intro games, the examples in the rules are then there to help out if the combat gets tricky.

It is a Igo/Ugo system with combat being simultaneous and fought each player turn. This system works well alongside the ‘jewel in the crown' of the Warmaster rules system – the command mechanism. Each leader (you normally have a General and one or more ‘officers') has a command value. To give an order to a group of units (up to 4) the player needs to roll the value or under. Base values are usually 8 or 9 with some 7's and 10's. The base value is modified by various factors. Examples are; each consecutive order, distance from leader, terrain and the proximity and position of enemy units. Thus the first order is often achieved, but it can fail (esp with bad leaders and tricky situations) and then you can risk it and try for another (up to 3 can be given) but it is a risky business. Once failed that leader has to stop issuing orders, failed troops can't be ordered again either, and you move onto the next leader type. If the General fails that is the order phase over. This system has built in ‘fog' and major C&C issues. You can play it safe or risk it all, the choice is yours. There is a kind of excitement or trepidation (depending on what ‘side' you are on) at seeing some cavalry flank around and head for your troops. At other times there is a feel of dread before the roll – will you make it into position or be left high and dry. Sometimes your other troops let you down as they lag behind, other times you can sweep them across the board and onto victory . Differing values give different armies different ‘feels'. It is this system, which to me, makes the rules way ahead of ‘command pips' and the like, the frustrations and emotions of command are all there waiting for you.

In combat or shooting you roll a number of attacks per stand (modified for combat situational factors – e.g. charging, pursuing, flanked, confused etc) and hit on a D6 roll of 4+ (5+ if the enemy is defended, 6+ if fortified) any hits can be saved if the target has a armour roll (usually a 5 or 6 – non armoured types don't get a save). Then a stand is taken off once the ‘hits' value of the stand has been reached (in one shooting or combat ‘phase', note this can be over each players turn), this is normally 3 hits. Combat is simultaneous and the overall result of the combat determines who is pushed back etc. The victorious side can then choose to persue, stand or ‘fall back' (fall back is better thought of as ‘regroup'), if they destroy the enemy in combat they can advance into another combat.

Combat sees the most changes from the fantasy version, some of these were needed to ‘fix' the mechanism, such as the flank charging rules. But some appear to be there to make the historical version more ‘realistic'. Unlike the fantasy version where a unit can keep going in combat Warmaster Ancients sees only two rounds of combat before the combat becomes ‘unresolved'. This means that the phasing player has the chance to feed more troops into the combat to ‘bolster' the threatened breakthrough point or, on the other hand, to reinforce the breakthrough. The second change is that supporting units now count as being in combat and thus can pursue or be pushed back with the combat etc. This means that combat happens differently than in the fantasy version. It is as bloody but not as chaotic and free wheeling with massive breakthroughs and ‘roll-ups' that tend to occur in Warmaster fantasy. This basically means the combat has a more historical feel to it.

The other major departure from the fantasy version lies in the new troop definitions and ‘skills'. Again most of these were to accommodate the ancient ‘feel'. We see a number of new troop types such as ‘shock' troops, which encompasses phalanx troops and cavalry which fought by ‘shock of impact'. Elephants appear as 20mm frontage troops in units and not the WMA equivalent of ‘monsters' which most people expected. In this way they are more akin to knights in Warmaster fantasy, but ones that cause terror. Non shock cavalry are now based on a 40mm frontage which takes away that ‘super cavalry' syndrome that was present in the straight conversion. National characteristics make the armies have more ‘feel'. Even armies which appear on the face of it to have similar troops types can feel very different and have to be played differently to make the most use of the characteristics. An important addition is the fact that skirmish troops can now try and evade from charges and drive backs (from shooting). This and the fact that most skirmish troops do not count towards your break point makes them far more useful in a historical setting. In the fantasy version light ‘weak' troops are a liability as your opponent goes hunting them. Goblins would be far more useful if they had a similar skill – hint hint to Rick P.

The game ends after a set number of turns (weighted random determination before the game starts) or when an army loses 50% of its units or its General. Victory points are then totalled and it is possible to force a draw even if you have in theory just lost.

Extras – as well as the rules, army lists and other standard GW fare such as painting guides etc there is also a good terrain generation system and ideas for campaigns etc.

There is an excellent ‘designers note' section which explain Mr Priestley's design philosophy. These explain the reason behind the small number of rules which have caused debate so far. Take for instance the fact that after you have charged and dispersed some skirmishers you are effectively spent and can't go that wee bit further to contact the enemy behind them. This seemed wrong to a few of our members until the read the notes and thought about it. Then you can see it is actually a very effective way to model the role of a mass of skirmishers on the battlefield.

All in all this set could not have failed to please me … but is it enough to get new people playing and maybe convert people from other rules. Personally I think it is on both counts. If Blitzkrieg Commander (WW2 version of WM) is seen to be the ‘alternative' for Rapid Fire then I don't see how WMA can possibly NOT give Dbx a very big scare and see people coming across in droves. It will get WM players playing ancients, even if at the beginning it is just to see how it differs in play mechanics. It has already made some of our club members start collecting ancient armies and I think this will happen everywhere.

Warmaster Ancients is really an evolved Warmaster and many players are busily formulating ways to ‘retrofit' WM forces to the new rules. This has already been dubbed ‘advanced warmaster' on the WM yahoo group.

If you really didn't like Warmaster then the changes in Warmaster Ancients may not be enough for you. Otherwise I'd suggest you at least try a game if you have at least a passing interest in the Ancient Period. Personally it is going to be hard to drag me away from my rekindled interest.

The rules are extremely easy to pick up. With more experienced players the combined unit combats can get tricky to resolve, but the rules have copious amounts of examples to guide a newbie through these situations, which to be honest happen rarely.

My personal thoughts are–at last there is a decent quick play ancient set which is enjoyable to play and easy to get your ‘head' round. Warmaster Ancients could well be the set of rules that the ancient market place has been waiting for – a fast and furious way of depicting mass ancient battles with a differing feel for the armies involved and which can be easily used in competitive play or for refights. I would say that DBx needs to watch this space with the same trepidation as my light skirmishers who have just seen my elephant in front of them get pushed back and ‘confused' – it may be trampling time!

NikkiB19 Jun 2005 5:36 a.m. PST

WOW!!

Awsome review. Thanks!

fredrik19 Jun 2005 6:24 a.m. PST

Great review–thanks a lot Rich! I have some 6mm Indians and Persians waiting in the painting queue, I think I just might base them for WMA now! :-)

Cheers/Fredrik

Coyoteh19 Jun 2005 7:00 a.m. PST

Catenworld, Homeric hasn't "suddenly" become a historic age.
Do a search for Homeric age or era and see how many results you get.

45,000 for Homeric Era, if someone doesn't want to actually check

CATenWolde19 Jun 2005 9:08 a.m. PST

@Coyoteh,

Err … do a search for "Lord of the Rings" and see how many hits you get. So Google ratings now determine historic validity? ;)

Listen, I'm not harping about whether the "Homeric" age was real or not–I've spent a very large (and ongoing) chunk of my life studying and excavating Bronze Age Greece. I was just amused that "Homeric" is being used as a historcial descriptor when he was, after all, composing fiction for an audience about 500 years after the original would have been conceived, and perhaps 1000 years after the fact (if any) … and the version we have was heavily "edited for politics" by people a couple hundred years after he died!

At any rate, I was just thinking that we could call other armies "Gilgameshian" or some other such thing. Just a musing on literary tags, nothing more intended.

Cheers,

Christopher

Lolbat19 Jun 2005 9:31 a.m. PST

— How do they do "Shock" troops in 15mm?

Shock troops can be based along the 40mm edge and in that case they are given an additional attack dice.

Judas Iscariot19 Jun 2005 5:16 p.m. PST

Cool…

If I didn't have so many new 15mm figures, and the upcoming release of Renegades 28mm Punic Wars minis I would be rushing to OG and Pendraken to buy a load of 10mm figures.

I met a guy in Houston 2 years ago who had done a lot of Historical WM (He even had an article or two published in some Zine) minis. He gave me a quick walk-through of the rules at that point.

I was impressed.

If I could just find minis that inspired me as much as the rules it would be a slam dunk to WMA, but unfortunately I am more driven by the quality of the lead available than the rules.

Now… If the rules DO drive the industry toward a preference for 10mm and WMA, and a resulting large number of figure manufacturers bring out 10mm lines with the look and quality of Xyston, Corvus Belli, Mirliton, Renegade, or Foundry…Then I will be ALL over WMA like white on rice.

mksiebler21 Jun 2005 4:11 a.m. PST

RichJ & PixelGeek,
Thanks for the reviews. They are a great help.

Hey Judas,
Not sure what is stopping you. Pick up the rules and use your 15mm figures!

Have a good day,
Markus

Rassilon21 Jun 2005 11:21 a.m. PST

So, what manufacturers are making decent 10mm armies for these periods right now?

Please e-mail me at: rassilon@qwest.net

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