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"MERCY FOR TANGO- TAKE II" Topic


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3,738 hits since 29 Sep 2017
©1994-2017 Bill Armintrout
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Ottoathome29 Sep 2017 3:35 p.m. PST

Plagarism? Really!? If that's the case then you'd have to dawghouse most of he people on here. If this is plagarism then almost every high school or college student is guilty of it.

This is obviously a personal vendetta against the man.

The courts have already ruled on this, the internet is incapable of copyright and is free- source. I don't want to hear any hackneyed legalese either. This is like ruling that the birds cannot sing in the morning which Morton Grove Illinois once tried.

I will again plead mercy for Armand. Immediate release. There is no offense here.

Personal logo Cacique Caribe Supporting Member of TMP29 Sep 2017 3:47 p.m. PST

So what was his huge crime this time? Because there isn't even a link to this great "plagiarism" infraction. Did he forget to type something with quotation marks?

He didn't even know about the new DH sentence until a few minutes ago when I reached out to him about it. He is just as baffled. And, once again, no one reached out to let him know there was a concern.

This new complaint against him (we don't know, because there's no link back to the crime) might actually shed some light on why he was attacked so fiercely by his longtime haters on the "rape" diorama thread. It was really meant to "make him pay for his past mistakes", as one of our trigger happy guys put it so eloquently back then.

TMP link

Anyway, the topic (aka the evidence) was likely deleted. But Tango01 wasn't even told about it or asked for an explanation. He is reaching out to the Editors right now to see what it is he did that was so evil so as to merit a 5-day DH (and a stealth one at that).

Of course the reason for it doesn't really matter to the handful who led the last lynch mob against he-who-posts-more-than-they'd-like. They are probably throwing a party right now.

So … how would any one of YOU guys here like to be thrown into the DH without any notice whatsoever, or any chance for defense or explanation, with the evidence deleted, and for FIVE DAYS? Seriously, what would YOU learn from such punishment when you don't even know what you did and where?

Dan

robert piepenbrink Supporting Member of TMP29 Sep 2017 4:12 p.m. PST

No stealth DH! No night and fog!

This is an American web site, and no one can be doghoused without knowing what rules he's accused of breaking and specifically how, seeing the evidence against him, and being able to confront his accusers.

If you want to just blip out people, use a Russian server.

Timbo W29 Sep 2017 4:17 p.m. PST

That's rather odd, I posted on that thread, was a fairly standard Tango historical item from somewhere else talking about Soviet plans for invasion of Japan at the end of WW2. Maybe the other site objected?

Personal logo Cacique Caribe Supporting Member of TMP29 Sep 2017 4:31 p.m. PST

Robert

Someone among the Editors seems to really have it in to get him frustrated enough to leave. THAT'S the only logical lesson that can be learned from this "stealth sentencing" habit and to the constant FIVE-DAY DH sentences for anything Tango01 is accused doing.

And if that's the case, that is basically the same thing as any other intentional harassment of a TMP member by another.

Dan
PS. Timbo, "maybe the other site objected?" You really believe that? That would still not explain how Tango01 was judged and sentenced without any notification or chance for explanation, nor does it explain the particularly extreme number of days.

Winston Smith Supporting Member of TMP29 Sep 2017 4:45 p.m. PST

Maybe Dear Editor is getting tired of getting Cease and Desist notices from sites where Tango01 lifts whole pages of text.
And maybe Dear Editor was required to nuke the thread.

5 day sentences are standard for over the weekend penance.

Otto to the contrary, there ARE rules regarding such copying. Too often TMP blatantly ignores them.

The DH is not the Gulag. It is an attention getter and a time out. Period.

jdpintex29 Sep 2017 4:47 p.m. PST

So is he in trouble for using quotation marks or for not providing a link or because someone is just being whiny?

Sheesh!

Personal logo Cacique Caribe Supporting Member of TMP29 Sep 2017 4:49 p.m. PST

So WHAT purpose does the DH serve then, if you don't know what act you are supposed to avoid repeating in the future? Apparently the other people who actually read the thread in question are just as baffled.

Sorry Winston, that dismissive explanation is pretty lame and hollow in my view.

Dan

Winston Smith Supporting Member of TMP29 Sep 2017 5:02 p.m. PST

"No link. No attribution."
That's plagiarism.
"No one but an ass, sir, writes for anything but money."
---Dr Johnson

If Tango01 lifts from a site where the author derives any money from it, it is copyright violation. Providing a link and pretending that makes it ok after lifting whole paragraphs is borderline at best.
Providing no link is pretending the work is your own.

Maybe in the future he will be more careful.

Personal logo Cacique Caribe Supporting Member of TMP29 Sep 2017 5:04 p.m. PST

"No one but an ass, sir, writes for anything but money."

Winston, so you are writing this defense of the "rules", and of the utterly vague evidence, and the underhanded way someone can be DHd, because you are getting paid then? :)

Dan

Personal logo Virtualscratchbuilder Supporting Member of TMP Fezian29 Sep 2017 5:10 p.m. PST

If this is plagarism then almost every high school or college student is guilty of it.

And when we catch them, we fail them. 19 in one semester is the record in one of my classes so far. We even revoke degrees because of it.

The courts have already ruled on this, the internet is incapable of copyright and is free- source.

Why would the courts have to rule on this when every single stitch of information, marked copyrighted or not, has always been in the public domain from day one of the Internet?

princeman Supporting Member of TMP29 Sep 2017 5:12 p.m. PST

Bill – I have been a long time member and this is getting out of hand. I think you need to explain the infraction that causes any DH incident. Tango01 provides a great deal of articles from around the globe that are of interest to many of us on this site.
Greg

Personal logo Cacique Caribe Supporting Member of TMP29 Sep 2017 5:20 p.m. PST

Greg

And the person being accused of something shouldn't be the last one to find out either.

They should be the first one contacted after the offending text or photo is removed, and they should have a chance to reply to the Editor's PM or email before being sent to the DH dungeon.

Dan
PS. I've actually bought many products based on Tango's threads, or they have given me ideas for new scenarios. It's way more than what many of Tango's obsessed and annoyed detractors seem to do around here.

Personal logo sneakgun Supporting Member of TMP29 Sep 2017 5:29 p.m. PST

I had some things smuggled through the laundry, cell phone, cigarettes, and a Travelbattle game. He says a"Mad Priest" has tunneled in to visit.

Leper Messiah29 Sep 2017 5:31 p.m. PST

Personal logo Virtualscratchbuilder Supporting Member of TMP Fezian29 Sep 2017 5:41 p.m. PST

Anybody remember the video from about 10 years ago where a lady was being arrested for reckless driving and endangerment after she plowed through a crowded crosswalk – and resisted arrest, claiming "You cannot arrest me because you have not proved to me that I endangered anyone!" As they were cuffing her she switched to "I have a live cat in the back. You cannot arrest me because I have a live animal in the car."

I would love to find that again.

NWMike29 Sep 2017 5:49 p.m. PST

Part of the goal of DHing should be educational – warning the rest of us where the lines are. "Stealth DHing" doesn't serve that goal. Tango is accused of plagarism, but there is nothing to tell us how TMP defines that term.

Winston Smith Supporting Member of TMP29 Sep 2017 5:52 p.m. PST

Look.
Tmp is a commercial enterprise.
So are the sites where Armand gets his stuff.
If he lifts it with no link or attribution….
Come on. This isn't rocket science. Plagiarism is theft of another person's work.

Otto's "legal" defense seems to be "I can do what I want and you can't stop me!"

I seem to remember Bill putting in the "3 paragraph rule" quite some time ago, in response to this very same issue. So it's not like this should come as any surprise.

I truly believe that Reality has bitten Management on the ass, and that he had no choice. This has been going on for years.

No. This is not a "personal attack" on Armand. I really like him. But these are hard facts, and certainly not a personal vendetta by an editor. Please explain the motives of such a vendetta.

Allen5729 Sep 2017 6:28 p.m. PST

Is Bill making the decisions on this? I was doghoused last month by one of his Phillipino Minions for completely stupid reasons. Not worth fighting but this stuff is getting out of hand.

Charlie 1229 Sep 2017 7:14 p.m. PST

Maybe in the future he will be more careful.

I fear you may be asking too much…

Think before hitting send should be an article of faith. But one more honor in the breach (and, in truth, not just by Tango).

While not a 100% fan of Tango (I do find some of his postings useful and illuminating) I think a little more care in his postings is not too much to ask.

Personal logo Cacique Caribe Supporting Member of TMP29 Sep 2017 7:35 p.m. PST

Maybe in the future we should all be more careful, because what you dismiss today as trivial might not look that way when it's being done to you for no reason and with no warning.

And regarding source links … Seriously, how many times have I have replied to questions from you guys by posting a few pictures on your threads that I thought you might find helpful, and with source links for most of them, but forgot one or two … and one of you guys asked me about one or two links I left out? I provided it and that was it.

That's all that is needed, a little communication.

But if instead the reaction had been to get me DHd for not helping you thoroughly, guess what? I might not feel that helping you is worth any amount of my time or effort.

Dan
PS. Hey Leper, cute meme but guess what? Nothing is more dangerous that the intentional and calculated execution of evil. Mistakes should be treated as mistakes.

TGerritsen Supporting Member of TMP29 Sep 2017 7:56 p.m. PST

So who hit the complaint button? An accused man should have the right to face his accuser.

Personal logo jdginaz Supporting Member of TMP29 Sep 2017 8:00 p.m. PST

"If this is plagarism then almost every high school or college student is guilty of it."

The reason so many students are guilty of this is because too many adults have the same ambivalent attitude about plagiarizing.

Tango know the plagiarizing rules. I seem to recall that he was DH'd for this same thing sometime ago.

Winston Smith Supporting Member of TMP29 Sep 2017 8:04 p.m. PST

TMP is not a high school class where the teacher may or may not give a hoot about plagiarism.
It's a commercial enterprise, and the Editor cannot be seen to tolerate or profit from another's work without attribution.
Why is this so complicated for some to grasp?

Whether or not Tango01 was given a heads up about this particular incident is irrelevant. I'm not the only one to have a long memory here, about this very same issue. It's been an issue for years.
"But he's a jolly good fellow!" is not an adequate defense.

Personal logo Cacique Caribe Supporting Member of TMP29 Sep 2017 8:08 p.m. PST

Winston

Why is it so complicated for you to grasp is not the rules that most of us are upset about, but the stealthy sucker-punch way that it was enforced and the erasure of evidence?

But I think the problem is actually worse. You do grasp what it is we are objecting to, but you simply don't think it's a big deal.

If it's not a big deal to you (this time), good for you. You made your point and we heard you. But it still doesn't change the fact that is continues to be a big deal for the one who started this thread and for many of us here.

Dan

Winston Smith Supporting Member of TMP29 Sep 2017 8:21 p.m. PST

Because the damned evidence itself is the fruits of plagiarism!
Bill CANNOT keep it up for any and all to view, because it itself is plagiarism.
Bill CANNOT keep it up.
Who do you think you are, anyway? The Washington Post, with a Freedom of Information Act motion?

Can you guess how much it pisses me off to defend Dear Editor, considering how he treated me back in 2011? No. I haven't forgotten nor forgiven.
I'm just sick of yours and Otto's knee jerk defense of a serial offender who has never thought he had any need to follow The Rules.
Otto obviously misses the boobies and Bleeped texts links that Tango01 finds. grin
Yours is a bit more high minded, but come on.

Just accept that "justice" on TMP is capricious and arbitrary.
And accept that Tango01 can't post until Tuesday or Wednesday. It's no hardship. Believe me. I've been in the can enough times to know.

Winston Smith Supporting Member of TMP29 Sep 2017 8:23 p.m. PST

File a writ of mandamus or something for tortious interference.

Winston Smith Supporting Member of TMP29 Sep 2017 8:25 p.m. PST

IT HAS BEEN GOING ON FOR YEARS!!!!

Personal logo Cacique Caribe Supporting Member of TMP29 Sep 2017 8:32 p.m. PST

So I take it Bill isn't going to say a thing about this to the group, and that you speak for him.

Dan

Mitochondria29 Sep 2017 8:46 p.m. PST

Plagarism is when you claim credit for work that is not yours.

Tango has not claimed to have authored Bleeped text

Winston, I think you are being a raging Bleeped texter on this issue.

Ottoathome29 Sep 2017 8:47 p.m. PST

Dear Winston

I love it when you drivel on about something you know nothing about. I don't spend thousands with my copyright lawyers to protect my stuff for nothing. Their words were simple. The court makes a show of protecting intellectual property on the net, but they told me it's hopeless. It's an unenforceable law. Look at this very forum. Once you put out a pdf, or an e copy of the rules, or on a site it's public. Everyone offers it to everyone. The lawyers tell me that that trying to prevent unauthorized copy and distribution is impossible. It may be illegal as all get out but it's impossible to prosecute it.

Deleted by Moderator

McWong7329 Sep 2017 9:15 p.m. PST

He doesn't produce the content.

Winston Smith Supporting Member of TMP29 Sep 2017 9:19 p.m. PST

The lawyers tell me that that trying to prevent unauthorized copy and distribution is impossible. It may be illegal as all get out but it's impossible to prosecute it.

So you admit it's illegal. I have nothing more to say.
Prosecution depends entirely on who has deeper pockets. I don't think Bill's are all that deep. He can be tied up for years, spending a fortune on lawyers, ultimately to win. It's cheaper to DH Armand over the weekend.
If your lawyers told you it was impossible to protect, why did you spend all that money?

I'm the Cool Table? Someone should have told me back in the day. I would have scored more Chicks.

Winston Smith Supporting Member of TMP29 Sep 2017 9:23 p.m. PST

So I take it Bill isn't going to say a thing about this to the group, and that you speak for him.

Dan


No, I don't. And I wouldn't.
I'm speculating.

Winston Smith Supporting Member of TMP29 Sep 2017 9:28 p.m. PST

Plagarism is when you claim credit for work that is not yours.

Tango has not claimed to have authored Bleeped text

Winston, I think you are being a raging Bleeped texter on this issue.


It appears on Bill's site, with no link and no attribution. What would a neutral observer think?

Get over it y'all. He'll be out and posting by Wednesday. Maybe he'll be more careful.

Winston Smith Supporting Member of TMP29 Sep 2017 9:41 p.m. PST

Otto, you must not frequent the AWI or TSATF boards. I may not be an expert, but I pretend to know what I'm talking about. I never see you there.

I usually don't frequent the Boobies Board, where you hold court as an expert.

I guess we move in different circles.

Personal logo Parzival Supporting Member of TMP29 Sep 2017 9:48 p.m. PST

I don't have any comment on Tango1's situation, but the ignorance about copyright here is appalling.

ANYTHING artistic work written (or drawn or performed or sung) by ANYONE is AUTOMATICALLY under copyright when it is created. The government has to do ABSOLUTELY NOTHING for this to be the case, nor does the creator of the work. You write it, it belongs to you, and no one can use it without your permission. PERIOD.

"Fair Use" is a legal term that applies to a minimal portion of a work used under very specific conditions: for explicit educational purposes, or as part of a review or summary, and attribution is expected and required. It doesn't mean that you can use a large chunk of anything anyway you want. The exception is parody.

The simple fact that something is on the Internet does NOT make it "public domain." If that were the case, then any movie (or book or song or whatever) stolen and made available on the Internet would be "public domain," which is clearly a bogus argument. "Public domain" is a legal term that means anyone in the public has the right to reproduce a work or create derivative works based upon it, without paying anyone, as no one holds the rights. Nothing about the Internet makes anything "public domain" simply because it is on the Internet. That would be like saying that because a newspaper has multiple copies, or is available in a library, its contents are "public domain." What nonsense!

Y'all have a lot to learn about copyright… *sigh*.

Personal logo Cacique Caribe Supporting Member of TMP29 Sep 2017 10:22 p.m. PST

And that, my friends, is how word of mouth advertising, the most effective form of advertising in the history of mankind, dies … at the hands of paranoid people who would rather turn on fellow members than risk offending or confusing some "neutral observer" outsider who has no clue what this hobby is about and how dependent it has always been on word of mouth and referrals, or has any real interest in the continuation of the community. Yes I'm joking. Word of mouth will survive this.

John, i appreciate that you admit that all this about what Tango may or may not have done is all nothing speculation on your part, because you have no evidence whatsoever (because no one has been given any) and yet with all the rambling you have succeeded in making everyone think that this about copyright, source links, lawsuits … talk about a wild goose chase!

The point is that the only facts we really know here is that Tango was DHd, that he had no clue it had happened or what the reason could have possibly been, and neither do any of the other people here who actually saw or participated in the thread that misteriosly disappeared. That, together with an unsupported blanket label of "Plagiarism" slapped on to Tango's profile page*, and Bill's conspicuous absence in all of this and your prominent presence in all of it, is just about everything we really know.

Did I miss any other actual facts in this recap?

Anyway, I'm getting a big headache. Nite nite.

Dan
* Think of it as if someone was telling you that you lied or did something they secretly disapproved of a couple of days ago. But you have no idea what that could have possibly been. And then you are told to think about it while you hang nailed to the tree of woe. Yeah, silly way to prevent repeat offenses. Almost as silly as Karma punishing you for something you don't remember doing in a past life but that you must somehow learn from. Ohm …. :)

Winston Smith Supporting Member of TMP29 Sep 2017 11:55 p.m. PST

Oh, for pity's sake, Dan.
Stop acting like the Town Elders, before whom proof must be presented before a sentence can be passed.
IF HE DID "plagiarize", how can it be proven to your self entitled satisfaction? If it IS plagiarism, Bill cannot keep it on his site. He has to take it down. So he did.

All I will say is that it cannot have come as a shock. "But he's been getting away with it for years!" is yet another invalid defense.
This came to a head years ago, and has simmered quietly since then.
My GUESS is that the "offended party" sent a strong message about his research, in his exact words, had been taken and published without attribution or a link, or permission. You can't do those things freely on a whim, as a certain legal expert seems to think. Particularly on a commercial site. Oh? It's not a commercial site? Bill doesn't collect Supporting Memberships? He doesn't collect from advertisers?
Bill was forced to act as he did. Said offended party probably demanded proof it wouldn't happen again. 5 days is peanuts. It could have been far worse.

And maybe I'm wrong. But why would Bill DH his largest contributor solely on a whim? That makes no sense.

If you think Bill acted without etiquette or manners, well, that's not for me to answer for it.

Personal logo Cacique Caribe Supporting Member of TMP30 Sep 2017 12:01 a.m. PST

Ha! Still building castles in speculation? Maybe this, perhaps that but, I dunno, I can't speak for Bill and yet I can't stop myself. Priceless.

Dan

nevinsrip Sponsoring Member of TMP30 Sep 2017 1:57 a.m. PST

Good. Five days relief from………the blizzard of crap!

And dude, you need to get out more if you're that upset about someone not being allowed to post on a toy soldier forum for a couple of days.

You know who you are.

basileus6630 Sep 2017 4:12 a.m. PST

Most probable scenario: Raśl copy-pasted a couple of paragraphs, then posted it before realizing he hadn't copy-pasted the link too, and moved on to open another thread.

Someone in the overzelous crowd, with anal-retention issues, made a complaint and the editors, full of righteous zeal, sent Raśl to the DH. No explanation beyond a cryptic reference to "plagianarism" that doesn't hold any water.

Yep, sounds about right.

It is becoming tiresome… the only reason I continue visiting TMP is because I am a creature of habits. Otherwise I would be planning my Great Diva Exit (Tm) right now.

Personal logo Tacitus Supporting Member of TMP30 Sep 2017 4:33 a.m. PST

I am the Freedom of Information Act and the Washington Post!

Personal logo Cacique Caribe Supporting Member of TMP30 Sep 2017 5:27 a.m. PST

Nevinsdrip: "Good. Five days relief from………the blizzard of crap!"

Yes. Please DO continue to confirm for us all that the DH had little to nothing to do with the alleged infraction.

By the way, will you be needing a torch or a pitchfork at the next event?

Dan
PS. Hmm, and I guess some special people these days are allowed to get away with calling a fellow member "the blizzard of crap"?

picture

princeman Supporting Member of TMP30 Sep 2017 5:59 a.m. PST

Bill – where is your reply to this? IF Tango01 did plagiarize something then let it be known to all. But please clear up one thing for me – I was under the impression that to commit plagiarism there needed to be some personal gain and or claim it to be yours.
Greg

Legion 430 Sep 2017 6:00 a.m. PST

FREE TANGO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Earl of the North30 Sep 2017 6:03 a.m. PST

I didn't realise there was a second thread, so I'll just repost this……

I believe it was a failure to remember to post a link to what he was quoting that is the problem this time.

So as I said in the other topic, I will support a call for amnesty, because this seems like something that could have been handled very easily without a DH and really the first reply (if there was one) to the topic probably asked for a link.

Really though, should this have been a DH offence, failing to post a link or attributions when quoting somebody?

Oh and I'm quoting myself, just to avoid the DH. wink

Personal logo Cacique Caribe Supporting Member of TMP30 Sep 2017 6:23 a.m. PST

Earl: "Oh and I'm quoting myself, just to avoid the DH."

I love it!

Hmm. Does this mean that TMP's "temporary personality transfer bug" (the old bug that, when you post a comment, mysteriously plugs in someone else's text in its place) is some sort of "plagiarism" bug?

If so, that could have some very serious implications! :)

Dan
PS. By the way, it was during the peak period of that bug infestation that I started "signing" my posts. I got tired of being asked if I had really posted stuff that had been plugged in from some other distant simultaneous thread.

Dynaman878930 Sep 2017 6:35 a.m. PST

> Plagarism is when you claim credit for work that is not yours.

No, you just need to republish it without permission.

> I was under the impression that to commit plagiarism there needed to be some personal gain and or claim it to be yours

Why do people keep thinking these things? Neither is true.

Personal logo Cacique Caribe Supporting Member of TMP30 Sep 2017 6:42 a.m. PST

Dynaman8789: "Why do people keep thinking these things?"

You seriously don't know why?

A) Because, there are just as many answers to these questions as there are attorneys, and;
B) Because when you ask an actual attorney on the subject, their answer will depend more on whether it will produce more $ for themselves, or more work than it's really worth their while.

Don't believe me? Call a couple of offices, sit down with an attorney in each, and see if that doesn't happen to you too.

Dan

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