Help support TMP


"Infantry of the United Provinces army of the Netherlands ..." Topic


21 Posts

All members in good standing are free to post here. Opinions expressed here are solely those of the posters, and have not been cleared with nor are they endorsed by The Miniatures Page.

For more information, see the TMP FAQ.


Back to the 18th Century Discussion Message Board



727 hits since 27 Sep 2017
©1994-2017 Bill Armintrout
Comments or corrections?

Paskal Supporting Member of TMP28 Sep 2017 1:20 a.m. PST

Infantry of the United Provinces army of the Netherlands at the battle of Fontenoy.

The Dutch Line and guard battalions did not incorporate their companies of grenadiers ?

Because we find in the order of battle of the Pragmatic Sanction army four Dutch battalions named "Unnamed Grenadier Units", the Combined Grenadier Battalion Van Dorth and the Combined Grenadier Battalion Van Rijssel which would make so that 60 companies of grenadiers coming from 60 battalions!?

If I understand correctly, these sixty companies would come, among others, from the Dutch national battalions (including those of the Guard ?) of the German and Walloon battalions present at Fontenoy? (no Scottish battalions in the Army of the Dutch Army in Fontenoy)

But there were only 21 or 26 Dutch battalions present …

In conclusion, there are 10 different uniforms per battalions of Grenadiers in the Army of the Dutch Army of the Netherlands?

Do you know what regiments came from the companies that formed the Van Dorth Combined Grenadier Battalion and the Van Rijssel Combined Grenadier Battalion?

seneffe28 Sep 2017 8:24 a.m. PST

Van Rijssel and van Dorth are often but mistakenly called combined Grenadier Battalions. They weren't. Actually before the involvement of the Dutch in the French Revolutionary War- I'm not aware of them ever forming combined Grenadier units. The mysterious and un-named '4 combined Grenadier battalions' who also appear in many OOBs is in my view a many times repeated error stemming from an excellent 1980s article in the US Courier magazine on Fontenoy. The author had difficulty making the numbers of battalions tally and suggested that they might be combined Grenadier units. But in fairness he did nothing more than suggest it as a possibility. Since then these Grenadier units have re-appeared in various Fontenoy OOBs with greater positivity and firmness every time, but I don't think they are real. That still leaves us with the mystery of the numbers of battalions. I have some thoughts on that but probably need longer than I now have to describe them.

But to the units you mention- Van Dorth and Van Rijssel- which definitely did exist-

Van Dorth was an established regular infantry regiment raised in 1665. At some point in its earlier history it had been given an honorific Grenadier title, and I think wore Grenadier caps in the WAS. Don't know the pattern of these.

Van Rijssel was a established Marine infantry regiment raised in 1666, but serving at this time as part of the Dutch field army. Like British Marines of the WAS period, Rijssel wore Grenadier style caps at least for all enlisted men. I think (lwu) that the pattern was a cloth fronted low mitre cap with a hanging bag at the back. In overall style a little bit bit like the Grenadier caps worn by the 2nd Dragoons (Scots Greys) in the British Army in this period. Somewhere or other I have an illustration but can't track it now.

Personal logo Der Alte Fritz Sponsoring Member of TMP28 Sep 2017 9:36 p.m. PST

Seneffe: that is an excellent response, especially the part about repeating the same error in the OOB over and over until it is accepted as the truth.

Fritz

Paskal Supporting Member of TMP29 Sep 2017 1:16 a.m. PST

Ok Seneffe, so according to you there would be only two battalions of Dutch grenadiers in Fontenoy:

-The Van Rijssel and van Dorth Grenadier Battalions-

But then at Fontenoy, the Dutch national battalions would keep their grenadier companies or they would constitute The Van Rijssel and Combined van Dorth Grenadier Battalions?

So without the 4 Unnamed (and combined)Grenadier units, the Dutch have 22 battalions at Fontenoy ..?

seneffe29 Sep 2017 2:49 a.m. PST

Hi Paskal,

Just to be clear- Van Dorth and van Rijssel were NOT combined Grenadier battalions, they were regular regiments with their own permanent manpower who just happened, for the reasons I mentioned above, to be uniformed as Grenadiers. They did not take Grenadier companies from any other units.

There was actually also a third Dutch infantry unit at Fontenoy dressed as Grenadiers. This was the 2nd Battalion of the Oranje-Friesland infantry, and again I think this was some mark of historic distinction. Like the Oranje-Friesland cavalry I mentioned in the cavalry thread, this unit had a semi-guard status and apart from the Gardes te Voet- it was the only Dutch national regiment to possess two battalions. Both battalions were present at Fontenoy, although some OOBs don't take this into account. It seems to have been a pretty hard fighting unit and I think took the heaviest losses of any Dutch regiment at Fontenoy.

So to re-cap, there were three Dutch battalions at Fontenoy who were dressed as Grenadiers- Van Dorth, Van Rijssel Mariniers, and 2nd Bn Oranje-Friesland. None of these units took any troops from other regiments.

Re the total numbers of Dutch infantry- 27 battalions is the number I have from a variety of 20th century and contemporary sources (I spent a lot of time in the Dutch army museum library at Delft in the late 1980s- my version of a mis-spent youth…).

As I mentioned yesterday, when I get the chance I will give my complete understanding of the Dutch OOB- which regiments were present, in what strength, based on my research.

Hopr that helps.

Paskal Supporting Member of TMP29 Sep 2017 2:49 a.m. PST

But in the book of Charles S.Grant – Wargaming in History – Volume 2 – they have:

- 17550 infantrymen in 27 battalions
– 6000 cavalry in 40 squadrons
– 26 cannons and 6 howitzers

And the van Dorth Grenadier Battalion is the Marinier van Dorth Battalion???

seneffe29 Sep 2017 3:01 a.m. PST

Re van Dorth- I did wonder if they were a marine regiment too but it seems not. 'De Nederlandse Infanterie' (H Ringoir 1967) gives its regimental tradition- it was raised as a regular army infantry regiment and remained so throughout its life.
The same source shows Van Rijssel as being formed as regular infantry but converted to Mariniers in 1698 as the Mariniers Swansbel. The regiment carried the 'Mariniers' designation from then on until it was finally amalgamated into another regiment in 1748.

Paskal Supporting Member of TMP29 Sep 2017 4:34 a.m. PST

Bravo!

18CTEXAN29 Sep 2017 4:44 a.m. PST

Great work Seneffe!

Paskal Supporting Member of TMP11 Oct 2017 8:24 a.m. PST

Van Dorth and van Rijssel not take Grenadier companies from any other units…

Ok but other units have kept their Grenadier companies?

9th Maine Inactive Member12 Oct 2017 4:41 a.m. PST

Based on the two sources I have, the Dutch Army at Fontenoy consisted of 21 battalions and 40 squadrons deployed as follows:

First Line (right to left)

Infantry

Conström (1)
Bentinck (1)
Salis (Grisons) (2)
Van Rijssel (1)
Oranje-Stad en Lande (1)
Oranje-Friesland (1)
Buddenbrock (1)
Schaumburg-Lippe (1)
Aylva (1)
Garde te voet (1)

Cavalry

Rechteren (3)
Buys (1)
Sandouville (3)
Hop (3)
Nassau-Ouwerkerk (1)
Hoeuff van Oyen (karabiniers) (2)
Garde Dragonders (5)


Second Line (right to left)

Infantry

Van Dorth (1)
De Constant Rebecque (3)
Sturler (2)
Brockhuisen (1)
Bronckhorst (1)
Smissaert (1)

Cavalry

Van Lijnden (3)
Schack (3)
Reede van Ginkel (3)
Hessen-Homburg (3)
Massou (dragonders) (5)
Schlippenbach (dragonders) (2)

Reservekorps

Waldeck (infanterie) (1)
Schlippenbach (dragonders) (3)


Total:
21 battalions
40 squadrons

Sources:
- Het Staatse Leger, Deel IX, De Achttiende Eeuw 1713-1795. Amsterdam 2012
- Österreichischer Erbfolge-Krieg 1740-1748. Vol. IX. Wien 1914

Paskal Supporting Member of TMP12 Oct 2017 10:16 p.m. PST

This changes everything, with what has been said before, but it has a version by author?

Tricorne197113 Oct 2017 10:25 a.m. PST

We will be refighting a portion of Fontenoy with accurately painted 28mm figures at the Seven Years War Convention, April 5-7, 2018 in South Bend at the Waterford Estates.

Paskal Supporting Member of TMP13 Oct 2017 10:02 p.m. PST

What are your orders of battles?

seneffe15 Oct 2017 7:47 a.m. PST

Hi Paskal,

I said that I would get back to you when I had more time to look at my 1980s research into the Fontenoy OoB.

Most of the the following is from sitting down in Library of the Army Museum at Delft looking at muster lists etc. I also used Het Staats Leger- but the original 1950s version. Finally I got a lot of help from a gentleman called Alan Sapherson. He was very well known in the 1980s and 90s for publishing some of the first detailed OoBs and uniform details for the War of the Grand Alliance- but he also did lots of work on the WAS.

The units mentioned by 9th Maine mostly accord with my own research. Where they most differ is the number of battalions and squadrons present with each regiment at Fontenoy.

The unit name spellings are taken from the original documents cross checked with De Nederlandse Infanterie (H Ringoir), and De Nederlandse cavalerie (P Forbes-Wels), so they should be very close to what the regiments actually called themselves on the day!

Infantry (1 Bn per Regiment unless stated)

Brockhuysen
Gardes te Voet (2 Bns)
Mariniers van Rijssel (Marines wearing grenadier caps)
Buddenbrock
Cronstrom
Van Dorth (wore grenadier caps)
Bronkhorst
Oranje-Friesland (2 Bns) 2nd Bn all wore grenadier caps
Aylva
Lippe-Buckeburg
Bentinck
Smissaert (a Walloon Regiment)
Oranje-Stad en Land (aka Oranje-Groningen in some docs)
Waldeck (3 Bns) a German Regiment
Constant (3 Bns) a Swiss Regiment
Salisch (3 Bns) Ditto
Sturler (3 Bns) Ditto

Cavalry

Hessen-Homburg (3 Sqns)
Friederich Rechteren 2 Sqns) Aka Haersolte in some docs.
Oranje-Nassau (3 Sqns)
Ginkel (3 Sqns)
Karabiniers (2 Sqns) Aka Hoefft van Oyen in some docs.
Sandouville (3 Sqns)
Schack (3 Sqns)
Hop (3 Sqns) Aka Hoop in some docs.
Lynden (3 Sqns) Aka Linden Van Blitterswijk in some docs.
Garde Dragonders (5 Sqns)
Schlippenbach Dragonders (5 Sqns)
Massou Dragonders (5 Sqns)

This accords with the traditionally given total of 27
battalions and 40 Squadrons.

Hope that helps. Good gaming.

Paskal Supporting Member of TMP16 Oct 2017 8:41 a.m. PST

Good evening and thank you seneffe

seneffe I think that for the Dutch you are the best, despite all the versions…

Now I have to know if the Dutch national regiments had kept their companies of grenadiers …

Otherwise for the numbers of infantrymen, cavalrymen, artillerymen and guns?

I suppose there is also one version per author.


in the book of Charles S.Grant – Wargaming in History – Volume 2 – they have:

- 17550 infantrymen in 27 battalions
– 6000 cavalry in 40 squadrons
– 26 cannons and 6 howitzers


And for the figurines, is there only Eureka?

dbf167616 Oct 2017 11:14 a.m. PST

Eureka are the only nay ones specifically for the Dutch, although Crann Tars makes a "generic" musketeer thst will work for some regiments.

9th Maine Inactive Member16 Oct 2017 2:19 p.m. PST

Some comments of Seneffe's OOB. Based on Het Staatse Leger, Deel IX, at least 4 battalions in his OOB were not present at Fontenoy:


Waldeck, 2nd Reg – in garrison of Venlo joined Field Army 20 May
Oranje-Friesland, 2nd Bn – in garrison of Nijmegen joined Field Army 7 June
Sturler, 3rd Bn - in garrison of Bergen(Henegouwen) joined Field Army 23 May
Salis, 3rd Bn – in garrison Bergen (Henegouwen) joined Field Army 25 May

Source: – Het Staatse Leger, Deel IX, De Achttiende Eeuw 1713-1795. Amsterdam 2012, Bijlage 18, page 686. Taken from Waldeck's Journal 1745.

Still working on 3rd Regt Waldeck and 2nd Bn Garde te voet, but I doubt either was present at Fontenoy. Although the Garde te voet was a two battalion regiment, only one battalion of the regiment ever appears on any of the OOBs for the war. I suspect the second battalion remained at home in The Netherlands.

Reference the "original" Het staatse Leger from the 1950s. The series ended with Deel VIII which covered the period 1702-1715, and contains nothing on Fontenoy or the WAS. It wasn't unit Deel IX was published in 2012 that the period 1713-1795 was covered. Also Ringoir is great for unit lineages and the "correct spelling" of unit names, but contains nothing on Fontenoy. It would be nice to have the surce for Seneffe's OOB.

Paskal Supporting Member of TMP17 Oct 2017 11:19 a.m. PST

LOL, so I was right, you are already in disagreement and you are only two …

Which of the two is right?

I do not understand 'It was not unit Deel IX was published in 2012 that the period 1713-1795 was covered.'

seneffe17 Oct 2017 11:51 a.m. PST

I'll go over all of the notes from the museum which was my main source. I did them 35 years ago so I'll need a bit of time to get back to you. The numbers of 27 Bns and 40 sqns were pretty clear from the documents I saw though.

I actually think the numbers can be reconciled reasonably well without anyone being proved wrong.

Paskal Supporting Member of TMP22 Oct 2017 10:36 a.m. PST

But, I trust you and thank you Seneffe and I am based on what you say, but there are some who do not seem in agreement with you, you have to convince them because I am unable to separate you.

Sorry - only verified members can post on the forums.