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"Which date do you prefer for the fall of Troy?" Topic

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Paskal Supporting Member of TMP20 Sep 2017 9:30 a.m. PST

As this war was considered among the ancient Greeks as the last event of the mythical age or the first event of the historical epoch, several dates are given for the fall of Troy.

They usually come from the genealogies of the kings:

Douris of Samos and Timaeus of Tauroménion gives 1344 BC, (1344 to 1334 BC, for Douris of Samos?).

And from 1202 to 1192 BC. J.-C. for the Timaeus of Tauromenion.

Eretes gives from 1300 to 1290 BC,(or 1301 to 1291 BC).

Herodotus gives from 1280 to 1270 BC, (or around 1250 BC).

Dicarque gives from 1222 to 1212 BC.

Hellanicos, Ephorus of Cumae and Chronicle of Paros give from 1218 to 1208 BC.

Dicaearchus gives 1212 BC.

Hecataeus and Thucydides give from 1210 to 1200 BC.

The marble parien gives 1209 av. J.-C. / 1208 BC.

Maneton and Julian the African give from 1208 to 1198.

Timaeus of Tauroménion gives from 1202 to 1192.

Velleius Paterculus gives from 1200 to 1190.

Eratosthenes, Apollodorus of Athens, Diodorus of Sicily, Castor of Rhodes, Dionysius of Halicarnassus, Eusebius of Caesarea and Orosus, from 1194 to 1184 BC,(but also 1184/1183 BC for Eratosthenes and 1193 BC for Denys of Halicarnassus).

Timaeus gives 1193 BC.

Girolamos gives from 1192 to 1182 BC.

Sosibios of Laconia and Eratosthenes give 1183 BC/ 1184 BC.

But also from 1182 to 1172 BC for Sosibios and from 1194 to 1184 BC for Eratosthenes…

Sosibius (Sosibios of Laconia) gives from 1182 to 1172 BC.

Artemon of Clazomenes and Democritus give from 1160 to 1150 BC.

Ephorus gives 1135 BC.

As for the exact day, (from the fall of Troy I suppose?) Ephore gives 23/24 Thargelion (6 or 7 May), Hellanicus 12 Thargelion (26 May) while others give the 23rd of Sciroforion (7 July) or the 23rd of Ponamos (October 7th).

The glorious and rich city that Homer describes was considered as Trojan VI by many authors of the twentieth century, destroyed in 1275 BC, probably by an earthquake.

His disciple Troy VIIa, destroyed by fire at some point during the years 1180 BC, has long been considered a poorer city, but since the 1988 excavation campaign, it has become the most likely candidate.

All this is interesting to know what types of armor, shields and weapons must carry our figures and also what types of chariots, not to mention the tactics used?


Personal logo miniMo Supporting Member of TMP20 Sep 2017 10:16 a.m. PST

Also external Hittite references:

Alaksandu, ruler of Wilusa (Ilios), had a treaty with the Hittite king Mutawalli II (ruled c.1295-1272 BCE).

A later letter from Hattusili III (ruled c.1267-1237 BCE), to the king of the Ahhiyawa (Achaeans) mentions that the two had a former struggle for Wilusa .

So that puts the war comfortably into the 1280–1250 range.

Winston Smith Supporting Member of TMP20 Sep 2017 10:16 a.m. PST

You can get as good a number as any by taking an average of all those dates. grin

As for the weaponry used in our games, I can name at least 3 very good 28mm manufacturers who based their lines on Peter Connolly 's excellent illustrated book that mainly used Mycenaean art.

The controversy is that the combat described in the Iliad does not match our models, particularly the charging "Knights" in Dendra armor.
Then consider Quintus of Smyrna. He's the source for the Trojan Horse, Penthiselia of the Amazons, Memnon, etc. And not a chariot mentioned!

Considering that Homer lived around 800BC (ok, controversial, lol) and Quintus was probably Late Roman, you can use just about anything.

Consider also Renaissance tapestries with Scenes from the Trojan War. You may as well show Hector as a Gendarme cavalry and Achilles as Landsknecht.

Hafen von Schlockenberg Inactive Member20 Sep 2017 10:32 a.m. PST

Are you assuming high,middle,or low chronology?

Winston Smith Supporting Member of TMP20 Sep 2017 10:41 a.m. PST

Does it really matter for gaming purposes?

robert piepenbrink Supporting Member of TMP20 Sep 2017 11:09 a.m. PST

I think the argument for VIIa is reasonable, based on current knowledge. I haven't done Troy for a bit. A few points:
--As I recall, the classical Greeks tended to allow a little more time for a "rule of thumb" generation than historical records seem to support, which is why many of them have an earlier date.
--I'd grant a final composition date for Homer of 800 BC or so, but the people who actually read classical and pre-classical Greek assure me that some passages are much older than that--some, in fact, arguably older than our estimated dates for the fall of Troy.
--Worth noting in relation to Troy VI as "Homer's Troy" to the exclusion of VIIa that VIIa is within those same sloped walls and has massive cultural continuity, that Troy VI evidently was burnt, earthquake or no--and that this corresponds very well with the classical Greek claim that the Argonauts had sacked Troy, killing all the royal family except for the infant Priam a long generation before the sack of Troy at the end of the Trojan War--Troy VI burnt following earthquake c. 1250 and Troy VIIa sacked and burnt c. 1180.

And you know, if I'd skipped fifty years or scholarship and come straight here from reading Richard Powell's Whom the Gods Would Destroy I'd be at the same point. He even mentions the then-undiscovered lower town.

Hafen von Schlockenberg Inactive Member20 Sep 2017 11:36 a.m. PST

Homer,or at least his characters,seem to be aware that the ancestors used chariots in a different way from the "current" (however you want to take that) usage,but they didn't know what it was.

I suppose it might matter,if you want to game Troy as a victim of Mycenaeans,or "Sea Peoples". Otherwise, what Winston said.

"Argonauts against Troy"--now there's a game idea.

Winston Smith Supporting Member of TMP20 Sep 2017 12:00 p.m. PST

Just the thought of "knights" in Dendra armor jousting gives me the tingles. Unfortunately, the Iliad features battle taxis.
Then again, the idea of Athene for your driver is pretty tingly too. I think that Diomedes' Dad Tydeus, and Athene were a pretty hot item, back in the day.

Hafen von Schlockenberg Inactive Member20 Sep 2017 12:34 p.m. PST

Well,the Linear B Tablets list a pretty hefty inventory of chariots,so you have that to build on.

I think putting the moves on Athene would probably be as bad an idea as trying something with Artemis--you might get turned into something you won't enjoy.

Winston Smith Supporting Member of TMP20 Sep 2017 12:45 p.m. PST

Well, Diomedes had a VERY good patroness in Athene, with her driving his chariot.
Maybe she's the one who put the moves on Tydeus.
Game of Thrones was not planted on barren grounds.

Legbiter20 Sep 2017 2:41 p.m. PST

c1400 BC. It's plainly an account of an aspect of the Bronze Age catastrophe, IMO.

Hafen von Schlockenberg Inactive Member20 Sep 2017 2:45 p.m. PST

That would be a little early, I think.

TKindred Supporting Member of TMP20 Sep 2017 10:29 p.m. PST

I still go with a 9th to 8th century BC dating for the event(s). There's a good reason why Homer could so accurately describe what went on, down to armour, weapons, names, etc.

Homer lived within a generation or two of the campaign. He saw what he describes.

LORDGHEE20 Sep 2017 10:35 p.m. PST

what a great game
Argonauts vs troy.

1190 April 14, 4:14 am

advocate Supporting Member of TMP20 Sep 2017 11:16 p.m. PST

TKindred, consider what Winston said about the Renaissance Achilles as landsknecht. Because Homer has some details of what might have been current (or only old-fashioned) in 800 BC doesn't mean that the historical events portrayed in the poem happened around then.

advocate Supporting Member of TMP20 Sep 2017 11:19 p.m. PST

Winston, you seem to say it doesn't matter, but you work hard to get the right figures for your ragged AR militia :)
Trying to be more accurate – whether to the history or the literature – is what we do.

Dexter Ward21 Sep 2017 2:39 a.m. PST

Troy never fell – it's fake news. :-)

Winston Smith Supporting Member of TMP21 Sep 2017 4:07 a.m. PST

My remark about the "right figures" has to do with the fact that accepted date is ~1180 +/- 100 years. You will see little variation in available figures.

When I had a Trojan War project going, I used mainly Redoubt and Foundry, both fantastic ranges.
Just for variety I used Foundry Bronze Age European figures for Myrmidons, just because I considered them hillbillies.
I was able to buy large numbers of Foundry Sea Peoples and other Biblical ranges.
I kept with more standard Mycenaean figufor the Achaeans and the wider variety for Trojans. The Named Heros from Redoubt helped, with Lukka and Sarpedon wearing Peleset headgear.
I wish I didn't have to sell them off, since I was in the process of assembling Amazon figures for Penthiselia and Nubians for Memnon. The Amazons would have been mostly peltasts and cavalry, since Quintus mentions no chariots.

So, I wouldn't really do Troy with Landsknechts, or Byzantines for that matter, but would jump at a game doing that at a convention.

Hafen von Schlockenberg Inactive Member21 Sep 2017 6:40 a.m. PST

Technical question,Winston: the Redooubt Trojan War figures I saw years ago seemed gigantic,compared to other makers. How did the Foundry match against them?

Winston Smith Supporting Member of TMP21 Sep 2017 7:32 a.m. PST

I used Foundry "officers" with Redoubt pikemen.
Foundry are slightly shorter, but noticeably slimmer.
Things like that don't bother me. If they bother you, caveat emptor.

I got a great deal on the Redoubt figures. They are beautiful and the range is as close to complete as can be.
I've seen no better chariots for any army anywhere, and every hero has his own.
They simply did not fit on WRG or DBM based.

Paskal Supporting Member of TMP21 Sep 2017 7:32 a.m. PST

The expedition of Heracles against Troy is when Heracles, who follows Jason in search of the golden fleece in Colchis, finds Hesione chained to a rock on the shore of Troy, entirely naked and adorned with her only jewels.

He breaks his chains and offers to kill the sea monster in exchange for two immortal white horses, which Zeus had offered to Tros, the grandfather of Laomedon, for the price of the rapture of Ganymede.

The Trojans then built a high wall some distance from the shore.

When the monster reaches the wall, it opens its enormous jaws, and Heracles enters armed in the throat of the monster.

After three days, he emerges victorious from the belly of the monster.

Laomedon would then have deceived Heracles by substituting two ordinary horses for the promised immortal horses.

Heracles embarks very angry after having threatened to wage war against Troy.

The latter recruits soldiers to Tiryns and boats (6 to 18, according to sources); he counts among his allies Iolaos, Telamon, Peleus, Oicles the Argian, Deimachus the Boeotian.

He landed near Troy, entrusting the guard of the ships to Occlès.

Laomedon sends the people equipped with swords and torches to burn the ships of Heracles, but Oicles resists until his last breath and allows them to return to the sea.

Heracles ordered the immediate assault of the city, and it was Telamon who succeeded in creating a breach in the wall and penetrating into the city.

Heracles kills Laomedon and all his sons, with the exception of the young Podares. Hesione is attributed to Telamon as a reward; she has permission to redeem the prisoner of her choice, and buys her brother Podares for the price of the veil of gold she bears on the forehead.

This is the name of Priam, which means "redeemed".

After having burned the city and devastated the environs, Heracles moved away from the Troad with Glaucia, daughter of the river Scamander, and leaving Priam on the throne.

In my opinion the Trojan War took place after 1350 BC because the heroes fight on foot, so they use 'Rail' type chariots…

I bought all the fgurines that exist in 25 to 30 mm called Mycennians or Trojans.

With those in Dendra armor (except Ajax of redoubt), the pikemen with 'towers' shields or shields in the form of a'8' , line archers and light infantrymen, I make a purely Mycenaean army of the XVI-XV century BC .

All the nobles are in Dendra armor and can not descend from their chariots to fight on foot.

With the figurines of a more recent time I set up a late army of the kind that besieged Troy, all the nobles are in chariots of the 'Rail' type …

Virtually all the chariots on sale are models that were no longer used in Trojan war, unlike their crews which often have the good outfits! …

Fortunately we find chariot crew figures for sale (without the chariot) in Dendra armor which allows me to give adequate crews to these chariots, and for their crews with late type armor (Of the Trojan War) I buy chaiots of the 'Rails' type (without crew)

For the Trojans, I use the figurines of the purely Trojan ranges and use the same system as for the Mycennians for their chariots and their crews.

I also made a beautiful army of the time of Homer with the famous shields shown by the Master of the Dipylon ect … (This army still does not exist in the trade?).

Now I only miss the trojan horse of redoubt, impossible to find one, even second hand, for sale!

A small note on the Mycenaean war chariots …

- The Mycenaean war chariot nicknamed "Box" is used at the most of 1550 to 1450 av. J.-C …
- The Mycenaean war chariot nicknamed "Quadrant" is used at the most of 1450 to 1375 av. J.-C …
- The Mycenaean war chariot nicknamed "Dual" is used at the most from 1460 to 1200 BC. J.-C …
- The Mycenaean war chariot with four wheels is used at the most of 1500 to 1100 av. J.-C …(And after during the dark times of Greece, but with some modifications. )
- The Mycenaean war chariot nicknamed "Rail" is used at most only from 1300 to 1150 BC. J.-C …(And after during the dark times of Greece, but with some modifications. )

Another strange type of Mycenaean war chariot seems attested on 2 fragment of the Khania krater found in Crete dated about 1250 BC. J.-C …

As you may or may not know, given the approximate dating of the Trojan war, the late Mycenaean used mainly the 'rail' chariot.

Winston Smith Supporting Member of TMP21 Sep 2017 9:01 a.m. PST

I always assumed that a man in Dendra Armor would be too overburdened by the weight to fight on foot. That's why mine were almost exclusively chariot Warriors.

Personal logo Dervel Supporting Member of TMP Fezian21 Sep 2017 9:31 a.m. PST

LOD Enterprises does a nice Troy set of toy soldiers in 60mm :)

Paskal Supporting Member of TMP22 Sep 2017 4:54 a.m. PST

Yes, me too Winston Smith and they are all in my army of the first Mycenians (long before Troy) and fight only from their chariots …

Thank you, Dervel, you have just given me a very great service !!!

Come In Nighthawk22 Sep 2017 1:03 p.m. PST

Just for the record, the horse is mentioned in Homer's "Odyssey" twice. Once in Book 4, and once in Book 8 (more extensively than the first; decribing how the clever Odysseus managed to keep his compadres quiet while hiding, thus avoiding detection).

Paskal Supporting Member of TMP23 Sep 2017 8:17 a.m. PST

And also in Virgil's Eneid, which describes the fall of Troy in the song II…

These stories of rams, of war machines, are real and fatiguing, all this is good for the Assyrians…

Personal logo Cacique Caribe Supporting Member of TMP24 Sep 2017 1:48 a.m. PST

"Which date do you prefer for the fall of Troy?"

I'd rather pick Helen as my date for watching the great event.


LORDGHEE24 Sep 2017 3:13 p.m. PST

And that is the problem right there! Cacique Caribe starter of wars and horse building and such.

Paskal Supporting Member of TMP29 Sep 2017 11:16 p.m. PST

I can not understand how the Hittites abandoned Troy …

Because the Trojan War is certainly not contemporary with the 'Neo-Hittites' …

The so-called neo states -hittites, or more recently Syro-Hittites, were political entities of the Louvite, Aramaic and Phoenician languages ​​that were created in the iron age in northern Syria and south of Anatolia, collapse of the Hittite Empire around 1180 BC. AD and lasted until about 700 BC. AD.

The term "neo-Hittite" is sometimes reserved specifically for the Lubite-speaking principalities such as Arslantepe and Karkemish, although in a broader sense the more global expression of "Syro-Hittite" culture is now applied to all entities that developed south of the central part of Anatolia after the fall of the Hittite empire – such as Tabal and Quwe – as well as those of northern Syria and its coastal areas.

GGouveia24 Jun 2018 5:29 p.m. PST

1190 bc

Uesugi Kenshin Supporting Member of TMP30 Jun 2018 11:00 a.m. PST

What date did the Brad Pitt movie debut?

mollinary02 Jul 2018 2:07 a.m. PST

Next Thursday would be good for me, if it suits you?

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