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"Rhys ap Thomas livery? " Topic

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Wargamer Dave14 Sep 2017 10:32 a.m. PST

Rhys ap Thomas (the Welshman who probably killed Richard III at Bosworth) has a flag like this:

Thanks to Ray Roussel's blog: link

Would his men-at-arms and archers wear a similar livery?

GurKhan14 Sep 2017 2:53 p.m. PST

The list at link claims white livery for Rhys ap Thomas. But I suppose this might be guesswork, based on the white background of his standard, since the body of the standard was usually at this period in the livery colour(s).

Warspite118 Sep 2017 5:05 p.m. PST

The blog link quoted is actually my article for Hobilar magazine from some years ago. As it happens I am working on a second edition of this article for a future Hobilar.

Yes it is true that the background colour of the standard is normally thought of as the owner's livery and there are known examples where they tally. However in drafting the second edition items have come to light which suggest that liveries may be more flexible than we thought.

For example some lords and kings are known to have departed from the colour/s of their standards for events or jousts. Henry VII used red and black at his coronation and not his normal 'white and green'.

The Howard Duke of Norfolk also used black for members of his family and this was repeated in writing by Edward IV when he made a gift of cloth to the Howards in that stated livery colour of black. This last situation suggests that the colour of the lord's standard may have been the 'wartime' livery for the common soldiers while the inner household or close personal men may have worn something different, at least in peacetime.


Wargamer Dave20 Sep 2017 9:35 a.m. PST

Thank you Barry. Please link back the way to get to the article when it's out!

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