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"What does skirmish mean to you?" Topic


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722 hits since 12 Sep 2017
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Personal logo Ed the Two Hour Wargames guy Sponsoring Member of TMP12 Sep 2017 11:34 a.m. PST

What does skirmish mean to you?

1 figure one man?
If so how many figures make it a skirmish game?
What's the maximum?
What about units?
Two, three?
Is there a maximum?
Or is it something all together different?

MajorB12 Sep 2017 11:41 a.m. PST

1 figure one man

If so how many figures make it a skirmish game?
As many as the game system can handle

What's the maximum?
Depends on the rules, but I've seen skirmish games with as many as 100 figures per side

What about units?
What about them?

Personal logo Private Matter Supporting Member of TMP12 Sep 2017 11:43 a.m. PST

That's like asking "How long is a piece of string?" The easiest answer is one figure equals one man with the maximum being what can be controlled by a player in a single game. I've played what I would call a large skirmish with 250 figures on each side. It was a game of Sharp Practice. I've also played skirmish games with as few as one player controlled figure. All Things Zombie is the game that comes to mind on that one.

The only thing that I would say is a constant, at least in my book, to make something a skirmish game is that each figure represents on person. Everything else is up for debate.

Joes Shop Supporting Member of TMP12 Sep 2017 11:55 a.m. PST

PM: +1

Frothers Did It And Ran Away12 Sep 2017 12:08 p.m. PST

I usually take it to be one figure is one man, and each figure activates individually. Games where figures are single based but activate in groups I tend to refer to as 'big' skirmish for clarity's sake.

Dynaman878912 Sep 2017 12:26 p.m. PST

I usually like to have about 10-30 discreet units per side in a game between two players.

Rich Bliss Supporting Member of TMP12 Sep 2017 12:56 p.m. PST

1 figure equals one man. A player can only run 10-20 figures. Generally is "Whatmyounsee is what you have" in terms of weapons.

Ed Mohrmann Supporting Member of TMP12 Sep 2017 12:57 p.m. PST

What Private Matter said…

DungeonDelver12 Sep 2017 1:19 p.m. PST

One fig = one person, preferably with a ground scale equal to or at least close to the figure scale

John Secker Supporting Member of TMP12 Sep 2017 2:06 p.m. PST

Yes, one figure equals one man, with individual activation. You could model companies 1:1 in 3mm and mount them on platoon bases, and it wouldn't be a skirmish game in my book. Skirmish isn't just a figure ratio, it is also about the size of the battle and the level of control.

Generalstoner49 Supporting Member of TMP12 Sep 2017 2:31 p.m. PST

1 to 1 scale and less than 50 models a side.

coopman Supporting Member of TMP12 Sep 2017 2:46 p.m. PST

The complexity of the rules can really limit what size of force one person can run and keep track of. TSATF is relatively easy, for example, as individuals do not tend to have RPG'ish traits that you have to remember and look up the stats for. A game where the characters have stamina, wounds, melee strength, firepower strength, etc., can get kind of overwhelming IMO. Skirmish level to me is def. 1 figure = one man. Units being 6-12 figures each. I like the kind of game that Lion Rampant and such offer.

Tony S12 Sep 2017 3:02 p.m. PST

I'll echo everyone's opinion and agree that skirmish is 1:1 man to figure scale in my book.

As for units…in WW2, by and large, soldiers did not act as individuals; they acted as units, under the command of a leader. That's why recruits learn to march in close order. It's not a terribly useful formation for modern combat, but it trains the young men to operate as a unit, and to subsume their individuality and to obey their leader. I personally like skirmish games that model that.

Depending on the level of the skirmish game (ie a squad game versus a platoon) sometimes individual soldiers might have differing attributes, and perhaps react differently to the stresses of combat, or whether to obey their leader, but again – they are part of a unit, not berserker warriors.

Being in a WW2 army is like being on a football team, not being in the boxing ring.

Sobieski12 Sep 2017 5:45 p.m. PST

A substitute for a tactical wargame.

Lion in the Stars12 Sep 2017 6:27 p.m. PST

WW2 histories will talk about a company skirmish, but I really call a skirmish a game with not more than about a platoon per side.

If we're talking 1:1 fig:man ratios, well, Forward March Studios is doing that in 3mm Napoleonics, and I have enough Americans to put an entire Airmobile battalion (9 platoons) on the table in Vietnam. But those are both multibased, not one figure per base (FMS is doing one or two companies per base, and my 'Murricans are 2-4 per base, move as platoons).

The game I play most is Infinity, where you have 10-20 models per side and they all activate individually (or could activate individually).

I'm willing to consider 'fireteam' games where you have teams/squads as the basic unit of action as still being a skirmish (like Force on Force or small games of Battlegroup), but once you get to multiple platoons per side I have a hard time calling that a skirmish.

But then I like the small, special forces type games.

Mike Mayes Supporting Member of TMP12 Sep 2017 6:32 p.m. PST

To me, skirmish means 1 model = 1 figure, ground scale is. close to figure scale, (all as mentioned previously) and figure removal for casualties plus heroics are possible. It also means not bathtubing a battle.

Mike

Green Tiger Supporting Member of TMP13 Sep 2017 1:11 a.m. PST

I believe that a skirmish wargame should equate to battlefield skirmishing. So whatever the figure scale you are using should feature no more than a couple of units per side. Units should be platoons or companies at most.

VVV reply13 Sep 2017 2:45 a.m. PST

Where each soldier has a name.

WillieB Supporting Member of TMP13 Sep 2017 3:25 a.m. PST

Blood Eagle and Tribal are skirmish in my mind. One figure is one man and the ground scale is as near to figure scale as possible.

'Big' skirmish or small battle is for example Dux Britanniarum or Sharp Practice ( both favourites of mine) with about 10 small units a side and individual 'heroes' or leaders.

Personal logo optional field Supporting Member of TMP13 Sep 2017 9:28 a.m. PST

1 figure one man?

Generally, yes but I can accept small squads acting as units as part of skirmish game; All the more so if there are rules for individual characters/heros/&c.

If so how many figures make it a skirmish game?

There is no minimum for it to qualify as a skirmish game, in my opinion at least.

What's the maximum?

As a rough guide, I would say under 20 per side, but that could vary.

What about units?

It can vary, but I would say not more than 20 per side. I can also accept very few units per side (e.g. I can easily see a single machine gun nest with crew, and a tank destroyer facing a platoon of infantry as a skirmish game).

Two, three? Is there a maximum? Or is it something all together different?<

The number of units is not the most important thing as far as I am concerned; As long as it plays quickly, I can view it as a skirmish. I can accept knowing that 4 models per side with each model being an individual unit and a great deal of detail as a skirmish(e.g. Sergeant Smith is a lightly built man with outstanding morale, who carries a M1903 bolt-action rifle with a match grade barrel in addition to 1 potato masher grenade and 2 Mills Bombs, and has a sprained ankle). I can also accept 40 models per side as a skirmish, but not with the same level of detail (e.g. this squad consists of 10 Soviet soldiers armed with PPSH submachine guns, they fire & move as a unit, and they are either out-of-game or fully functional). I can also accept those two levels of detail co-existing in the game, (e.g. as many 2 Hour Wargames rules systems often do by creating "big men").

Winston Smith Supporting Member of TMP13 Sep 2017 11:38 a.m. PST

Does it matter how you define it?
I played Gloire for a while. In published scenarios, it featured 4 figures per side. I ran a "Rescue Roddy McCorley" game that had about 80 figures on each side. Worked marvelously.
Ditto with Fire and Steel. Each "faction" should have had at most 8 figures. I regularly ran games with over 100.

TSATF uses individual figures, and the book scenario uses a half platoon of 10 British figures.
Games with 200 figures on a side are not uncommon. I've played with 800.

MacDuff15 Sep 2017 4:05 p.m. PST

I'm afraid my opinion is at variance with 99% of the hobby and as such pretty irrelevant but if you look in memoirs and histories and engagement smaller than a pitched battle which was fought for limited or no strategic purpose and often involved forces totalling hundreds of men, sometimes more than a thousand. Not really 1 1:1 game for most of it.

However, since "skirmish games" have become reserved for patrol actions and battles are understood to be bigger, I am at a loss to describe the of so common in between military engagements that form the bulk of my wargames other than as "small engagements".

Carry on skirmishing folks!

Personal logo Ed the Two Hour Wargames guy Sponsoring Member of TMP15 Sep 2017 4:11 p.m. PST

All good stuff except one comment. Nah, just kidding. Thanks again for all the comments, much appreciated.
Ed

CATenWolde16 Sep 2017 4:19 a.m. PST

Contra to the above to a certain extent, I would say that there are two separate but widely recognized scales of "skirmish" gaming.

The first is 1:1 scale gaming, often with a more detailed (and rpg like) treatment of individual equipment and actions.

The second is small unit skirmishes, which I think is typified by The Sword and the Flame, but Lion Rampant is a very recent successor. These games involve a small number of units engaging in low level encounters – raids and patrols and the like – with figures usually individually based but actions taken by the unit.

For 1:1 scale games, depending on the complexity of the rules one player could control from 1 (GURPS hybrid characters level of detail) to 8-12 (Basic D&D Fighters level of detail) figures. For small unit skirmishes, each player could control say 1-4 fairly complex (British combined arms) or double that number fairly straightforward unit types (Zulus).

If you double those numbers, or have more than 2-3 players per side controlling those numbers of units, things can *really* slow down.

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