"1880's Chinese/Black Flag Figures" Topic

I am trying to locate figures for the Sino-French War of 1884-5. The French fought regular Chinese forces as well as the "Black Flags" who the French labeled as bandits, but who were actually an effective irregular army. For the Chinese regulars, the figures I know of are either too early: Taiping Rebellion, or too late: Boxer Rebellion. The Chinese, as well as the Black Flags should be wearing loose pajamas and conical hats and carrying modern (at least post flintlock) weapons. I'm interested in 25/28mm, at this point I am not too fussy.

Falcon Miniatures and The London War Room used to make dedicated 25mm French Indo-China ranges. The poses in Falcon's range were limited: usually two per troop type. I believe only the LWR range included Black Flag rebels.

Nick i had the same interest…i confirm what Henry Martini said…by the way some of our US friends can try to know the wereabouts of LWR moulds or even if the owner still have some stocks..i own a few samples of the Indochina range from LWR they were quite slim but 28mm and compatible with OG, Foundry ecc…a complte range of nice and very specificic minis including commands and musicians…in my opinion sme of the WF taiping range..i'm thinking at basic types baretorso and open handed could pass very well for Black Flags..in fact those BF were simply Chineese pirates…Have loook also at the Chinese Pirates set from Reviresco..nice multipose minis with separated typical/iconic coolie hats

ITALWARS, Thank you! I have some of the Reviresco Chinese Pirates, but I could not remember where I got them. Unfortunately they are no longer on the Tin Soldier website. I will contact the owner and see if they are still available.

Did you look at the Foundry Chinese catalog?

By the way, if any Falcon figures, a friend would be very interested.

Winston Smith, this seller on eBay has Falcon colonials. auction

I found the Reveiresco Chinese figures! They are on the Revieresco site tin-soldier.com under 1/64 Figures. They are called Chinese Irregulars. Perfect!

@Nick Stern
Hey, thanks for that link!

Look also at Castaway Arts Chinese

Durando, Castaway are nice, but they are not wearing the conical straw hat.

Hi Nick,

Last Stand Dan and I are working on the very same project now as well. We are planning on using his cool gunboats for the naval actions. Apparently we are all looking for Black Flag troops. My friend Pier (Italwars) has emailed me some good references and as you can see is working on this project and also searching for troops. I'm really looking forward to seeing what everyone comes up with troops wise.

Cheers,
JB

The new Osprey book on the Chinese Imperial army shows them wearing medium blue civilian clothes and a brown jerkin with a white circle with the Chinese character of their commander. They also wear larger than normal straw hats, not your normal conical hat, kind of like a Mexican sombrero with the crown cut way down. I just found these on the Caliver website, listed as Falcon Indo-Chinese Attacking and Riflemen

Since the bulk of my French are also Falcons, I am going to order a unit or two.

Here are the Reviresco Chinese Irregulars for camparison: tin-soldier.com/rpg5.html
I realize that they are not state of the art sculpts, but I am now 65 years old and I don't have time to wait for the perfect figures. Watch, the Perrys will now come out with the perfect figures…

I'm opinion the Falcon figures still have a certain charme…and , being chunky, once painted they fit well with modern ranges…..in their French Indochina range they have also a very useful Tirailleur Annamite running with rifle at trail..it's a very useful figure, it's little bigger than others and, being in Vietnamese traditional dress..with Kéo and baggy trousers i even converted some in Vietnamese/Chineese irregulars by substuing his rifle with a spear and pianting it in various colours

They do have a certain old school charm though, Nick.

Don't forget this Annamite Tirraileur from Forgotten Front Minis, also available from Caliver

I found a book on Amazon that may be of interest: Sino-French Naval War 1884-1885. It covers the land actions as well as the river and sea actions. Black Flags in Vietnam was a total waste of time, being mainly a political study of the period.

Nick, I read this post last night and ordered the naval book as I had an old Amazon gift card growing dust. Thanks for the advice.
Cheers,
JB

JB, I received the book today. I do not think you will be disappointed. It even includes technical line drawings of all the French and Chinese ships and boats involved. The French gunboats, to my mind, are very unique and streamlined looking for the period. Now I need to buy some Hotchkiss guns for my boat models.

Nick, you weren't kidding buddy! I ordered mine on Amazin and got it 2 days later. It is an Awesome book. Lots of great data and references. Thanks for the referral.
Cheers,
JB

The whole of South East Asia 1820-1884 is ripe for gaming potential

Durango,

What are some good pre-1880's possibilities? I am very interested in the period but know very little about the history, conflicts, and players. Thanks.

Gringo40s Miniatures is planning a range of figures for Indochina
facebook.com/GRINGO40S

How does anyone go about buying anything from Falcon?

Hi LeadJuncky, you have The First Anglo Burmese War, The Laos Uprising and Siamese Vietnamese war, I have made a start getting some 28mm Burmese troops made

link

link

Both from Steve Barber, and one must not forget Gringos40 Black Flags, which is a detailed and extensive range

I thought it might be worth briefly reemerging from the mists of lurkdom for a touch of thread necromancy, so…

I've been surveying the options with a view to building armies for and gaming this campaign myself*, and in the process I rediscovered this thread. I've developed some ideas I thought might be worth passing on. They'll be much too late to help Nick of course, but others might find them of value.

With potential conversion material for 'native' figures for this colonial campaign you've got to think outside the 'other Asian types' square and focus on what's out there that's closest in terms of costume and weapons. Heads and faces are secondary and can always be swapped/modified.

You're looking for figures in loose shirts, loose trousers mostly extending no lower than mid-shin, bare lower legs, and footwear of sandals or slippers. They should be armed with breech-loading rifles and preferably wearing loop-bandoliers (Black Flags and Chinese regulars), or flintlock/matchlock muskets, spears or Chinese polearms (Vietnamese regulars). If you follow my thought-trail you end up with:

1. Boxers, preferencing those with appropriate leg/footwear (see below). A few in puttees and closed shoes are probably acceptable.

2. Mahdist Jihadiya riflemen: just about everything is there; even the turbans that some wear are very close to the Chinese style. The shirts are on the longer side, but those worn by Black Flag irregulars and Chinese regulars varied in length. Depending on the sculpting the faces might need a bit of work, but as your selected figures should depict black southern Sudanese you could probably get away with just using an Asian skin tone.

3. Mexican peones or militia. Again, the faces might be Asian enough in appearance that no change is necessary, but because the sombrero isn't right for Vietnam you'll probably want to do head swaps.

Brand-wise I've personally decided to go with Old Glory because it's a one-stop shop: Boxers from the Boxer Rebellion range; Jihadiya from the Sudan range; Zapatistas from the Mexican Revolution range; Mexican militia from the Mexican-American War range.

In the case of Black Flag irregulars the first three types should be mixed for maximum variety of both costume and weapons. The Jihadiya riflemen have Martin-Henrys. One rifle used by these fighters was the Martini-Peabody, which superficially looks the same. It's also not that difficult to convert a Martini-Henry into a passable Remington, which was another rifle popular with these 'bandits'.

Three poses from the peones pack which wear loop-bandoliers can be used for the 1880s campaigns; two with Winchesters and one with a Mauser. Another pose, armed with a Mauser, wears a magazine pouch-belt, and can be added for the 1890s guerilla war. This does leave three poses in long trousers (two wearing shoes) that aren't usable for this conflict, so you should be in need of some Mexicans, sell them off, or just be prepared to accept the extra cost.

I'll only be using jihadiya for Chinese regulars, mainly for uniformity of weapons. The Mahdist command pack provides the essential standard bearers.

The Vietnamese regulars will use the Boxers with polearms and matchlocks, and the the Mexican militia with flintlock and bayonet. Spearmen can come from the Mahdist command pack. Units were composed of a mixture of these types (for TMWWBK they should be designated as Tribal Infantry with foot bows).

There might be some suitable figures among the various ranges of Pathans. I have the Old Glory packs and can attest to the fact that there's nothing in them that will work for Indochina.

I'm fortunate(?) in having on hand a supply of suitable heads in the form of some Falcon Indochina figures I ordered many moons ago but couldn't use because only part of the consignment ever arrived, and I got nowhere with the manufacturer in my attempts to procure the rest.

Even so, there won't be enough heads for all the figures, so I'll have to make a good number of salakots out of paper. This is easy enough: just use a hole-punch on thick paper, and with a small pair of scissors cut each circlet from the edge to the centre and shape and glue to whatever depth suits. Glue it to the figure's head, then coat with PVA glue to stiffen it. You could either paint on a straw effect or add a thin layer of Green Stuff and score a pattern into it with a craft knife.

*I'm aware of the Gringo40s range, but my French are Falcon and Old Glory, so the opposition needs to be size-compatible. Also, although the Gringo Black Flags are very good, there are just too many cases of Von Munchkinhausen's Syndrome (of varying degrees of severity) amongst that manufacturer's French figures.

there are just too many cases of Von Munchkinhausen's Syndrome (of varying degrees of severity) amongst that manufacturer's French figures

What do you mean?

Also, have you considered commissioning figures from Steve Barber?

I'd just add that, as far as the non-usability of those three poses in the Mexican Irregulars pack goes, it's conditional; of course, if you're prepared to put in the time and effort just about any conversion is possible.

Turning long trousers into 3/4-length pants and bare legs would be quite a job, but in the pertinent Foundry book Ian Heath mentions that some Black Flags wore gaiters, which might be less of a challenge.

As one of the poses in question is standing firing a Winchester it would be very useful to be able to use it. That pose, though, is actually a conversion of a figure from the SAW Cuban Rebels pack, which is depicted in a military tunic, so you'd also need to convert that garment into a shirt. I've already done this with several such figures, along with swapping their heads, for my Mex Rev Zapatista army.

I also intend to sculpt Green Stuff bandoliers around the waists of any figures without them.

So far I've only addressed the topic in general terms, but having gone through my three Old Glory Boxer packs and done some sifting and organising I can now discuss some specifics; at least as they relate to the Old Glory range, anyway.

I have enough suitably-dressed(see above) polearm men/swordsmen for two mixed armament Tribal Infantry (Vietnamese Regulars) units; i.e. seven per unit.

It seems that the Vietnamese favoured the long spear over polearms, so these will have their polearms removed and replaced with wire spears.

I separated the swordsmen poses in appropriate costume that are suitable for conversion to standard bearers/spearmen from their companions, too.

What I end up with is two sixteen-figure strong units with six spearmen, seven shooters, a standard bearer, a drummer/gongist(my term), and an officer. One unit's shooters will consist of the seven appropriately-dressed matchlockmen I have, and the other's will be converted from Mexican militia with flintlock and bayonet.

That does leave a bunch of Boxers I won't be using for this project, but they will find other uses. If you don't have a use for Boxers or generic Chinese bandits this might not be the best and most economical way to go.

The painted Vietnamese and Black Flags will be mixable with the other Chinese to up the numbers in Chinese bandit forces, too.

Only using seven out of a pack of thirty Mexican militia might appear wasteful, but have no fear: the rest will be put to good use – and as Mexicans!

These two low-quality units will really just exist to add variety to the Indochinese opposition to the French and use up spare points. Also, it would just seem odd not to give the Vietnamese representation in the resistance to the French invasion of Vietnam.

When above I suggested rating the Vietnamese regulars as foot bow-armed for TMWWBK I certainly didn't mean the 'sharpshooters' upgrade. Only their firing range should be increased. After all, only half the unit has firearms.

A point of interest: the Boxer gongist has the same body as one of the drummers in the Pathan command pack.

It turns out that I won't need that Mahdist command pack after all. :- )

Henry Martini, I'm looking forward to seeing your conversions and paint jobs. I too am building forces for this conflict. I have some extra Ansar rifleman that will be transferred East!

I don't think I posted photos of my Tuyen Quong game 2 years ago
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Great photos Nick, awesome troops! Looks like it was great fun. What rules did you use? TSATF?

SgtGuiness, thanks! We used The Men Who Would Be Kings.

Always had an interest but too many other projects. This topic brings a lot of good information.
Thanks

You're very welcome, takeda333. Your interest is my reward; it makes the time spent posting worthwhile.

Sgt Guinness – I'm not one for posting photos, I'm afraid. Just let your imagination do the job.

One more point: you should of course use a black undercoat, as that will be the defining 'colour' for these figures. Mid-dark blue can and should be used for Black Flag clothing items too, though. The Chinese regulars wore an orange uniform with black trim, and the Vietnamese can be painted like the Black Flags as they tended not to wear their uniforms in the field.

I've been incorrectly denominating one of the musicians from the OG Boxer packs: it's actually a cymbalist, not a gongist.

Awesome pics, Nick!!! What's the origin story on your French gunboat? As you mentioned way back in 2017, it looks very streamlined -- did you buy it or scratch build it?

PS. "TMWWBK"?!?!?! Another convert to the New Colonialism?!?!?! Say it ain't so, Nick!!!

Ah, well, that's okay -- I know you sample any/all new rules systems, and I admit I own a copy myself.

MG, I got the gunboat from Gringo 40s. link
TMWWBK has its good points. It's streamlined, but at the cost of some of the period feel of TSATF. I have a copy of Brom's Indochina variant, but have yet to try it out.

After rereading the Indochina section of the Heath Foundry book I've decided that polearms should be part of the Vietnamese regulars mix, along with the occasional figure with a breechloader, and that the antiquity and poor condition of their firearms justify rating them as standard Tribal Infantry – but without the ability to go to ground or ignore terrain penalties. This will bring their points cost down to two per unit.

So how did you guys rate out the different kinds of Viet and BF infantry for Kings? Just curious as to how the units and weapon types fit into the game?
Thank you for your ideas,thoughts,interest and superb info on this period.

Here's my take. After my game, I down graded the rifle armed BFs. They were just too powerful.

BF Rifles: Irregular, Modern Rifle, Poor Shots

BF Melee Weapons: Tribal, Melee Weapons and Rag Tag Muskets

Chinese Border Troops Irregular, Modern Rifle Poor Shots, Veteran

Thanks Nick, your info is so helpful. I'm tethering on this as I have some books. Do you roll BF leaders as tribal or irregular?
Thank you!

Oops Nick, what's the mix of rifle BF to melee?

takeda333,

Three units of Black Flags, four units of what I called: Forlorn Hope Black Flags (melee weapons) and three units of Chinese Border Troops. The BF leaders were all 6s, IIRC.

Thanks so much Nick!

Hi Nick, with the above BF units what do you use for the French units? Any ratings for Viet army units? If so, how many?
This is slowly coming together thanks to your help.

takeda333,
In my game, the fortified town was garrisoned by three units of French Foreign Legion: Regular, Elite, Fierce; one unit of Tonkinese Rifles: Irregular, Veteran, Well Armed and one Well Drilled Mountain Gun. In the river there was a French gunboat with a Well Drilled Field Gun and a unit of Marine Infantry: Regulars

Thanks Nick for your help, much appreciated.😀

takeda333, you are very welcome. Please keep us posted on your progress.