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"Eastern friendly indians" Topic

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Pauls Bods25 Aug 2017 6:47 a.m. PST


couple more pics on the blog

RudyNelson25 Aug 2017 8:15 a.m. PST

I like the concept, based on history of rival native confederations to hinder or help new colonies
Look at those in the Northeast and the southeast. In the 1790s, the Muskogee lower Creek nations banded together to block the Spanish in Florida. They not only had a flag and was recognized by the British, they had a two ship navy.
The Chickasaw in Mississippi region halted the French on several occasions in those years.
The Cherokee and Iroquois dominated their regions.
I do not support the concept of friendly Indians. I did a series of articles called Under Ne Sun or Our Place Under the Sun. It was a military review of the history of tribes.

Ottoathome Inactive Member26 Aug 2017 3:27 p.m. PST

Dear Paul

Thanks for posting this. I am considering a new Imagi-Nation for my 18th century set up. "Iroquoia" a large confederation of tribes, sort of the Five Nations on Steroids that could stand up the Europeans.

Pauls Bods27 Aug 2017 1:28 a.m. PST

Good idea. Im having a bit of a re-think with my Imagi-Nation, particually the Native Population. Basically I wanted to Keep Relations between the colonists and the locals more or less on a friendly Basis but that makes the scope for Action limited. The day to day civilian activities are ok but as they get more and more complex, not much fun. I added pirates into the mix with a view to adding some armed friction but I know see it would be limited and short term. If the natives and colonists get along then the pirates as a third force wouldnt be able to stand up to them for Long. So unless I bring in another external "european" force, which would mean painting up a whole new lot of figs, which time and Money doesnt allow, Im reduced to having to create friction among the natives and the colonists.

Ottoathome Inactive Member27 Aug 2017 11:50 a.m. PST

Dear Pauls Bods

understand what you mean. My desire for "Iroquoia" is to make the historical Indian Council of the five nations into something that can actually stand up to the White Man on a somewhat equal footing. As such much of it is in the backstory. For example Iroquoia allows selective settling in the Indian lands to whites who will bring In needed skills, like how to repair firearms, blacksmithing etc. to end the critical dependence on the white man, and oddly enough LAWYERS who specialize in the law of land and deeds to fight the Easterners in their own court. Of course all of this is way unhistorical but is lot of fun in building unique "armies" of Iroquois and how they are going to sustain prolonged campaigns etc.

I too am interested in the day to day relations and interactions between the cultures and the relations been Iroquoia

By the way I also have relations between the Indians and "the other Indians." That is in the Imagi-Nation world between Iroquia and the Indian confederacies in Eastern India, the Mahabahamarimba Confederacy, and the Sultanate of Grungypoor. So now I can have Iroquois war bands in the same army as the Mahabahamarimban war elephants. What's next? Zulu allies of Grungypoor?

Pauls Bods28 Aug 2017 7:33 a.m. PST

Aha!! :-) Ive sort of touched on the lawyers Thing in that the settlers (the Bodstonians) are a bit more enlightened in thier dealings with the locals, forbidding any hunting etc without permission of the native Indians, sharing ideas etc. Im also considering how not only the settlers pass on thier ideas to the native but also in the other direction. A lot to think about.

Ottoathome Inactive Member28 Aug 2017 9:24 a.m. PST

Dear Pauls

Many colonies especially Massachusetts invited the Indians to send a few prominent youths to their schools and colleges.

In my work in progress in Iroquoia I have the Iroquois adopting a pro-active approach in that they take advantage of the always repeated offer to let Indian children attend white man schools. Here the craft tribal leaders have them study the law, especially land law and thus able to outwit the white man in his own courts.

The Indians now have their own sharks and in addition to war chiefs and medicine chiefs, they now have law chiefs.This helps a lot to keep them independent and many white men note that the law chiefs can scalp you cleaner than any warrior without even breaking the skin.

As for the cross trading of ideas, you should read Cronin's "Changes in the Land" where he deals with the different ideas of land use and tenure. He and others also note that the Indian lands exerted a powerful influence on settlers who wanted to escape the confines and strictures of the Eastern Seaboard, and went out into the woods, and became not only mountain men, but dwellers in the Indian lands and adopting the Indian way of life and many indian elements.

The big problem in any of this is in the lack of Indian society for any form of coercion. A chief could only get his warriors to obey by gift giving, which was temporary and all too free and easy. The ability of even fathers to get their sons to obey them is notorious. An Indian chief had a hard time getting his braves to follow him if they didn't want to.

But…. this is wargames…. this is Imaginations. We can do what we wish.

RudyNelson29 Aug 2017 3:14 p.m. PST

You clearly did not read the series of articles on Native native military society that was published in Time Portal Passages back in the 1990s, if you think "big problem in any of this is in the lack of Indian society for any form of coercion." Eastern nations had very well developed societies. War was only one aspect and varied between nations. In the Southern Muskogee tradition, war chiefs as the average person would call them, was actually a series of ranks with each rank (given as the result of bravery) being higher with benefits of status, food, plunder, etc. Such famed war chiefs would command different numbers of warriors based on fame/ rank.
The Free State of Muskogee did exist and was recognized by the British as an independent nation. Status was based on the rank of the mother which is one reason traders (Scots being common) had sons who rose to be chiefs since they married a Town's chiefs (Wind clan) daughter.

Ottoathome Inactive Member30 Aug 2017 3:42 a.m. PST

No I don't bother with anything but scholarly works and professional histories. ANYTHNING in something called Time portal passages has no standing compared to Wilderness Empire and other real histories.

Pauls Bods30 Aug 2017 8:57 a.m. PST

Thanks for the book tip Otto, Ive ordered it :-)
Edit----It should arrive tomorrow!!

The big problem in any of this is in the lack of Indian society for any form of coercion. A chief could only get his warriors to obey by gift giving, which was temporary and all too free and easy.

Ive no real Knowledge of North american Indian culture but could that "weakness", the gift giving, be one of the Things used (abused) by the settlers ? Getting a tribe onside or turning one against another?

Ottoathome Inactive Member31 Aug 2017 9:57 a.m. PST

Dear Paul

I have several more on Indian anthropology and culture but they are all packed up for a move. Changes in the Land though will have an excellent bibliopgraphy which will yield dozens of works.

Pauls Bods16 Sep 2017 1:37 a.m. PST

Finished reading it. Bit of hard going at first but well worth reading. Many Thanks for the recommendation Otto thumbs up thumbs up

Ive no real Knowledge of North american Indian culture but could that "weakness", the gift giving, be one of the Things used (abused) by the settlers ? Getting a tribe onside or turning one against another?

It answered my Question along with a heck of a lot more and has given me a totally new perspective Colonialst/Indian Relations and interactions.

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