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"Some asks for Old Glory" Topic

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1,504 hits since 18 Aug 2017
©1994-2018 Bill Armintrout
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axabrax18 Aug 2017 11:29 a.m. PST

First of all let me say I love OG. They do niche periods that no one else does, and I personally like the sculpting style. However, I have a few humble requests:

- Please photograph all of your figures. I will lend you my cell phone if you need a camera. At this very moment I am waffling on making a purchase because I have no idea what the figures look like. Back in the 20th century there may have been good excuses not to do this, but not so much now. I would rather see mediocre quality photos than nothing.

- Please at least tell me how many figures there are in every pack and generally what they are doing. I am having the same waffling on another pack right now because I know nothing about the contents of the pack. It seems like some of the packs I am interested in have no description at all.

- Please do not make me buy 100 figures when I only want 30 or 40. It's not the money. I simply don't need all of those 30 figures per pack, and I'm running out of space. It''s a waste of good figures! I know you cast on demand, but somehow every other manufacturer in this business manages to find a way to do this. I don't want to sell the extras on eBay and my friends don't want them. Maybe I can find a homeless gamer who's looking for figure hand outs. I would actually be willing to pay more per figure in order to buy say 10 figures instead of 30.

Thanks for listening. I'll try again in a few years :-)

Your fan


cavcrazy18 Aug 2017 11:54 a.m. PST

And Brunswickers, do Napoleonic Brunswickers!

Old Glory Sponsoring Member of TMP18 Aug 2017 12:32 p.m. PST

If this applies to OG 25 Blue moon etc. I will respond. If this is directed to OG 15s up in Michigan I cannot speak for them, however I strongly suspect their answer would be similar?
For some years now we have kept up with photos as we offer new releases thanks to the heroic work of our photographer, web keeper, etc., etc., Teresa.
As far as going back and taking pictures of old ranges I am afraid this is a little more complex then just having a cell phone? Here is just a sampling of why.

1. You need to have the figure -- there are more then 60,000 molds in the Old glory factory!!!?? Each figure would have to be found, cast and then…..

2. Cleaned, primed, perhaps painted and prepared to be photographed and then…..

3. We prepare ourselves for the onslaught of complaints such as "poor photography, they should be painted, front and back pictures, comparison photos of other manufactures (why anyone would advertise a competitors line is beyond me???)Etc. etc. etc" and then …..

4. After hours of casting, prepping, photography, downloading, etc. --in most cases the figures then must be discarded into the trash as they have been primed, painted etc. and they cannot go back into the pot due to the paint.

5. In that same time period we still must cast, bag, package, mold make fill, ship, bill, photograph new product, maintain the plant, metal unloaded (over two tons a month)etc. for the hundreds of order per day we receive?

As far as the packaging , the whole OLD GLORY business model is based on the molding and packaging --many people do care about the price per figure and the last 30 years the business model has worked quite well --its kind of like wanting to buy just one green M and M -- you just cant.

This model has worked very well the last 30 years with OG selling well over 100 million figures in that time period so I would be very cautious about changing that formula?

Its not that I do not understand what your are saying --I do. This is just the cold hard facts of the situation.

At least there is an answer.

Russ Dunaway

nickinsomerset18 Aug 2017 12:42 p.m. PST

Perhaps invite customers to send photos of their painted stuff, perhaps a quarterly competition with bonus points for images of figures that do not feature!!

Tally Ho!

Old Glory Sponsoring Member of TMP18 Aug 2017 12:51 p.m. PST

Once again, if this is addressed to OG in Pennsylvania --we do solicit photos and use them --not that many actually come in and certainly not by "code number."

I feel as if I am on a bit of a mine field here --but, oh well -- I am a glutton for punishment?

Russ Dunaway

axabrax18 Aug 2017 1:14 p.m. PST

Thanks for the response. This is directed to the website and 25mm ranges. I will often go and look at the Old Glory 25s site as well to see if there are pictures there when there are none of the other site. (Most of the time the pictures aren't there either.)

I hear that you are saying "you can't satisfy everyone" and "someone is always going to grouse," but I really can't believe anyone wanting to buy would say "if you're not going to paint/photograph them all beautifully I don't want to see them at all before I make a purchase."

It's also sort of sounds to me like you're saying "people will buy the stuff whether or not we improve the customer experience, so why bother? And if we lose a few sales here and there it won't really hurt the business."

Fair enough. Acceptable losses and all that.

I think the suggestion about crowdsourcing the photos is a good one. Why not offer a one dollar coupon to anyone who takes a bare metal photo that represents a pack on sale? Yes the photos will look inconsistent, but there will be photos :-) Or maybe some inspired person will try to create an Old Glory mug shot photo gallery for you…


Anyway, I tried. As you say, it probably won't prevent me from making purchases with Old Glory.

Personal logo Miniatureships Sponsoring Member of TMP18 Aug 2017 1:40 p.m. PST

We have made offers to customers in the past, but the issues are the same things that we face when it comes to photographing the minis – keeping the codes organized.

First, customers are happy to send us photos of their painted work, just don't ask for the code number. One, it has taken time to paint the minis, which means that most of the packaging has already been tossed. Two, the units being photographed are often a mixed assortment of codes that are based are ready for gaming.

We have let painting services know that we will credit them the painting work done of the figures that we photograph, but even they don't take up the offer for free advertising.

The Beast Rampant18 Aug 2017 2:17 p.m. PST

You don't NEED to paint the minis. I'd rather they not be painted. And either way, less than optimal pics are better than none at all.

If I can't see what I'm wanting to buy, I Google or ask here. If that turns up nothing I don't bother. $36 USD is too much to pay to speculate.

You act like the pics go stale. A few all along would go along way. Pics sell product. Others seem to manage this without so much fuss. They must need a forklift to take out the garbage.

Brian Smaller Inactive Member18 Aug 2017 2:18 p.m. PST

I will send you a few pics along with the codes that I have and you are free to use them or not. Always loved your stuff and I found the 30 figure bags to be just right given I go for 24 figure horse and musket units – the extras always seem to come in handy somewhere along the line.

Henry Martini18 Aug 2017 3:14 p.m. PST

Yes, spare figures can be turned into the markers that are an essential element of most rules systems these days, or painted and even based along with the rest so that you have an instant replacement figure or element on hand for every unit, should damage occur.

Old Glory Sponsoring Member of TMP18 Aug 2017 3:15 p.m. PST

BOOM !!!! One land mine stepped on !!! 😆

Personal logo Toy Soldier Green Supporting Member of TMP18 Aug 2017 4:50 p.m. PST

I believe that and are 2 different companies with the latter being the actual Old Glory in PA.

Grelber18 Aug 2017 7:22 p.m. PST

Just my two cents, but I also would like nice photos, in part because I often want to use the figures for conversions, and the less converting I have to do, the better.

A work around that is sometimes helpful is to check the Old Glory UK website for photos--they have some that aren't on the US sites. Also, Google can sometimes find photos on somebody's blog or website.


Garryowen Supporting Member of TMP19 Aug 2017 4:39 a.m. PST

Yes, more photos would be nice, but Old GLory gives us a tremendous variety of wonderful figures and superb service at a fair price, particularly with Old Glory Army. To me all of that is so important that I won't be put off by a shortage of photos.

Many years ago I was in the lead soldier manufacturing business in a very small way. I certainly appreciate all Russ has said.

For new manufacturers with a few dozen or even a few hundred molds, photos of everything would be much easier. The cost in time and money of "catching up" on 60,000 molds would be overwhelming.

I can get by with the way things are and am thankful for what Old Glory has done and is doing.


jsmcc9119 Aug 2017 5:17 a.m. PST

I agree with Russ. There is a lot of work to go through a backlog when you have a large catalog. With all of the companies out there, many of them are small enough to take pictures of the figures as they produce them new. Old Glory is taking pictures of the new figures as the come out with them. The catalog of miniatures that they have is a harder objective. You can only do so much. Remember, there is only so many staff that you have at many companies and I understand where Russ is coming from with trying to deal with orders and shipping as their initial focus. It is not like they are trying to purposely ignore requests for pictures of all of their ranges. You would have to have one dedicated staff member with 60,000 molds to cast, de-sprue, clean, prepare, wash, photograph, edit and upload the figures to the online catalog. The Old Glory and Blue Moon ranges are the very reasonable priced for sure and no one likes to lose a sale to a customer. Sometimes we have to have a reality check when it comes to having a large catalog illustrated by pictures online. Not everyone has resources like staffing to take up such a large undertaking. Sending in pictures of customer's product is a positive thing to do, but as it is stated, sometimes they are not per item number, but the gesture is welcomed. Let's commend Old Glory for standing the test of time and providing us a outlet to purchase toy soldiers for a hobby.

Tin hat19 Aug 2017 9:04 a.m. PST

I wonder how many of the 100 million figures that Old Glory have sold have been painted……..

davbenbak Supporting Member of TMP19 Aug 2017 9:18 a.m. PST

Russ, thanks for your attempt to walk though a mine field. I also work in retail and I can understand how difficult it can be to tell a customer "No". Perhaps a list could be made of all the lot numbers that don't have a picture. If a customer does order that lot and the mold has to be used to fulfill that order then commit to photographing it. I wouldn't think you would need to spend any extra time cleaning it up or painting the figure. It should be an accurate depiction of what the customer will receive. And while some might want front and back pictures, I think any picture would be better than none. I am among those who have not ordered a particular figure from your site due to it not having a picture.

Personal logo Doctor X Supporting Member of TMP19 Aug 2017 4:30 p.m. PST

There must be a break even here as an incentive for the mfg to do this activity.

For fun, lets make the following assumptions:

1) Half the figures aren't pictured. So there is a need for 30,000 pictures.

2) Someone put in charge of the rather unspecialized activity of cleaning and photographing can do almost 100 figures a day. That is roughly a figure every 5 minutes over an 8 hour day.

3) The person performing this task gets paid $15 USD/hour as a contract employee to do this task and only this task, then they are done. So essentially, not an employee and receives no benefits.

4) Russ says they receive hundreds of orders a day. So I will make that 200 orders per day. I'm going to assume only a 5 day work week, which probably isn't the case, but it makes the math easier. So Russ gets 1,000 orders a week total.

5) Its hard to say what the average order size is and Old Glory gives massive discounts. So I'll just say everyone orders one pack of figures at $36 USD each to keep it simple and say an average order is therefore $36 USD

6) I have no facts on what the net profit would be for Old Glory but I'll use a number of 5% as it seems reasonable based on the many companies I've worked with from very large to very small.

The math then looks like this:

30,000 figures at 96 figures a day = 312.5 days of work. That is 63 5-day work weeks with no break!

The labor cost would be 312.5 days x 8 hours a day x $15 USD per hour or $37,500 USD as the total cost for photographing for the website.

So a typical weeks sales are 1,000 orders @ $36 USD average order size or $36,000 USD in sales.

Using the 5% net profit that equates to $1,800 USD of gross profit a week.

So if just photos on the website caused Old Glory to grow by 10%, it would take the $37,500 USD cost divided by the additional growth ($1,800 net profit per week x the 10% growth or $180 USD dollars per week) or 208 weeks to break even at 10% growth. That is 4 years just to recoup the cost on this.

The exercise above is simplistic at best and there are lots of general assumptions made. For example, 10% growth might bring additional cost to Old Glory meaning it would take longer to get your money back. Example, adding the photos to the website would also have a labor cost, a maintenance cost, and possibly some infrastructure cost which I didn't factor in.

So in the end, knowing it would take at best 4 years and probably more like 6+ years after all costs for you to see any net increase in profits, if you were the owner, would you do this?

Old Glory Sponsoring Member of TMP19 Aug 2017 6:03 p.m. PST

We just supplied OG UK with an $18,000 USD order and Noble Night games with a $12,000 USD order!!
I responded here because I wanted everyone to know I am not just being an ass about it. We have discussed many times beginning the process of going back over that ground, everyone just kind of sighs and sits there looking at each other -- perhaps someday but soon I will be 67 so ?????? Perhaps the next victim can do it ???

Old Glory operated many years with absolutely no Web presence, thus no photos. Once we entered the "Web world" we have pretty much photographed everything we have -- that alone is a task and is only accomplished by the heroic efforts of Teresa, as already stated.
Also, there are endless issues that arise that are just unforseen-- just this week we had a $600 USD package we had shipped to a customer in Russia marked rejected and returned by customs because of the "density of the package??????" We have sent this fellow many parcels with no problems -- countless hours fixing this with postage costs etc. --- not complaining, just saying ???
Anyone who wants to come work a day, just let me know and then you can spend the evening hours picking little white boogers out of YOUR nose.

Russ Dunaway

Disco Joe Inactive Member19 Aug 2017 6:07 p.m. PST

At this stage of the game you could say it would be a tall order to do. I of course am like some who will not purchase figures site unseen after getting caught a few times by other manufacturers. What the ideal situation would have been is of course as they came out with new figure packs they should have taken photos of them and posted them on their website which they didn't do. By doing that all along they could have eliminated this daunting task which as others have pointed out is unmanageable. As they say hindsight as opposed to foresight.

Old Glory Sponsoring Member of TMP19 Aug 2017 6:11 p.m. PST

We didn't have a Web site Joe -- as stated, once we had a Web site we have done that.

Disco Joe Inactive Member19 Aug 2017 7:00 p.m. PST

How many years didn't you have a website and when did you get a website?

Old Glory Sponsoring Member of TMP19 Aug 2017 7:17 p.m. PST

Enough. Since we have had a web site we have had photos of new product.

Disco Joe Inactive Member19 Aug 2017 7:26 p.m. PST

Which of course means you didn't have an opportunity to take photos of the items you had made before the website was created and the new products were posted to it.

wrgmr119 Aug 2017 7:59 p.m. PST

DJ, I have been looking at the OG website for many years and can't remember not getting an image for figures I looked at. Really buddy are you upset at OG or just anyone who doesn't put up photos? Would you like some cheese with that wine?

Old Glory Sponsoring Member of TMP19 Aug 2017 8:02 p.m. PST

LOL --- OH WELL ????

Henry Martini19 Aug 2017 8:23 p.m. PST

Axabrax – why not just ask TMPers who've purchased the figures you're interested in for their opinion and/or to post photos of them here.

Old Glory Sponsoring Member of TMP19 Aug 2017 8:58 p.m. PST

I suppose the only other possible answers left then are:

1.We are just stupid
2. We are to lazy
3. We actually enjoy annoying people
4. We really don't want you to purchase our product
5. We have a pathological fear of cameras and cell phones
6. We are a disorganized mess incapable of accomplishing anything -- let alone sculpt, make molds, cast soldiers and ship them

PS. None of this directed at the OP who just asked a legitimate question.

Russ Dunaway

Disco Joe Inactive Member20 Aug 2017 4:33 a.m. PST

Thomas, so then apparently in this thread you didn't read all the reasons Russ gave that he found it hard to do this such as:
"As far as going back and taking pictures of old ranges I am afraid this is a little more complex then just having a cell phone? Here is just a sampling of why.

1. You need to have the figure -- there are more then 60,000 molds in the Old glory factory!!!?? Each figure would have to be found, cast and then…"

And of course there are much more. So go back and reread what Russ had posted.
Plus if you are saying that you can't remember not seeing photos up on the site then why is Russ stating why they don't have photos up on the site for the early stuff? Based on your statement he should have said all the photos are up on the site. Alittle common sense there.

And Russ if you go back and reread my first post on this thread all I stated was that it would be hard to go back and take photos of everything and I gave a recommendation of what you should have done. It is not an attack on you or Old Glory but just a suggestion of what would have been nice to have been done. To me it seems that you are getting upset over someone who actually is justifying the reason why you can't go back and take photos.

Marc33594 Supporting Member of TMP20 Aug 2017 6:24 a.m. PST

Hopefully this doesnt overly annoy anyone here and not meant as a criticism but seems to me a rather easy at least partial fix.

Time and again I have seen folks ask here what was contained in so and so's pack #00 or Prussian HQ pack or whatever. Further I have seen folks ask for pictures someone may have of those figures and especially any that showed them in relation to other manufacturers figures or even later lines from the same manufacturer.

No, not all queries will be answered this way but worth a shot and much easier then trying to go back and photograph the whole line, especially since I imagine some figures are rather obscure and rarely asked for.

Andy Old Glory UK22 Aug 2017 3:00 a.m. PST

Here we go from the UK side of the pond as I've been asked the same questions numerous time. Of course I have over 2000 pictures on the OGUK site and still add them but I worked out that- like Russ it would take me about 4 years doing NOTHING else to just photograph every figure in the back catalogue- and I didn't factor in cleaning up and or undercoating and of course OFUS have line that I don't carry as stock. Now over here chaps can and do send me pictures once in a while . If they are of completed units they go in the "Battle Gallery" on the website with a name check and email link if the kind chap requires.
For the first 10-12 years of OGUK there were no websites in that time most of the 25mm ranges still selling today were made(and yes back then they were called 25mm )

Equally I will answer questions if I can but there are some thing I just don't know of the how many umpty gunmen are there in pack ???? especially as in some range there are LOTS of variants- FIW woodland Indians or Dark age Viking are just 2 that spring to mind.

If you are used to the small pack/low variant/high price business model and mindset of some other outfits then there will be times I just can't help won't stop me trying though

Personal logo BrigadeGames Sponsoring Member of TMP22 Aug 2017 3:16 p.m. PST

"Also, there are endless issues that arise that are just unforseen-- just this week we had a $600 USD USD package we had shipped to a customer in Russia marked rejected and returned by customs because of the "density of the package??????" We have sent this fellow many parcels with no problems -- countless hours fixing this with postage costs etc. --- not complaining, just saying ???"

Russ, you tried to ship uranium to Russia ;-)


Old Glory Sponsoring Member of TMP22 Aug 2017 6:38 p.m. PST

Lon, I have had several other dealers get in touch with me after I posted this and they have had the same problem recently with this ? May be a new problem beginning to surface?

Russ Dunaway

Personal logo BrigadeGames Sponsoring Member of TMP26 Aug 2017 11:24 a.m. PST

Russia, Italy and Greece all are very variable. The latter two have theft issues and that I confirmed with the post itself.

I only ship registered mail to these three countries.

Rallynow Supporting Member of TMP28 Aug 2017 8:02 a.m. PST

If you add up all the work, then this task seems insurmountable. But if you just break it down into smaller tasks it may seem more doable. Like one range or part of a range and just plug away at it a little at a time, at least you would get some new pictures on the website.

I would like to know how many figures are in each bag too. It's not just OG. Why are manufactures so reluctant to doing this?
Some have smaller ranges. Would it hurt sales in some way?

nevinsrip Sponsoring Member of TMP30 Aug 2017 1:42 a.m. PST

"Half the figures aren't pictured. So there is a need for 30,000 pictures."

Sorry Doctor X, but it's not close to that. It's half the figures, not half the molds. Of those 60,000 molds how many are Master molds? How any are production molds? How many are duplicates? How many are parts or horses or wheels or artillery? Or any of a hundred other things?
And how many are burned out?

OG packs generally contain 30 figures, with about 10-12 different poses. Which means ONE photograph of the 10-12 poses.

How many of those 60,000 molds are actually cast?

By the way Russ, I agree with you. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

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