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"The Mycenian war chariots ..." Topic


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Paskal Supporting Member of TMP15 Aug 2017 5:35 a.m. PST

Hello everyone

A small note on the Mycenaean war chariots …


- The Mycenaean war chariot nicknamed "Box" is used at the most of 1550 to 1450 av. J.-C …
- The Mycenaean war chariot nicknamed "Quadrant" is used at the most of 1450 to 1375 av. J.-C …
- The Mycenaean war chariot nicknamed "Dual" is used at the most from 1460 to 1200 BC. J.-C …
- The Mycenaean war chariot with four wheels is used at the most of 1500 to 1100 av. J.-C …(And after during the dark times of Greece, but with some modifications. )
- The Mycenaean war chariot nicknamed "Rail" is used at most only from 1300 to 1150 BC. J.-C …(And after during the dark times of Greece, but with some modifications. )

Another strange type of Mycenaean war chariot seems attested on 2 fragment of the Khania krater found in Crete dated about 1250 BC. J.-C …

As you may or may not know, given the approximate dating of the Trojan war, * the late Mycenaean used mainly the 'rail' chariot.

My question is which manufactory sells this type of Mycenaean war chariot in 28 / 35mm ?(except Warlord games beause their models are too small for me)

*Notes on the Trojan War.

As this war was considered among the ancient Greeks as the last event of age mythical age or the first event of the historical period, several dates are given for the Fall of Troy.

They usually come from the genealogies of kings.

Douris of Samos and Timaeus of Tauroménion gives 1344 BC (1344 to 1334 BC for
Douris of Samos? And from 1202 to 1192 BC for the Timaeus of Tauromenion).

Eretes gives from 1300 to 1290 BC BC (or 1301 to 1291 BC).

Herodotus gives from 1280 to 1270 BC (or around 1250 BC).

Dicarque gives from 1222 to 1212 BC.

Hellanicos, Ephorus of Cumae and the Chronicle of Paros give from 1218 to 1208 BC.

Dicaearchus gives 1212 BC.

Hecataeus and Thucydides give from 1210 to 1200 BC.

The parian marble gives 1209 av. J.-C. / 1208 BC.

Maneton and Julian the African give from 1208 to 1198 BC.

Timaeus of Tauroménion gives from 1202 to 1192 BC.

Velleius Paterculus gives from 1200 to 1190 BC.

Eratosthenes, Apollodorus of Athens, Diodorus of Sicily, Castor of Rhodes, Denys of Halicarnassus,
Eusebius of Caesarea and Orose give from 1194 to 1184 BC. (But also 1184/1183 BC for
Eratosthenes and 1193 BC. BC for Dionysius of Halicarnassus.)

Timaeus gives 1193 BC.

Girolamos gives from 1192 to 1182 BC.

Sosibios of Laconia and Eratosthenes give 1183 BC. J.-C. / 1184 BC. BC (but also from 1182 to
1172 BC for Sosibios and from 1194 to 1184 BC. J.-C. for Eratosthenes).

Sosibius (Sosibios of Laconia) gives also from 1182 to 1172 BC.

Artemon of Clazomenes and Democritus give from 1160 to 1150 BC.

Ephorus gives 1135 BC.

As for the exact day, (of the fall of Troy I suppose?) Ephore gives 23/24 Thargelion
(6 or 7 May), Hellanicus 12 Thargelion (26 May), while others gave the 23rd
Sciroforion (July 7th) or the 23rd of Ponamos (October 7th).
.
The glorious and rich city that Homer describes was considered as Trojan VI by many
Authors of the 20th century, destroyed in 1275 BC, probably by an earthquake.

His Disciple Troy VIIa, destroyed by fire at some point during the years 1180 BC. J.-C.,
Long been considered a poorer city, but since the excavation 1988, he became the most likely candidate.

randy51 Supporting Member of TMP15 Aug 2017 7:33 a.m. PST

"My question is which manufactory sells this type of Mycenaean war chariot in 28 / 35mm ?(except Warlord games beause their models are too small for me)"

You're probably already aware of Newline's 28mm Mycenean?:

link

Paskal Supporting Member of TMP15 Aug 2017 10:47 p.m. PST

Sorry I know, No 'rail' chariots with Newline design …

Swampking16 Aug 2017 12:46 a.m. PST

Just curious – couldn't you modify current manufacturers figures by adding a rail down the center of the car?

I'm not sure about 28mm, since I only game 15mm but after looking at the available evidence (there isn't much of it anyway), I'd say you could go with whatever you think works. If no manufacturer makes 'rail' chariots, then you'll have to modify existing figures – like I'm doing wit Mag. Mil. 15mm Ancients by adding boobies and turning them into 'historical' Amazons.

OneHuaiTicket16 Aug 2017 2:03 a.m. PST

IIRC, Eureka was doing rail chariots for their new Bronze Age line, which is excellent. I seem to remember WIP pictures somewhere…

Paskal Supporting Member of TMP16 Aug 2017 10:59 p.m. PST

Indeed OneHuaiTicket,I had just posted this topic that I was told by Eureka that they released a 'Rail' chariot …

Yes Swampking,if it does not convince me, I could modify current manufacturers chariot…

Come In Nighthawk19 Aug 2017 12:28 p.m. PST

Any link to Eureka's "rail" chariot? I had heard it was in the works, but have not seen any images of it on their website, or anywhere else.

colin knight20 Aug 2017 4:13 a.m. PST

There is a photo of the rail chariot on Eureka Facebook page. Looks great.

Paskal Supporting Member of TMP26 Aug 2017 10:25 p.m. PST

I have seen this, I hope it will be as we know they were, otherwise I make them myself …

Scarab Miniatures Ltd Inactive Member30 Aug 2017 1:36 p.m. PST

I can add one of these to the list for our forthcoming range – it certainly would be an excellent addition

(@ Colin – I now have the Egyptian figures back from the mould makers, so they will go into production once I have cleaned up the masters for production moulds)

kind regards

Rob
scarabminiatures.com
warandconquest.co.uk

Paskal Supporting Member of TMP31 Aug 2017 7:05 a.m. PST

Case to follow then?

colin knight01 Sep 2017 8:18 a.m. PST

Rob..look forward to seeing your Egyptian additions. Some Notable/Syrians would be nice at some point too.

Scarab Miniatures Ltd Inactive Member02 Sep 2017 7:34 a.m. PST

@ Colin – yes I am looking forward to getting them into action as well.

@ Breton – replied to your email – thank you

You can see a recent Egyptian vs Mycenaean War & Conquest battle report on the Scarab Facebook page here link

Scroll down past the Roman battles to find it though

cheers

Rob

colin knight03 Sep 2017 12:05 a.m. PST

Typo above. "Notable should read Mitanni/Syrian

Paskal Supporting Member of TMP03 Sep 2017 10:23 p.m. PST

If anyone knows where to find the Redoubt Trojan horse in picture on the GrandManner site, let me know via a personal message, thank you.

Come In Nighthawk23 Sep 2017 6:17 a.m. PST

Has anyone ever bought the GrandManner Trojan Horse -- that is anyone who is still on this forum????? Maybe they would be kind enough to post a foto of their copy of the model? Please?

I did a Google search for "GrandManner Trojan Horse," and I got a "hit." But when I opened the link which was on the GrandManner web page, all I saw was a notice that the image was not available (or not found). Help??

Paskal Supporting Member of TMP23 Sep 2017 7:29 a.m. PST

Anyway Come In Nighthawk the Trojan horse of Redoubt also sold in the past by GrandManner no longer exists because the mold is dead …

Come In Nighthawk23 Sep 2017 12:56 p.m. PST

Merely making an observation -- for those of us looking for "warriors" for games like SAGA, or larger-still, like "Hail Caesar!" Not offering up a criticism of Relic -- at least not until I acquire some of their figures for personal inspection!!! Indeed, on that point, I have been thinking about getting a few of the Relic figures myself, to use as "Leaders" and "Chieftains!"

Paskal Supporting Member of TMP25 Sep 2017 6:51 a.m. PST

Relic figures to use as Iliad hero, me too this is what I do.

Paskal Supporting Member of TMP25 Sep 2017 10:47 p.m. PST

So from about 1350 BC. Some Greek noblemen would have been mounted on chariots which were no longer battle chariots as in the East or in Africa, but transport chariots …

These types of chariots , known as ' railchariots ', had appeared during the 13th century BC. BC and would eventually have replaced the previous types.

They consisted only of a platform and a rail …

These chariots were certainly the result of a major change in the chariots tactics, if not of the military organization in general.

It seems therefore highly probable that their crews would descend to land more easily than the crews of the more ancient chariots types of the Aegean world, and they corresponded to most of the descriptions of the chariots tactics contained in the Iliad.

These models thus probably mark the transition between battle chariots tactics and transport chariots , a gradual process occurring in some states before others and perhaps still incomplete at the time of the Trojan War, which could the meaning of certain confused descriptions existing in the Iliad.

The chariots in the Iliad were therefore not used for massive charges, but simply to carry the heroes to the front line where they fought on foot.

For me it is hard to believe that the chariots were used in this way so soon after the great battle of chariots of Kadesh between Hittites and Egyptians …

Thus an inventory found in the arsenal of Knossos in Crete lists 340 cases of chariots and 1000 pairs of wheels.

These were hardly used to bring the nobility into the front line.

Indeed the ratio of five to six wheels for each case implies that these chariots were intended for a service more severe than that of taxi.

They had to be used for combat.

The insular Bretons also used their chariots as taxis.

But it was at a time when the chariots had become obsolete.

Was this the case at the time of the Trojan War?

Paskal Supporting Member of TMP29 Sep 2017 10:22 p.m. PST

In fact, until recently all the manfactures of figurines (apart from Eureka in Australia) have been mistaken about the types of chariots used at various times by the Mycenaeans, whereas the documentation had existed for a long time …

Come In Nighthawk29 Oct 2017 5:10 a.m. PST

Any fotoz of Eureka's new "rail" chariot?

Paskal Supporting Member of TMP30 Oct 2017 5:40 a.m. PST

No because they expect to have their new Mycenaeans figurines and model references to put them on the market …

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