"General Lee Statue removed?" Topic

Hasn't it every occurred to you Muggins that your screeching, hyperventilating, breast beating, self righteous attacks on America and its heritage are the best recruiting tools for the White Supremicists, American Nazis and White Nationalists"?

You want to enrage people to follow your quest for power. You forget that you might just enrage them to join the other side where before they were merely indifferent.

Americans have a unique talent for "live and let live," "letting sleeping dogs lie" and forgetting the sins of the past" and moving on and trying to build a better life and finding a way forward. It's people like you who want to keep stirring up the mud.

Well you got your wish, and I expect the hate groups will gain even more members by your efforts.

Baranovich is right, all the way.

I have a good gaming buddy who was a world class investigative reporter for USA Today. He retired three years ago. He told me that NO stories are written truthfully. They are all written with an intent to inflame, distort, twist, and write the news to inflame and incite people. To get them angry so they will read the paper. He was told by his editors to forget investigative reporting. No story could be more than 300 words and explanation of detail was unwanted. All they wanted was stories to make people angry. What he called the "Let's you and him fight" stories.

As a former reporter for a major newspaper myself back in the days of the Vietnam War and the race riots, it was no different. Reporters were told by their editors to try and inflame the crowds to violence. People peacefully demonstrating did not make good copy or good pictures. Better to have them firebomb some poor store owner.

That is interesting, Ottoathome. I have noticed that people seem to like to read things that make them angry. It seemed like increasingly news outlets (even "respectable" ones) have been writing more and more inflammatory headlines in order to get people to click on their story by taking advantage of this desire to be outraged. But perhaps it was always so, I just see more examples now because they are shared all over facebook by those who enjoy being outraged.

Otto, I'll ignore the personal attacks and answer your question – just like we don't kowtow to terrorists by doing what they want, we don't get on our knees for white supremacists.

I recognize the need to follow your man and demonize the media, all the tinfoil hat stuff – but you didn't answer the question. If its about honoring the past and all that, how come there aren't statues of slaves?

(its rich to say I'm attacking america, btw, – who is wearing the flag of traitors here?)

why do you think there are almost zero statues honoring slaves / former slaves / freed men and women in the south?"
did they contribute with anything very important or heroic for our society?
i played in first division of Handball plus the National team of my country, i succeed once in eating at once 500 g of Carbonara spaghettis and i had during my life at least 80 women may you please begin a public susbcription to have a statue of me in Central Park?

I also noted that at the right wing demo in Charlottesville there were as many Stars and Stripes flags as Confederate ones.

Does that mean that, as the KKK etc. has hijacked each of these flags, that they both must be outlawed?

These LGBT rainbow flags are also offensive to many people (not to me personally, by the way). Should they too be banned?

Those advocating removal of Confederate imagery should at least be consistent and apply their prejudice across the board. Fair is fair, after all.

..rainbow flags??????….what the hell they have to do with an issue connected with a controversial historical analysis of ACW..?
at the time of ACW the rainbow flag was, probably, only known to be the one of Martin Lutero reformists ..while in modern time i discovered those tatty tattlers only in 1991 when the so called pacifists (traitors) make them waving in many buildings (including churches) to protest vs Allied intervention to free Kuwait,, i thought , at first, they were a kind of Iraki flags
it really seams that vs those inocuos statues a Foreign Legion of enraged idlers has been purposly recruited

You're equivocating support for people who have been historically oppressed with neo nazis and the KKK again. Why do you keep doing that?

ITALWARS, comparing winning an eating contest to being enslaved for your entire life, having your kids sold, building the White House, etc. is… bizarre.

i'm just disempowering this histeria…which count among other traits in my opinion , also a true form of racism…included also in the arguments that you have used…
nothing personal..but i must underline that among intersting informations from you and others there is a true form of racism..which is using slavery, slaves , segregationism..which in fact reached his peak not during the Confederacy but after and under Whashington Govt..i said that you some and othesr uses those dramatic cleavages of history for your own agenda and in a speculative way….the target is only a fight vs those values of part of the Nation (Southern States) not a condemn to any form of racism or defence of civil rights …the statues issue has nothing to do with slavery..can you explain me why i never heard recently and before this year about crowds supporting the legacy of victims of enslavery?….it's a true form of racism using and exploiting the memory of slave opression of 2 century before to support a modern political perverse agenda from a loosing minority
…samething about KKK and similar freaks ..you 're very luck that a few individuals sporting flags with forbidden symbols were among the protesters because otherwise how could have you dared to counter the will of the majority of honest people that do not want to see their traditions destroyed by this Taliban type furia?

Interesting comments Baranovich and Ottoathome.

Ostrowski, I think you are right in questioning where this censorship of statues could end. When I first commented on this thread, it was to say that since the CSA statue issue had become heated, I had heard a news story that there were calls to censor a Captain Cook statue in Sydney because it dared to say he discovered Australia. I questioned (I meant in an ironic way) at the time if that would mean any statues of Columbus in the USA should be removed: yesterday, when I watched a delayed broadcast of US news we get here I saw that removing a statue of Columbus was being considered! It is not appropriate to ban or remove things because of who may associate with those things. The thing itself must be removed or banned because of its own heinous nature, if that can be demonstrated and agreed to by the citizens. I have yet to see anything in this thread (General Lee statue removed) that would justify the removal of any of the CSA statues or monuments let alone ones of R E Lee.
ITALWARS: I would love to see a statue of an average person in the local park, especially if it depicted someone devouring a large bowl of spaghetti. It would put a smile on my face every time I took the children to the park.

The oldest monument to Columbus in the USA was destroyed: link

i can imagine the laughing of the ideologic masters of this criminal histeria …ISIS and ALQead animals and ther iconocalstic furia that destroyed art..to see the sons of rich USA and Europe emulating them with this kind of perverse Sindrome of Stockolm

I'm not really sure what you're saying, italwars, amongst all the hyperbole and the rhetoric.

You didn't answer the question though, why aren't there statues honoring people who were enslaved? Personal anecdotes comparing sports wins to backbreaking servitude don't count.

Muggins you're the master of rethoric!
and you did'nt ask me anything until your last post..so please don't be threatning cause with me it does'nt work!
the answer to your absurd and obscure question could be another question..why should statues be built for this reason?…what do you have to honour..the suffering of some people?…please be serious

i'm sure heirs of eploited slavers would not be happy that you use their drama for the support of a marxist cause which means historically : enslavment, gulags, massacres and persecutions…

sorry..slaves..not slavers

one very last tought…apparently out of topic..
.i'm afraid guys but in less than a a decade if this guided world marxist/relativist /third worldist drift will not cease….we can forget about Osprey's, Military books, model tanks, boardgames and , of course, historical miniatures…maybe just Fantasy games if STASI type police of minds will label them "politically correct" and "respectful of different cultures , sensibility and civil rights"

I'm still not sure how Marxists play into this at all.

Statues are put up to honor those who have been oppressed many times. Certainly a better cause than putting up statues for people who fought to keep them enslaved, no?

but muggins are you joking?
the hammer and sick red flag of genocide is the rallying point in every crowd that is herded vs statues…you know we can see news from USA also in my country :-)

@Italwars- Not sure what your ramblings have to do with the OP, but adding some delusional paranoia about a 'marxist/relativist /third worldist' takeover is the height of tin foil hat fantasy. You may want to come down and join the real world sometime (and that tin foil hat of yours is waaay too tight…).

One thought: The move to remove the statues has been a LOCAL effort; very little outside input. As it should be; LOCAL people making decisions about LOCAL matters. And, IIRC, that has always been a keystone of the conservatives (LOCAL control and all that). Yet when the LOCALS do something that upsets conservatives, the response is to move heaven and earth to remove the issue from local control. Strikes me as a hypocritical stance, don't you know.

To many, especially in the south, those figures are an important part of their cultural heritage. To some other people they are something else. But why go out of your way to attack someone else's culture?

You really don't get it, do you?

Those statues were raised to reinforce a narrative of 'Southern Heritage' that was based on the 'Lost Cause'. A heritage which included such 'wonderful' values as institutional racism, segregation, disfranchisement, etc. And had such 'extremist' organizations as the KKK welcomed and supported (I'm old enough to remember the casual acceptance of the KKK in large areas of the South). And for those born, raised and living under this 'heritage' that weren't lily white, well, they got to be the victims of this 'heritage', a heritage that is just as much theirs.

Thankfully, times have changed. The 'Old South' is dead (or dying, and not fast enough). And decisions (LOCAL decisions) have been made to remove these reminders of a flawed heritage. A heritage based on a lie (the 'Lost Cause' that denies slavery was ever an issue; even in direct contradiction of the secessionists own writings), a 'heritage' of 100+ years of second class (if even that) status (I doubt you've ever seen a 'Whites Only' sign on a public water fountain; I have. Blacks were consigned to a garden hose), a 'heritage' of 'poll taxes' that effectively robbed a whole class of people of their right to vote, and so on and so on.

Some of you 'Lost Causers' have asked why now the effort to remove these leftovers from a dead era. I ask why did it take so long…

Those advocating removal of Confederate imagery should at least be consistent and apply their prejudice across the board. Fair is fair, after all.

Some more kindergarten logic, I see…

Marxism is a failed ideology currently being dragged out to label the views of those who are in favour the removal of the the statues as opposed to those elements with a more extreme view of why they should be retained.

In the same way that everything remotely left of the centre in politics has become "Socialist". Generally a lable applied by those who have no idea what the classical definition is and use it as a condemnation of sometime that doesn't line up with their views.

By these definitions Lincoln would no dobut be a Socialist and going back to the guys who started the whole Country, Thomas Paine would unquestionably be a red hot Marixist!

Surely Legion 4 meant there are no neo-NAZI sympathizers HERE, and that everyone HERE can agree that freedom of speech is good and slavery is bad. Obviously there exist some neo-NAZIs out there who think racism is okay, and some violent protesters who think freedom of speech is bad.

Yes … I certainly did mean that … and I believe [and hope] my post/assumption is correct – "there are no neo-NAZI sympathizers HERE, and that everyone HERE can agree that freedom of speech is good and slavery is bad." …

I've never thought otherwise and again believe and hope I'm correct …

yes but among this company of freaks you cannot avoid to count also the animals that are protesting, insulting, vandalising in all major cities in the name of those supposed to be "civil rights"..being of marxist , relativist , no global , mafia ideology they are certainly not better than the human types that you listed before…

No matter what … you will always have a lunatic fringe of the "lunatic fringe".

"– but you didn't answer the question. If its about honoring the past and all that, how come there aren't statues of slaves?"
Muggins can you also take into account for the sake of a complete analysis of your concern..also other point of views?..including mine..that many if not almost of the people , including me, don't care a bit about slaves, civil rights, emigrants ecc…ecc…a person has to respect the law and do not arm people but cannot be obliged to be engaged with everything and save the world…after having read all those laments i can assure you that 'll whatch in any case to my soccer match tonight and it'll be the only matter of which i'll be concerned with
going into restaurant with you one should feel obliged to eat what you decided?..i don't think so
so if those statues were raised in honour of Confederate Generals it was only because they loved that and they do not care a bit of other things …is it so difficult to understand?

Any confusion about this situation will be easily cleared up by reading Saul Alinsky.

B

i know the thinking of Saul Alinsky….in practice not very different from may insurrectional/coup d'Etat manuals….

Blutarski +1

"that many if not almost of the people , including me, don't care a bit about slaves, civil rights, emigrants ecc"

I guess that concludes it, then.

Statues of slaves? Why not statues of those who have overcome? link

I'm still shocked by the casual equation that says 'people protesting against neo-Nazis are as bad as neo-Nazis'. No, they aren't. Unless you're another neo-Nazi. Not protesting or raising your voice, or telling them it's not right, or turning a blind eye to them, is dangerous, and is exactly what happened in Germany on the early 1930s.

Americans may not know about it, but in the UK< Moseley's British Union of Fascists set about intimidating a largely Jewish area with a march in force, and were themselves confronted by dock workers, unionists, Jews, locals and many others in what became known as 'The Battle of Cable Street' – it destroyed the BUF, who had built their reputation (as did the German SA) on their militaristic approach and street violence, with intimidation of their opponents as their objective. Being soundly thumped, despite the collusion of police, was pretty much the end of the BUF.

"I'm still shocked by the casual equation that says 'people protesting against neo-Nazis are as bad as neo-Nazis'."
i don't know if they are as bad as neonazi..but they are certainly more dangerous and determinated..because those neo nazi are very few and already totally discredited..that meaning among other things controlled and followed by the police..in my opinion they shoud'nt be allowed to exist..in my country somebody waving also a flag with something vaguely belonging to a nazi sign will be immediatly stopped by the police
byt those agressing statues are not equally bad but far more dangerous because the perpetuated more or less the same ideology and they are free to do it also with phisical violence…more than that they emulate the iconoclastic terrorists that destryed art in Middle East…they are today's protagonists of "Nineteen Eighty-Four" by G. Orwell…..and…the only difference from past evil ifdeologies is that sickle and hammer (and subsequent leftist thinking) is still tolearated

I do find it strange that after 150+ years, NOW we want those statues down.

The real question is why they were put up in the first place. What meaning a select group of people choose to imbue a statue with is not a good enough reason to tear down the statues now… what it means to the entire society could be.

I have a great deal of respect for Lee, before, during and after the war. Not what he believed so much as what he did. And I could see erecting statues to honor those acts. He did a great deal to calm the waters after the ACW.

Before and during the ACW, most whites in North American believed that other races were inferior in some respect. It would be stupid to tear down any and all statues of men simply because they were a product of their time. Lincoln believed the Black man was not the white man's equal. He did free them none-to-less and should be honored for that act.

If any statues of people North or South were erected because of that belief, I'd say take the statues down immediately. If there are statues of men being revered for those beliefs by society today regardless of why they were first put up, I'd say take them down.

And it is highly questionable to honor men for attempting to tear the Union apart, regardless of how brave and noble they were as people. That is regardless of--or because of past 'traditions' and such.

However, in this case, I believe that too much importance has been given to their existence and far too much attention given to old statues that have a minimal impact on thinking today, North or South.

We presently have organizations here in the USA very similar to the BUF you describe. They call themselves AntiFa and BLM. We even had such back in the 60s, 70s and 80s – Students for a Democratic Society, the Youth International Party, the Weather Underground, for example.

All basically "rent a riot" organizations. Does anyone REALLY believe these are sudden spontaneous outbursts of popular moral indignation? Read David Horowitz or any of the other reformed New Left Red Diaper Babies for an appreciation of how the scam is really being played out and why.

B

AntiFa, BLM "Students for Democratic"…i thought that that rubish was peculiar to Europe…here they are the armed spearhead of Left/Democratic parties (disguised marxist parties), the more or less legal heirs of Red Brigades, Bader Meinhof, Rote Armee Fraktion ecc…now called anti-fascists (weird that de facto fascists want to fight imaginary fascists but with fascists methods), Pacifists, anti-racists, no globals, environmental movements…in practice violent rioters when liberals are in power..armed political militia when the left is in power….
i'm realising just now that also in USA, during this absurd fight vs values and culture (removing satues), do you have same anti-democratic virus

Hmmmm, Blutarski, are you actually trying to suggest that we have socialists protesting socialists? Because once again, that's how you're trying to define Nazis.

Are the Neo-Nazis and Klan now fans of Alinsky too? So the "socialist" Neo-Nazis and the Klan are working together? And the socialist "fascists" of the non-existant "alt-left" are protesting against them?

If that's confusing, its because your current assertions are nonsensical. Moreover, they're irrelevant. Couldn't you find some nice alt-right board to post that drivel?

Italwars, here's a nice quote:

"i'm realising just now that also in USA, during this absurd fight vs values and culture (removing satues), do you have same anti-democratic virus"

Italwars, that's not something you're realizing just now, that's something you've been itching to say. I'm curious, during the eight years of the "Obama administration," when did those "anti-democratic" armed militia pop up? Are you referring to the armed militia that were backing up the Neo-Nazis at Charlottesburg?

Since the armed militia back Neo-Nazis (Whom Blutarski apparently thinks are socialists), are the armed militia also socialists? Do the milita follow Saul Alinsky, too?

The greatest threat to the world right now is the rise of actual fascism, often religious. In America, this is taking the form of the alt-right. I don't appreciate having alt-right ideas spread here as propaganda. The subject is Confederate memorials.

Bill, I saw this coming, and tried to warn you. Are we an alt-right conspiracy forum now?

i do not know , wulgar, what Alt-Right does it means…but the reasoning we read here is totally in line with the topic of ACE statues removed (besieged)…probably you could undestand from many ansers, all over the country..including here, that time of nazi/comunist/socialsit/fascist trheats do not work anymore…i agree with you with the fact taht we are asisting in a revamping of violence to establish a sort of Dicature…those tryning to destroy art, statues with childish excuses of supposed anti-slavery action are the spearhead of this dictatorial idea…i agree totally with Blutarsky even if he expressed his ideas, contrary to others, in a very moderate and elegant way..
yes i agree this forum is becoming , sometimes, a free arena of angried leftist agents provocateurs

Um, Bill? Are you reading this? Really?

"Italwars, that's not something you're realizing just now, that's something you've been itching to say. I'm curious, during the eight years of the "Obama administration," when did those "anti-democratic" armed militia pop up? Are you referring to the armed militia that were backing up the Neo-Nazis at Charlottesburg?"

i'll not, in any case, push the botton ..because i read with interest what Wulgar told us..i don not agree with him but i recognice his good will…BUT for the same kind of posting..mentioning last US administarion..the equally extremely well written and explained osting from OTTo has caused him to be DH! just my thought!

Wulfgar – We've been down this tired old road before. It is a categorical, indisputable, undeniable historically documented fact that the "Nazis" were a socialist political movement. If Ernst Roehm (leader of the pre-war Nazi SA) were to visit AntiFa headquarters today, he would be perfectly familiar and comfortable with its modus operandi and goals because the current generation of radical American leftists is sadly following exactly in his footsteps.

B

Yeah this thread is going so far down the tinfoil hat-alt_right-infowars-breitbart rabbit hole – its time to nuke it.

No, Charlie 12, obviously YOU don't get it. There are a lot of confederate monuments that were raised for a lot of reasons. But that also doesn't determine what they mean to people today, of which you're clueless. You'd rather just believe what you choose to believe because it justifies you imposing your own views on other people.

I'm still shocked by the casual equation that says 'people protesting against neo-Nazis are as bad as neo-Nazis'. No, they aren't. Unless you're another neo-Nazi. Not protesting or raising your voice, or telling them it's not right, or turning a blind eye to them, is dangerous, and is exactly what happened in Germany on the early 1930s.

Have you heard of a single person anywhere make the claim that anyone protesting NAZIs are as bad as NAZIs? I think you're making that up. Antifa certainly is as bad, maybe even worse. But I don't think anyone is condemning the average peaceful protesters who aren't part of a violent hate group. Aside from some in the media characterizing a free speech rally and an anti-marxist rally as "controversial" and "far right".

Also, that isn't at all what happened in Germany in the 30s. There were fascist and anti fascist "gangs" fighting in the streets. And we see how that turned out.

Though, honestly, none of this has anything to do with the topic of Confederate monuments. It doesn't matter if a handful of lunatic neo-NAZIs want the statues up or antif morons want them down, that doesn't invalidate any reasonable person's opinion. And, as I pointed out earlier, a poll shows 62% want the statues up, and they aren't all neo-NAZIs.

"Uh oh, I can't make people agree with me so better stop letting them talk."

As an afterthought, I just thought I'd mention that the Berkeley "Free Speech Movement" is apparently in the process of being cancelled by AntiFa, much to the dismay of Mario Savio.

How things change in fifty years …..

B

the moovie "Fahrenheit 451" by F. Truffault is a good paradigma of the current situation..just substitute books with statues

But Albino Squirrel please…we can stop talk..at least me..but i did'nt hear your voie when some few where saying horrible things Vs Souther States, Old South..and , in practice, everything was against their dogmas

Nobody is going to make any of you understand the facts – of which have been posted dozens of times now – and it'll just be more ranting and raving about BLM, ANTIFA, and marxists. It'll probably hit SJWs and virtue signalling at some point. The thread has hit peak tinfoil hat.

"We've been down this tired old road before. It is a categorical, indisputable, undeniable historically documented fact that the "Nazis" were a socialist political movement."

blutarsky we have also to consider that marxism/left thinking is not a clear political ideology..it is, as history teached us, a multi mafia systhem to drain resources…and if a branche of this systhem is too much individualistic it clashed with some other ones…franky i see current leftist movments (including the thugs agressing statues) more an Al Capone type forum of organisations than anything else..
sorry to be , slightly , out of topics but here i also read absurd things like anti-slavery and civil rights battle ideologically conneceted with angry crowds besieging statues..and reality has shown the opposite

Antifa are the same young anarchists and aging hippies that broke shop windows in Portland, Oregon the night President Trump was elected. They don't really have an ideology other than loving to break things. Arrest them all. Don't care.

During the Women's March in Portland last Fall, the greatest worry from the marchers was that the anarchists were going to show up. Fortunately, they were a non-factor that day.

I still think its pretty funny that Blutarski is going to pretend that socialists are fighting socialists fighting socialists fighting socialists. Its laughable, in fact.

Italwars, thank you for the kind words in your last post.

I won't be posting on this thread again. I'd prefer to see my fellow TMP members without politics.

wulfgar wrote –
"I still think its pretty funny that Blutarski is going to pretend that socialists are fighting socialists fighting socialists fighting socialists. Its laughable, in fact."

With all due respect, that is your own artificially created meme, not mine.

B

To clarify, when I said "Uh oh, I can't make people agree with me so better stop letting them talk.", that was me restating what it sounds like certainly other people here were saying. I probably shouldn't have been so snarky, but that's the impression I was getting.