"General Lee Statue removed?" Topic

Antifa activities have been classified by the Department of Homeland Security as domestic terrorism.

So have armed militia, the Klan, and other white nationalist organizations, USAFpilot.

How many people died in Oklahoma City? How many were lynched by the Klan? How many have been murdered by white nationalist organizations?

I don't like Antifa, but I do not have to ask how many they have killed, because the answer, to the best of my knowledge, is none.

As Khusrau said, you're trying to defend the indefensible.

As Khusrau said, you're trying to defend the indefensible.

No I'm not. I'm not defending anyone. I don't like any of those groups; including antifa.

something that had not been explained here is …why those embarassing people are allowed not only to protest (which also if being ridicoulous not only because it's quite difficult to understand properly against what are they protesting.but that idlers favourite passtime cannot be forbidden) but in the quasi totality of cases they are also allowed to to achieve their real and illegal goal which is to commit property crimes?

You've actually stated concerns about armed leftist militia in the US. Too funny. The only armed militia claiming to want to overthrow the government in the US are from the alt-right (Steve Bannon's words).

Antifa are a bunch of anarchists and aging hippies looking for an excuse to break things. No one likes them. They're an embarrassment.

the real mistery frankly is why talk about those groups (WN and WS and many others previously unknown to me) when referring to angry crowd of bizzare people that, unsupported by nobody except other strange and minoritarian people, attack in the name of nothing some pieces of bronze….

Italwars, If "WN and WS" are unknown to you, you might want do some research on American history and politics. Start with the Klan.

again again you're trying to cheat us
what have to do some minority and folcloristic groups named Klan, NN ecc…with such a problem if:
- the people protesting are committing crimes
- the majority of the Nation is against this folly including Afro- Americans that you and others want against their will (and against their individual inteligence) draw in your diatribe

my knowledge of US Politics is certainly unsufficient but it's sufficient to understand that that your trying to sell us is, for certain aspects , laughable.

Italwars, the people who were protesting in Charlottesville were the Neo-Nazis, the Klan, white supremacists, and armed alt-right militia. You're trying to blame the counter-protesters who were standing up to the white supremacists.

One of those counter-protester's, Heather Heyer, was a legal clerk who was murdered when a Neo-Nazi drove his car, at high speed, into a crowd of people who were merely standing in the street at the time. She was murdered by the guys you're defending.

The issue that brought all of this on was the murder of nine black people by a white supremacist for the high crime of being black. He did so at a Bible study after he was finished praying with them.

The armed militias which you complain about are entirely alt-right. There isn't a single leftist armed militia in the country. If you can find one let me know.

there is no way to understand each other…
i'm not defending murderers..of course ..i was sad knowing about those victims..more of that i do not side with Nazis or similar groups..and i'm also amazed that they exist..as i told in another posting in my country people waving flags that remind nazism would'nt have been free to parade and also to exist…BUT is not what we are talking..the title was about the satues and the criminals that want to destroy them..

we were talking about something that shoud have nothing to do with extremists right wing groups…otherwise more that 60% of US citizen are potential candidates for KKK?

Italwars, there is a good historical reason for people to be outraged about white supremacists marching in the streets of Charlottesville with armed alt-right militias at their back while chanting, "Jews will not replace us."

Re-read your own posts. You have been, in point of documented fact, been supporting white supremacy while attacking the people who opposed it.

You want to discuss the meaning of the statues? Great. However, you might want to actually read the links that were provided regarding the history and purpose of those statues.

At this point in American history, the passions on this topic run pretty high. Don't be surprised when people snap back. . . which I why I continue to suggest to the editors that this is a pretty inappropriate topic for a hobby site.

Italwars, there are plenty of American news sites with video demonstrating what happened in Charlottesville and Charleston. That's how things are here, and its at the root of the controversy.

White nationalists here are emboldened by something I didn't believe I'd ever see, an American president who refuses to condemn white supremacists, and enjoys their support. That is the basis of the argument for those you're agreeing with here.

I don't think you're a bad person, Italwars. I just think you don;t understand the real issue, or why people are so upset about it. Neo-Nazi's march for one reason: to stir things up.

it coul be true..but they are very few i suppose…they are unwillingly marching..i said unwillingly because they probably have therir own agenda…but they march for a right cause…but that is not the main problem…you're perfectly aware that common people, neutral people and, at least in my country, people of a certain conservative/nationalist culture (like me for example) do not like to go on the street protesting..they are a silent majority…read all the equilibrate and very polite postings by USAF Pilot…maybe.it is one of them..
on the other hand leftist activist have the conquest of the street as their main goal and are very well organised..may that is a reason why you and the media identify (and it's not a very clear position) the only opposition to this iconoclastic folly with the Neo Nazi, KKK ecc….
BUT the topic was about why they want to destroy statues..not why they want to opposite those who destroy satues

White nationalists here are emboldened by something I didn't believe I'd ever see, an American president who refuses to condemn white supremacists, and enjoys their support. That is the basis of the argument for those you're agreeing with here."

i can reply easily to that..and i'm not be alone…but be honest please..poor OTTO for saying the truth on this line..has been DH…so i can answewr you and feel yourself lucky if you'll be, as i hope because i'm for the absolute freedom, spared to be sent find your bowl for dinner in the Doghouse :-)

Poor Otto? Lol. Otto can take care of himself, and he's never been one to shy away from insulting anyone else. I had to laugh when you said he had courage.

Let me make something clear to you, Italwars: The Neo-Nazis, the white supremacists, and the armed militia announced a march in order to provoke a clash and to intimidate those who disagree with them. They got what they wanted, and the president supported them. David Duke told us so. You do know David Duke?

"Unwilling" marchers? You have GOT to be kidding. But then, the alt-right has always been about claiming victimhood for themselves. Its WHY they exist. To blame others for their failures and poor decisions. I have zero sympathy for those "poor" white nationalists.

while waiting for your predictable posting i surfed the web to know someting about those Alt-Right; Supremacists…ecc..i saw some nerds that , except themselves, do not represent anything..their chief a boy with a ridicoulous hat and pale unhealthy face seem to be their leader…and it's job and work is not of an intellectual type like Zygmunt Bauman, E Lutwak or Ernst Nolte..(i was frankly expecting as leaders of US New Right this kind of intellectual that i estimated) but a "webmaster"…so a nerd behind a PC….
So Wulfgar do you think those people really represent the opposition to relativism, destroying of middle class, destruction of democracy, supression of votes?….in fact do you really think that with quite a few people , including me that i'm a foreigner, shocked by this campaign vs statues …simillar to those carried out by ISIS and Talibans..we are all delegating our way of thinking and values to less than 100 nerds lead by a boy with pale face and psycho type eyes that have created this obscure Alt Right movement …
no supremacist drive at all..those are your excuses or maybe your ghosts..the opposition to the left fury is made by many people that know very well their immaculate politically correct opponent..

last thinking…if this thread is shameful according to you..and if , again according you, i have to wait in oder to congratulate myself with someboy..i immediatly end it..no more postings from me…
thnans for your attention

an American president who refuses to condemn white supremacists

That statement is simply untrue. President Trump has condemned these groups.

Yes, he did, and then famously recanted. That's why so many people resigned from his administration in the days that followed.

I remember the look of weariness and frustration on General Kelly's face, and I remember the sheer delight from David Duke. Our president has emboldened white nationalists. They believe that he's their man.

Yes, he did

As a point of logic, you just admitted your previous statement was false.

Wonder if the English will pull down Nelsons column in London as apparently he favoured Slavery ? Bet you they don't.

link

Interesting article here. Appears they do not want a monument to Union soldiers. Speaking of which where are the monuments to southern's who fought for the union? Ex slaves who won their freedom by fighting for the union?

So Wulfgar you still believe the Antifa are blameless after assaulting the trump supporters on Berkley who were NOT white Supremicists, Nazis, or KKK members, and they assaulted these trump supporters MASKED and with weapons like clubs, sticks and hatchets.

It is ANTIFA who are the Nazis, the fascists, the thugs and the hooligans and now we see the President's words were right in the first place. The two groups are equivalent, and thugs. There is blame on both sides.

I realize it was Berkeley but they assaulted their fellow students who asserted an opinion different from what they believed, therefore, of course, they had to be silenced and killed. The trump supporters were peaceful, the Antifa were not.

So you are a person who believes that anything you don't like should be silenced.

Remnember the Nazis, and white supremicists had a permit to do their demonstration and were completely peaceful until the antifa people showed up with weapons and arms and attacked. They did not have a permit, were a violent mob, and violence ensued. They got what they came for.

Remnember the Nazis, and white supremicists had a permit to do their demonstration and were completely peaceful until the antifa people showed up with weapons and arms and attacked.

These are white supremacists – there are hundreds of photos of them online, with confederate flags, swastikas, and weapons and arms:

Are you saying they didn't show up with weapons and arms?

Are you going to say they didn't attack?

The scaremongering and crying about ANTIFA used by those defending thse groups is all a bit strange. Has ANTIFA killed anyone yet ?

Reminds me of Millwall fans from my time in London. When they arrive with weapons, protection and looking for a fightthen only the most loyal will somehow defend it all as free speech and legal protest.

Im happy to discuss this on twitter/Facebook, but I really don't like seeing this discussion on TMP. I'd like to see the Moderator end this thread. Thank you.

I'm happy to see the discussion continue but would hope that it would return to topic. Once the thread went away from the main topic you started to see a lot of people end up in the DG.

Sobieski

Without the likes of Rhodes, there wouldn't have been a South Africa in the first place.

Genuine question for those who support the removal of the statues of Southern Generals etc.

What are your thoughts on the potential removal of statues of those like (eg) Custer who fought in the Plains Wars? As these were fought to 'oppress the Native Americans' / 'blatant land grabs against non-whites' (or however one wants to spin it), are they also likely to start coming under pressure to be removed?

It really is a slippery slope/big can of worms. As where is the line to be drawn. There has been talk about removing statues, changing names of schools, etc., of Washington and Jefferson, etc. Even a Christopher Columbus statue(s) have been removed. Regardless … my people didn't get to the USA as I said, until @ the 1900s. So I really don't have any real "skin" in this game. So to speak …

It just seems like there is no "good" or "right" answer. No matter what happens, some will not like the outcome ….

LET THIS THREAD DIE!!!!!!!

Unfortunately GreenLeader, a read of this whole thread will show that most of those who support the removal of the statues of the Southern Generals seem to have one general reason for their removal.
Their reason seems to be that if a group that they dislike [not necessarily without good reason] supports the statues remaining then that is the reason to remove, vandalise or destroy the statues. Given that that appears to be their main reason, I see no reason why they would oppose the removal of any other statues if a group they dislike supports their retention.

Legion 4

Yes, that is my fear: while I do not think that the cause of 'the South' was anything to be admired, I do not like the notion of statues being torn down by mobs acting on the (usually ill-informed) whims and caprices of the moment. From a British perspective, this could see statues of the likes of Nelson, Churchill, Cromwell, Slim etc coming under attack in the future.

I had hoped that this phenomena was limited to South Africa (where I live), so sad to see that it occurs elsewhere.

Quaama

Yes – the worst thing that could have happened was for a gaggle of 'White Power' lunatics to march in defence of the statues; suddenly, anyone else voicing support for keeping the statues in place can be lazily dismissed as a Nazi.

Yes – the worst thing that could have happened was for a gaggle of 'White Power' lunatics to march in defence of the statues; suddenly, anyone else voicing support for keeping the statues in place can be lazily dismissed as a Nazi.

We English have an old saying "A man is known by the company he keeps."

Not seeing a lot of condemnation of armed mobs of "White Power" types here. Because the logical conclusion that scenario is rather unfortunate.

Sorry old boy, but I thought that local government in Charlottesville and another of local authorities have voted to remove the statues. Or are you suggesting that these elections were somehow invalid? Like the "wrong type" of people being in the electorate or "uninformed" people being able to vote?

Nothing to be sorry about: if they have voted for it, then fair enough – doesn't mean I have to agree it is the right thing to do.

For the record, and in case it is not abundantly obvious, I unreservedly condemn any nut-case who preaches white power and walks along with a Nazi flag or such like. Hope that is clear.

Any thoughts on statues of Custer etc as I posted earlier?

Any thoughts on statues of Custer etc as I posted earlier?

As always it's a matter of context. Not seen a huge number of statues of Custer.

My understanding is that there were two main periods for erecting Confederate monuments at the beginning of the 20thC in the wake of the Plessy v. Ferguson (1896) which legalised apartheid in the US and in the 1950s with the rise of the Civil Rights movement. This would imply that there is a degree triumphalism in the placement of the statues. I understand that the main opposition seems to be where the statues have been government buildings or in public parks. This would imply governmental support for Confederate Cause.

We have few statues for leaders of the Parliamentarian forces from our civil war: Cromwell stands outside the Palace of Westminster (Houses of Parliament). There is the Statue of John Hampden in Aylesbury. His reputation was rather redeemed during The Glorious Revolution of 1688, because of his insistence of the principle that a sovereign or government can only rule with the will of the people.

The only area of the United Kingdom where emotions seem to be as strong as those in the southern United States is in Northern Ireland. That conflict has strong elements of tribalism that also seem present in the South.

We're not immune to the removal of statues in the UK, I grew up near Bristol in the South West of England, there has been calls to remove statues and rename buildings of Edward Colston. He was a note philanthropist but made his money in the three handed trade.

I think it best in any conversation like this, to limit yourself to your own opinions and your own reasoning for them. If most of your posts are about what you've decided to believe someone else's reasoning is, even though they have given completely different reasoning, you are being counter-productive.

If you're truly saying that you are against a position because some bad people hold that position, then fine. I think that's a rather preposterous point of view, as that would require you to be against pretty much everything. But fine, not everyone is logical.

But it seems like what some keep doing is implying that anyone against removing statues must have a racist reason for having that opinion, and that is ridiculous.

I find parts of this thread very interesting, as I enjoy reading different opinions and the reasoning behind them. I don't so much enjoy the pointless desire to change other people's opinions (and the anger that follows the failure to do so). I also don't enjoy seeing people put words in other's mouths and give what they've decided is the other side's reasoning, instead of letting them speak for themselves and take them at their word.

Not sure if it has anything to do with how many statues of Custer there are – surely you can see that the cause he (and others) fought for in the Plains Wars will be considered offensive to some… and it seems that these days, as long as someone pretends to be 'offended' by something / anything, then all logic goes out of the window.
So, simple question – do you support removing any and all statues of Custer?

Would a statue of Osama Bin Laden outside the capitol building offend you?

Albino Squirrel

Yup: excellent points. It would be a inane as saying: 'some of the White Power marchers had breakfast in McDonalds before the march, therefore anyone else who eats at McDonalds must ergo be a Nazi'.

muggins

I don't go in for the current fad of virtue signalling on social media by pretending to be offended by things. If there was some sort of rational reason why there would have been a statue of OBL there for a few decades / a century, then I wouldn't support pulling it down.

Please answer the question on Custer?

So you're cool with OBL statues supported by the government – what else can we put up? A statue of Colin Kaepernick burning a flag in front of the Washington monument, perhaps add President Barack Obama to Rushmore? I'll send you the petition.

muggins

Who is talking about putting statues up? The debate is about pulling down statues of relevant American historical figures which have been there for decades. If the best straw man you can dream up is to try and compare this to the erection of a statue of OBL, I think you are admitting you have lost the argument.

I also note you avoid the question on Custer. Any reason why?

Because they're not related to the discussion at hand. If your best point of discussion is "What about ___________. Are you offended, SNOWFLAKE? <hahahahahaha>" then the thread should truly be nuked.

What if someone answers your super clever question about Custer? Who is next? Can we delve into the facts about Custer like the facts we've already settled on for the actual topic at hand – those being that the statues were erected to glorify a lost cause myth and subjugate a race of people? If you're able to agree on the facts then we can continue.

OK – so you are unwilling to answer the question. Tells me a lot.

You will note, however, that I answered your truly straw man and utterly irrelevent question about the erection of a statue of OBL.

No wonder you are so desperate for the thread to be nuked.

Its 11 pages of the same circular reasoning, juvenile hypothetical questions that have nothing to do with the topic (see above), ignoring of facts, and hilarious strawmen. It makes the forum look bad. I don't know how many posts were dedicate to paranoid conspiracy theories about marxism and antifa, but if I were a new ACW interested person I'd run away as quickly as possible.

Can you provide a list of the hypothetical questions you're gonna ask so people can just check yes or no? It would save a lot of time.

How is asking if you also support the pulling down of other statues of American military leaders who are offensive to some sections of modern-day America irrelevant?

You really need to take a deep breath and try to debate this rationally.

Legion 4

Yes, that is my fear: while I do not think that the cause of 'the South' was anything to be admired, I do not like the notion of statues being torn down by mobs acting on the (usually ill-informed) whims and caprices of the moment.

Yes I agree … where do we draw the line ?

Only CSA leaders, troops, politicians, etc. ?

The US Founding Father's who were slave owners ? And there were many.

Custer or any US Officer or soldier who fought in the Indian Wars ? Lincoln fought in the Blackhawk War. Against Indians, as did Daniel Boone. What about Davy Crocket ? Or Kit Carson ?

Where does it end ?

really need to take a deep breath and try to debate this rationally.

I agree totally.