"General Lee Statue removed?" Topic

I read the news with surprise … why do they remove the statues …?

Are not they part of Virginia History?…

Amicalement
Armand

Tango,

If you want to know more about this, please PM me.

Anything else on this subject is really going to end up with a nuked thread and possibly some folks in the DH.

Again, I find myself in support of Murph (bro, we really should live in the same city :)).

Tango, I'm not an American but I can tell you this is a REALLY sensitive issue to those with a heritage on EITHER side of the Mason-Dixon line. I've just spent Sunday afternoon here in eastern Australia explaining to my teenagers what the news headlines out of Charlottesville actually mean and the complexity of issues and multiple points of view that come together on this.

This issue is NOT as simple as it is being portrayed by various news outlets who have never studied history.

PM Murph and let him explain – lets not venture down this path too far in this public place, here there be dragons

Oooh, the briar patch beckons! Who's gonna asked to be thrown in it?

I would understand to pull out the statues of some recognized racists, but Lee? He was not the worst of the lot, by far. Actually, quite the opposite. He was probably less racist than Sherman, for instance.

Murphy's right This is not to be discussed here and now.

Happening in the UK too. Recently there have been calls to remove statues of Cecil Rhodes and Edward Colston.

Old, dead, white dudes are in the sights it seems.

Yes, you have some white supremacist movements deciding this would be the proper excuse to hold a rally. Being up close and personal to quite a few of them, I can safely say they are a miserable lot. Completely separate, I probably have a different view on the statues as others (I don't believe the leaders of a secession movement should have ever had to statues to begin with). Feel free to PM me with your email if you wish to discuss.

Some things are hard to fathom from a distance. I guess this is one of them. I don't need to have it explained to me, not now anyway.

Both sides are right and both sides are wrong. The only one to win out of this is the media.

JMcCarroll got that right. Mikasa too sadly, though I'd hardly call these leftists progressive.

They want to remove a statue of Robert E. Lee in Virginia? It might as well be a statue of Jesus Christ.

It was a mistake to give the rebels statues or any kind of honor whatsoever. The Confederates turned their back on their country and the Officers turned their back on their country and their oath to uphold and defend the Constitution of the United States. The confederates should never of been honored in any fashion whatsoever. They all fought against their country and fought for the Union to be destroyed, and fought to keep slavery alive, and that goes for Lee as well.

I'll second Irish Marine, I doubt you'll find a statue to Guy Fawkes in England why should we have them for Lee?

I don't know mate, you'll find lots of statues of Guy Fawkes every 5th of November, on top of bonfires when we burn the traitorous dog.

We're a little light on Benedict Arnold statues, but the secessionists--rebels, not traitors--have had their statues and even holidays, and been allowed to take pride in their ancestors--as long as it was understood that we are now all Americans together, and they fight in our wars. It worked out pretty well for some time.

Russia, of course, took a very different line with Ukrainian secessionists, as England and later Great Britain have done with Irish nationalists. How's that been working out for them?

Word of warning, guys: don't make people choose between pride in their ancestors and loyalty to what you believe is their country. You may not like their choice.

Yes… this topic is a massive dog housing or worse waiting to happen … I agree with Murph, if there is any question or doubt about this topic, PM him …

Yup this is definitely Dawghouse bait..I intend to be quiet

What's wrong--things slow down on the Fez? All the anthills already kicked over?

+3 Irish Marine

"Word of warning, guys: don't make people choose between pride in their ancestors and loyalty to what you believe is their country. You may not like their choice."

Better to know their choice up front and get it all out in the open so as to make an informed decision on how to interact with them.

Well, Irish Marine, you better take down the statues of the traitor George Washington as well. And the double traitor Sam Houston. And that goes for you too Winston.

Nsolomon99: "lets not venture down this path too far in this public place, here there be dragons"

So true! And so sad too.

We live in the Land of the Free but are relegated to whispering behind closed doors, for fear of being misconstrued, vilified or treated as some sort of supremacist by a handful of loud teeny tiny dragons.

Soon they'll go after anyone that buys figures of Confederate soldiers, and the ACW Discussion Board will be about Wargames with nothing but Blues fighting each other on the table.

Where's George when we need him?

Dan

I ain't sayin nuthin.

Very touchy subject here don't mean to offend anyone. Lee FOR ME is an iconic American figure a great general some would say military genius, son of light horse Harry Lee a fore father of the American nation.
Talking of which did George Washington not keep slaves on his plantation. So is the Washington bridge going to be renamed or torn down. I can understand the controversy surrounding similar issues in Memphis namely with regards to the Nathan Bedford Forrest statue. Even here things are not clear cut there is so much myth surrounding Forrest the truth has been distorted and twisted to suit one side or the other. This feeds the fuel of the PC brigade on one side and the fascists on the other side. I'm sure General Lee is turning in his grave. So where does it all end what about those on the union side that slaughtered the native Americans in the West? For me leave General Lees statue where it is whether people like it or not he is a major figure in the history of the U.S.and cant be white washed from history. To the PC brigade wise up and get a life. To the fascists and racists crawl back into the hole you came from. To General Robert E Lee rest in peace sir.

It's part of a plot to destroy everything we believe in until the only thing you can believe is what "they" want us to believe. That's the ubiquitous "they", not a specific "they", because it's a conspiracy.

They've already removed the Lee Navy WW2 poster that I had a link to on the Virginia gov website archive. That was fast. Wow.

Dan
PS. Here is what that poster looks like (linked from a different source):

Who did Washington betray? It certainly wasn't America.

Irish Marine,

I don't think fighting against D.C. is the reason being used by any of those who want to erase all signs of the Confederacy.

Opening old wounds*, deepening divides and re-writing the past is the real reason, instead of moving forward despite our different origins and histories.

I wonder what's next. Digging up the graves of each other's ancestors and desecrating their remains? Will that make the masterminds behind this finally happy? Because dissin' each other's Momma has never solved any arguments that I'm aware of.

Dan
* Mao, Castro and many others tried reopening these same old ACW wounds among the American people back in the late 60s and the 70s. I think their goals were simply way too obvious to succeed back then.
link

Washington won. Lee lost.
That clarifies "treason".

As for dead offended people turning in their graves, that seems like a good renewable power source to hook a turbine up to.

How did we allow modern debate devolve down to 'I'm right and anyone who disagrees is evil?' It seems that both side is any issue feel that 'Because I am right, you aren't allowed to consider otherwise.'

There's probably a reasonable debate to be had here, but not in today's all or nothing environment.

Well the Twittersphere makes it obvious that some people see the CSA as evil because of it's links to slavery, and Lee is therefore guilty by association. As a neutral Englishman I do not agree with that sentiment, anymore than I'd support the removal of a statue of Marshall Ney for supporting the French revolution.
So I presume that once all the evil CSA statues have come down, the same people demanding their removal will be targeting statues of other slave owners (Washington, Jefferson, Julius Caesar).
Some people always need a cause to fight. The protest often being more important than the outcome

@TGerritsen – your comment should be framed and hung inside every classroom

Mikasa,

Yours should be framed also.

"So I presume that once all the evil CSA statues have come down, the same people demanding their removal will be targeting statues of other slave owners (Washington, Jefferson, Julius Caesar)."*

You are absolutely right. It won't stop here. This step will only make things worse.

Dan
* Hmm. Just wondering, if Cleopatra and the ancient, medieval and later "African" rulers had tons of slaves, should their statues and memorials be taken down too? Or does it not work that way?

The people here (of whom I think I can count myself one) that have a deeper understanding of the American Civil War are missing the point about what these statues have come to represent. The real tragedy is that the history of this period has been co-opted – for a very long time – by racists and homegrown fascists. The evidence for that has been plain to see for decades, and has now come into even more appalling light. If you want to rehabilitate southern history, those are the people you need to be fighting, and in a very visible way. Your rage is misplaced.

CATenWolde: "The real tragedy is that the history of this period has been co-opted – for a very long time – by racists and homegrown fascists."

But this move was not meant as an attack against the extremists. It is clearly meant to stir up and divide those who were middle of the road and who are trying not to make everything into a racial issue, which is what the masterminds of this move are accomplishing.

That's because neither of the extremes* wants there to be people who leave the past in the past, and who just want to move forward without constantly pulling on semi healed scabs.

Dan
* And I mean the supremacists on both sides of this issue because, as we keep seeing in these protests, racism clearly doesn't afflict just one side.

I could care less about any of today's debates on the matter, my opinion mirrors Irish Marine's. I've felt this way long before this was the debate dujour; its about the fact there are statues in the center of US cities that honor secessionist leaders. Feel so strong about a statue of Lee in your city park, how about we put a statue of Sherman there instead? Its that and only that for me. They fought a war against the federal government, a war that my ancestors fought to maintain.

That clarifies "treason".

Lee was pardoned so we forgave him for all that stuff.

I'm happy to accept Lee fought out of loyalty to Virginia and the slaves held by him were freed in December 1862.

However, that does not alter the fact that by taking up arms he and the Army he commanded supported the aims and objectives of a confederation of States who's intent was the continuation of Slavery and the rejection of all attempts to halt its expansion, in the continental United States.

I think it goes beyond the slavery issue, but slavery was a huge component of it. The Confederacy and the old South it grew from was essentially an aristocratic oligarchy that cynically manipulated the people the plantation system kept in poverty into defending it against their own best interests. Also into viewing the victims of the slavery as sub-human chattel. This has poisoned politics and race relations to this day, and has been deliberately kept alive by people, again very cynically, by people using 'heritage' as a political weapon.

We also see an echo of it in the modern immigration debate among others. I mean who are people taught to believe are the problem? Immigrants or the businesses that go out of their way to hire them and then fund the politicians and pundits that demonize immigrants? There's a debate to be had around immigration, but it's been tainted by the same kind of politics the Confederacy exemplified.

I don't think anyone is trying to erase history. I do think the people trying to take down confederate monuments are doing so because we shouldn't be celebrating what the leaders of the Confederacy did for their own selfish reasons. And that's not even talking about what the Confederate legacy has been co-opted by, as was evidenced by the events of this weekend.

Our Civil War was not heroic or about freedom from oppression, it was a tragedy brought about by greed and fear mongering and needs to be remembered as such. If this really is about heritage, then maybe the defenders of such need to see how they can meet others half-way. Monuments to courage and loss of life and how these things are missused, and not trying to make out the Confederacy as a victim.

Hmm, looking into it more now it seems Lee didn't want there to be monuments to the war because of the division it would cause. Or even commemorating battlefields it seems.

Maybe we need a monument including Lee and his own words on the matter about how otherwise decent people can be made to work towards evil ends for good intentions.

PM sent…

Amicalement
Armand

Tango:

To answer your question directly.

He who controls the past controls the future. He who controls the present controls the past.

Joe Collins

why do they remove the statues …?

Are not they part of Virginia History?…

Because they celebrate someone who was on the wrong side of history…someone who read "we hold this truth to be self evident…that all men are created equal"

and thought

"Hell yeah! Right on brother!! Oh, except for slaves".

The recent terrorist attack in Charlottesville shows that this attitude is slow to change with some people.

Totally agree with Irishmarine.

@foxweasel – we're a bit ambivalent to Guy Fawkes.

He looks a cheeky imp, where's that?

I just find it odd how the Emancipation Proclamation (1863) only applied to slaves held in Confederate territory, but the states that today are called "border states", which were part of the Union since the war started*, were specifically excluded by name from having to free their slaves. Those slave-owning Union States continued to keep their slaves until after the war was over with, when the 13th Amendment was finally ratified and made into Law.

Obviously slavery wasn't all there was to it.

Of course, that's not something that many students are taught these days.

Dan
* Meaning the MO, KY, MD and DE that threw their lot with the Union before the start of the war. As for WV these were counties that seceded from the Confederacy after the start of the War.

And Fawkes isn't the appropriate comparison (he's more like Aaron Burr). Better would be Cromwell or de Montfort.

Yes. Tear down all those Cromwell statues, and those of the other regicide conspirators! :)

Dan