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"3/1 Drummers' Lace at Waterloo" Topic


11 Posts

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320 hits since 12 Aug 2017
©1994-2017 Bill Armintrout
Comments or corrections?

Chris Rance12 Aug 2017 1:18 p.m. PST

Can anyone confirm for me the correct colour lace for drummers of the 3/1? The Mont St. Jean website gives it as gold, Franklin just says that royal lace was "considerably raised above the common lace", I can't seem to find anything in any of the Ospreys I own, and the images I have found online are frankly confusingly often white (and I am therefore confused). Should the lace be gold or just a better quality white with blue worm (how I paint "better quality", I don't know)?

Any help greatly appreciated.Thanks.

Personal logo deadhead Supporting Member of TMP12 Aug 2017 1:26 p.m. PST

You do mean the 1st of the Line? Pontius Pilate's Bodyguard….

You are not referring to 1st Guards are you? Totally different….but even then, drummers lace would never be gold. That would be just a bit extravagant!

Chris Rance12 Aug 2017 1:59 p.m. PST

Yes, the Royal Scots. I am now doing Picton's Division on the grounds of the variety of uniforms (28th in their stovepipes, rifles, highlanders and a royal regiment) but I didn't really think that through. There's so much tartan …

I didn't think gold would be right, but since the Mont St. Jean website is the only reference I could find that actually gave an example, I thought I'd ask. The TMP hive mind is usually great for things like this.

Artilleryman Supporting Member of TMP12 Aug 2017 3:23 p.m. PST

Both Franklin and the Mont Saint Jean website show yellow not gold lace with a stylised thistle for the 'First and worst'. I can see why you thought gold, but yellow is the colour.

dibble13 Aug 2017 2:44 a.m. PST

I think the yellow lace is rather iffy if you ask me.

All Royal Regiments have lace which is 'predominately' white with blue designs. There is no evidence that the actual lace for the Royal Scot's drummers was yellow and going by the surviving documentary evidence the other regiments had white in their drummers lace throughout. The Royal Scots had no yellow in their regimental lace anyway, it being white with a central royal blue stripe.

If I were still wargaming, I would paint the drummer with lace similar to all the other royal line regiments in that scale, perhaps add a tiny touch of red to the blue design on the lace (on 28-30mm scale fig's).

Paul :)

Supercilius Maximus13 Aug 2017 4:22 a.m. PST

@ dibble,

Drummers of Royal regiments all had a special lace, which was a dull yellow (that resembles "old gold" from a distance) with a blue stripe, which was the livery of the House of Guelph/Hannover. White tended to be the predominant colour in other line regiments, as you describe.

This website gives the 1st Foot drummers dull yellow lace with a blue stripe for the drummers, albeit for the mid-18th Century/FIW period:-

fifedrum.org/crfd/BD_1.htm

There's no reason to imagine this would have changed much by 1815.

If you check on the AWI menu, you will find the 4th, 7th, 8th, 18th, 21st and 23rd Foot (also "Royal" regiments) had a similar drummers' lace with either one blue line, two (23rd), or blue chevrons (7th).

dibble13 Aug 2017 2:03 p.m. PST

I'm sorry but we are discussing the lace for 1815. and be aware that lace shapes and design changed for the regiments between 1792 and 1813.

Even the whole unifornm for drummers changed by this date.

Franklin's book for the Napoleonic wars and Simkin are just some of my references.


Paul :)

Supercilius Maximus14 Aug 2017 2:53 a.m. PST

If you don't have a specific source for changes pre-1815, surely the most sensible thing is to go back to where you do have something and start from there?

The fact is that the general design of regimental lace did not change so drastically that blue stripes/chevrons on yellow was replaced as the standard for Royal regiments. And other than the general cut of the uniform, drummers clothing would have changed less than most, since the post-1811 reversion to red coats with lace (from reverse-coloured coats) would not have applied to Royal regiments anyway, surely?

dibble14 Aug 2017 4:10 p.m. PST

My comment was a general remark on the changes to the British uniform over the period which included changes to both the foot and horse regiments. The infantry changes included lace patterns and lace shape too. We also see a change in cap and cap-badge design. Shoulder-belt plates also changed. You references are from the revolutionary war. Since that time, the British uniform changed many times in design and detail. Your source has no illustration from that period of the Royals lace design anyway!

Here is Franklin's lace illustration which includes the yellow braid, drummers lace. He illustrates it without actually endorsing its use. Notice the change from one regimental lace design to another.


Please don't think for a moment that I agree utterly with my information, I don't and I always look out for inaccuracies which have been passed down from original sources. For example:

If I were wargaming, my 78th (Ross-Shire Buff's) would be on the field sporting 'evenly spaced pairs' instead of 'evenly spaced singles'.

Paul :)

Supercilius Maximus15 Aug 2017 1:35 a.m. PST

Point taken – the lace from Franklin is definitely different, but still the same colour mix.

What on earth is that motif? It looks like something from that Space Invaders arcade game from the 1970s!

dibble15 Aug 2017 1:49 p.m. PST

It's meant to be a thistle surmounted by a crown.

Paul :)

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