"Wheeled armored vehicle vs fence" Topic

I'm curious how a wheeled armored vehicle, such as an SdKfz 222, would deal with a well made wooden fence. I've seen lots of cars and pick ups hit fence posts. Often, the post is pushed way over, but the vehicle was stopped. Would a wheeled armored vehicle blow right through a fence, or (in game terms) should there be a penalty for crossing a fence?

The 222 weighed a reasonable amount but, wasn't stunningly fast cross-country so..?

It's a good question. Even a fairly light tank would probably be able to power through a well-made wooden fence but, they have a traction advantage over wheeled vehicles.

It would depend upon how "well made" the fence was. But surely part of setting up the game would be to determine the effects of all terrain pieces present upon all the troop types involved. Essentially you decide beforehand what effect the fence will have.

222: 8000 lbs. For comparison, a Ford F150 goes around 5000. So I'd guess the armored car would pretty much demolish the fence.

Back in the day a Popular Mechanics road test of an M-60 noted it could push over a 6-inch diameter tree.

Admittedly rather more of an obstacle that a 6-inch fence post, but then a 50 ton tank.

If one hits between the posts not that hard. Also depends on the ground – on occasion fenceposts were set in holes dug into rock making them much harder to knock over.

ACs also have bumpers and frames that are meant for rougher handling than a passenger car. I don't se a problem in most situations.

and there is a 19 year old driving…

Its a how long is a piece of string question.

On a dry field without tall crops, probably bust right through it.
On a rainy day going through a water filled ditch before you hit it, might be as strong as a stone wall.

In my experience armor drivers love to crush things. this is tempered by the NCO in charge of the vehicle, who has a mission to accomplish, and smashing fences is not part of it. Popping a tire, or throwing a track does not enhance your ability to accomplish that mission. Almost all the time you can go around a fence, and when you cant, there are gates.

So can you smash through it? Maybe. Is it worth the risk? Again maybe. But gamers are often like privates, they love to crush things.

Owen

8000lb, 75hp SdKfz222? would likely knock down a wooden fence, assuming typical Western American construction (4" square posts set ~18" deep in concrete or ~24" deep in soil).

Heavy fencing using railroad ties set ~4 feet deep, I dunno if a SdKfz 222 has enough oomph to do the job.

A Stryker, on the other hand, can power through the brick walls of Afghan compounds. Then again, a Stryker is 20 tons and 350hp. Or more, once you add the slat armor.

In my experience armor drivers love to crush things.

I can agree with that as well …

Doesn't it depend on if you can avid the uprights (posts)? if the vehicle is narrow enough and the palings long enough – don't you just pick the gap – if you can?

You can find all kinds of clips on YouTube of "tanks" like the FT and BT-5 crashing into trees, and knocking them down!
Considering they have the armor of a Chevy pickup, I would say that movie special effects go back some time. It didn't start with Star Wars.

why dont you just make a mechanic like on. a 6 the vehocle is imobilized either permanently or temporarily. i would think generally they would be able to break a 4x4 if moving at a decent speed. its risk vs reward. makes for fun in my opinion. tanks could also throw tracks or get stuck on stumos. video on youtube somewhere of tests on wwii vehicles. think a sherman and panther are featured.

" Would a wheeled armored vehicle blow right through a fence, or (in game terms) should there be a penalty for crossing a fence?"

What are we talking about here? WWII or an episode of the Dukes of Hazard?

First off, fences such as described are common enough in the US but relatively rare in mid 20th century NWE (and pretty much unheard of in the Soviet Union or the desert.
Farmland in Europe doesn't really get fenced of as it does in the states, it tends to have hedges or walls. both of which can more often than not have a ditch on one or both sides, so any driver of a wheeled vehicle, even our 19 year old one (not many 19 year olds in European armies could drive anyway) with 1/2 a brain cell wouldn't take any obstacle at much more than walking pace. Sturdy wooden fences might exist more around farms and BUA's but the driver (or commander) isn't going to "blow" through anything. Recce wehicles tend to sneak about rather than try and crash through obstacles making all sorts of noise and fuss.

I can remember seeing the aftermath of an Army CUCV[Dodge Pick-up painted camo with radio mount, the Army used in the '80s] along a trail at Ft. Drum, NY. When an M60 MBT ran over the front end at a trail intersection in the thick woods. The engine, etc., was about 8 inches high. Missed the driver's feet/legs by less than 12 inches.

Generally speaking heavy armored vehicles can do a lot of damage without firing a shot. Just run stuff over …

Recce wehicles tend to sneak about rather than try and crash through obstacles making all sorts of noise and fuss.

Very true, Recon units don't want to draw attention to themselves. But if it happens and shooting, etc., starts. They might take any route out of the enemy LOF/S. "Live to fight another day", so to speak.

I was told a story by a gent whose Grandad(?) was in an M5 Stuart crew in France '44. While on a Recon, a Tiger I broke thru the woodline. And took aim at the M5, who was basically in the open, between cover. The crew bailed out immediately. There was no cover, no place to hide. Before the Tiger got off a shot. And they certainly couldn't out run an 88mm round. Almost as soon as they bailed. The Tiger's 88 blasted/brewed up the M5. Even some of the crew getting WIA'd by shrapnel, etc.

Legion we saw an Iraqi staff car that had been chased down into a wadi of some sort, from the tracks it looked like 2 of them did it. Driver mush have thought he got away until he met the third one on the way out. it looked like the tanker got his track almost on the hood ornament. The back left corner was maybe 3 foot tall, the rest of it much shrter than that. I am sure there were many high 5s and hooahs and such like.

Owen

LOL ! Yeah AFV crews love doing that kind of stuff !

It even came to the point at Ft. Benning, GA all the track crews and units were not authorized/allowed to run over trees. With all those AFVs there, it would have eventually "deforested" many places on post…

Weren't most WW2 era vehicles underpowered? Someone cited the 75bhp SdKfz222 above but likewise the 251s were all around the 100bhp mark and weighed 8 tons. How hard could it have hit a fence-post anyway? 100 bhp for a 2-ton car would be considered not a lot power nowadays.

4th Cuirassier, correct. That is why the amount of space you have to run up to it is important. A US M1 is considered a drag racer going from 0-20MPH in 7 seconds. WWII is a lot worse. So you need so clear area to build up a bit of energy before smackig a fence.

quite…hence my Dukes of Hazard comparison..:-)
The important thing really is what would happen to the vehicle after it went through the fence? chances are it would hit something else or lose control and crash (and the driver would be aware of this) so the circumstances would have to be pretty extreme for a driver to attempt this, and if from a standing start whatever threat was causing this extreme response would probably complete that threat before the A/C even got near the fence.
Like I said, its WWII, not Fast & Furious III

That is why the amount of space you have to run up to it is important.

Yes, trying to gain momentum, building up speed, etc. Plus, many WWII vehicle were generally not as "sturdy", etc., as later designs. I'm sure in some cases during WWII the driver/crews may have found that out the hard way.

For gaming purposes, we had rules about a Dangerous Terrain Test. And a die roll would have to be taken, e.g. before and/or after the crossing of certain terrain/obstacles, etc. … To assess if the "crossing was successful", if it was stuck/damaged, etc.

And something we have not really talked about is the effect on the crew. Even if the vehicle makes it through just fine, how badly is the crew hammered? It doesnt do much good to get through the fence if your driver cant continue. I have been tossed clear out if the hatch on an M577 because of a hole the driver did not see. If you guess wrong about what is on the back side of a fence you get to find out what that is like.

Owen

Yeah, the National Guard drivers aren't allowed to drive over sagebrush out in the Orchard Training Area. Not because of damage to the sage brush, but because sagebrush likes to hide rocks large enough to shatter the transmission housing on an M113 or Bradley, and potentially stop even an Abrams(!).

And something we have not really talked about is the effect on the crew.

Yes, I too have been bounced around in M113s, M577s, etc. There are no seatbelts, at least I never remember have seen any/used them !

Just like flying in Hueys or Blackhawks, there were seat belts, IIRC, but I never remember using them ! And we almost always flew with the doors wide open. For a number of obvious reasons.

hide rocks large enough to shatter the transmission housing

That would keep the Maint Tms pretty busy …

We have bog rolls, based on the quality of the crew. some fences are decorative and don't require a bog roll. You fail a bog roll you stop halfway across the obstacle. You fail the next turn you're stuck for the game, unless someone else (heavier) tries to push you out, then they make the bog rolls…

That was generally what I was talking about. It just has to be geared for the rules being used, era, etc.

hide rocks large enough to shatter the transmission housing

Same at Ft Irwin. I drove paranoid in that place. Every bush, ditch, rock was a trap waiting to cause unnamed mischief. Saw a M60 brought to a full halt when it hit a "bush" that hid a 3' boulder. And the PLT SSG was NOT pleased….

Yeah, the NTC was just full of surprises !