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"Aotrs Shipyards July 2017 Release: Marders (144)" Topic


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Aotrs Commander22 Jul 2017 5:40 a.m. PST

Aotrs Shipyards is a webstore on Shapeways.com, a 3D print house which had production and shipping facilities located in the USA and the Netherlands.

(Cross-linking to the 3D print boards because the photos of the new material in beta (see below) might also be of interest.)

A little late because of being unable to post on the forums, but here is this month's release: the Marder 1A1 and 1A2 in 144th!

There are two versions of each model: one with the MILAN in position, and one with the MILAN removed from its mounting. (I have not made the dismounted MILAN, becase it would be too fiddly; and the position made it impossible to make it removable like the machine guns on other models).

The idea is that if desired, you could swap turret when the MILAN is dismounted by the infantry in lieu of having to have a marker. (Or, alternatively, just prefer to have the model without one, which would be a little more damage tolerant!) I will be releasing a set of turret spares (nominally a half-dozen of both MILAN mounted and removed for each variant) shortly, for those that might want to have both for that former use use.

I have not done the base Marder 1 (for one I simply did not find any references photos to work from), but from what my limited understanding is, the only visible surface difference to the pre-1977 Marder 1a was the MILAN mount was missing. If there is interest, then, it is a fairly trivial job to create a variant without the mounting.

A general note. I use (unfortunately) Photobucket for my images for the purposes of linkage. (As you can imagine, storage was never an issue with the amount of data I have to keep, I have a very extensive set of back-ups, including off-site backups for all my data!) I was – fortunately – paying for it already (though given that they fracked me around with that, they were already in my bad books), so from what I can gather from the internet (since they have not had the decency to send me any emails about it, though they have sent plenty of spam advertising this and that), my links will remain until the end of the year. Funnily enough, I will NOT be paying $400 USD a year for the privilege of being able to link stuff to forum posts and whatnot; that is a sizeable proportion of my actual income from the webstore. I will, when I have some spare time to do so, start looking for an alternative. As I can't edit old posts on these forums, unfortunately this will mean (unless Photobucket change their minds) that the links to all the photos will no longer show the photos. (I will not, however, being emptying and closing my account unless it becomes obvious that after that time that the legacy "pay us money to have this work" links don't take you to the image at all, which I'm not sure about.) If I could edit them, I'm bloody minded enough that I would have done it.

If folk have suggestions as to others suitable sites (paid is acceptable, so long as it is not a stupid price) for the purposes of linking images, I would welcome the suggestions.

Right, to business!


Marder 1A1


link

MILAN removed
link

Marder 1A2


link

MILAN removed
link

Photos, as per usual, are of the Replicator 2 prototypes. Notably, the complex turret of the Marder is not, as you can see, best suited for Replicator prints – so apologise for that. But I always figure that a photo of the real model is better than a render (which you can see on Shpeways anyway!)

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Secondly, I have some photos of the T-80BV in WSF as promised.
T-80BV WSF


I can also show you the T-80BV in the upcoming HP Grey Strong and Flexible material, currently in beta for creators only. This material has been created in conjunction with HP by Shapeways. The new material is slightly better than WSF in terms of sharpness of detail and surface finish. You can see some comparison pictures below. (The surface looks a lot rougher than it is; it's actually smoother than WSF – it's just mottled in colour.) At the moment, the price is only about a pound more for the T-80BV. Assuming it does not vary wildly (and I think the intention is it shouldn't), HPGSW will be a cheaper alternative to having to use the much more expensive frosted detail materials. I will be putting another order possibly later this week, and we shall try painting the next batch to see how that works. How strong it truly is remains to be seen, but it seems from the cursory inspection to be at least as sturdy WSF.

(Not looking foward about having to go back through 300-odd models to set it up once released, mind…!)

I have elected not to reduce the image size these pictures (like I normally do as above), on the basis that for this instance, giving you a better look at the new material seems the best option.


Comparison with WSF (normally with WSF, I tweak the contrast, so you can see the detail better, but doing that with these shots made the GSF too dark.)



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Next month's release is unconfirmed, though there is a fair chance it will be the Marder 1A3 or the Unimog – it will really depend on how the last bits of preparation for my starship rules and for the upcoming convention take and whether I will have time to do a new vehicle.

ODGW Kenny22 Jul 2017 2:22 p.m. PST

Question for those who sell 3-D printed models.


Why are they so dang expensive?!?! In 1/144 scale a MBT is 2.5 x 1.25 inches (approx.. Some bigger some smaller)


I understand the time to created the 3D files, the time to print, the cost of the printer (a good one) and the material. Yes, the initial cost is expensive. But if you apply a good business model you can re-coop your cost buy selling more printed copies.


Metal makers in 1/144 scale charge $3.5 USD to $6. USD 3-D printer makers charge $10. USD But you need a platoon (3-5) or worst a company (10-14). This price difference is a BIG reason why myself and others drool over the gorgeous models but never purchase.


Most gamers simply won't buy unless the price comes close to metal makers.


(Disclaimer – Yes I have a solution. Yes I can follow my own advice. One day I will. However right now I simply do not have the time or capital to create my own 3-D print shop in a quality I'd consider sell-able.)


I ask this of those who have already pioneered the market.


Respectfully

Aotrs Commander22 Jul 2017 3:27 p.m. PST

In short, Because that's the cost it is to have the printed. For example, over 90% of the cost of my models is the simply the cost of the print house to print it. I make somewhere between 50p and a quid per tank, that's all; because I want to keep the price down for you, the potenial customer. (I also base that margin on the cost of the cheapest material and apply that flat cost to all the materials; so the only people who make more money off buying one of my models in the more expensive materials is Shapeways.) If I could sell them for less that that I certainly would like to.

For their part of the price, you'd have to ask Shapeways, and they would, I suspect, tell you that is how much they worked out it costs them to print them. Aside from the all the actual setting up and printing of a printer full of models, even WSF has to be cleaned up (or washed off) and such, and that takes someone's time (and therefore salary.)

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I (and I suspect UshCha) would be quite interested in seeing where your $3.50 USD models are coming from. A lot of the places we have seen in the UK were about the same cost as 3D printed models, in the £5.00 GBP-10 range. Yeah, Shapeways stuff is not the cheapest of the metal models, but it's not the most expensive either. (I will toot my own horn a bit and say also that I have had a fair few people say to me my models are better than metal castings.)

(And it can't be far off, either, since the prices of my starships are, for example, are very similar to Ground Zero Games' metal ones over the same size.)

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So, to expand, why I am using sahpeways and not doing it all myself?

Setting up your own print house is more than just getting one printer – unless that printer is one of the sort that Shapeways uses and I suspect they will have several even of those. I can't quote you a price range for those, since the last time I looked, nowhere that sold them would tell you how much they are. (And if you have to ask…)

A home printer like the replicator 2 certainly has low material costs (it cost me a mere fraction of what I have to pay at Shapeways). So sure, I do a lot of my own stuff on the Rep 2, because I'm as tighta wargamer as you all are!

But the Rep 2 has a lot of limitations which mean it isn't great for some types of model or for commerical production – at least not with only one.

One reason is because of the support material, which needs to be cleaned off. One is simply speed. It takes a good two hours to print an average tank – and that number does not change if you try to full the build plate[1]. You also can't just turn it on and leave it over night.

So if you want to sell them fom your own business and not out-source to a commerical print-house, you would need far more than one printer, just to keep a sensible load.

On top of that, you have to do all the cleaning of support material, and that can easily take another half-hour per tank.

And of course, while you're doing all that, plus all the usual stuff, you're not doing the CAD design.

The time it takes me, by-the-by, to do a tank model is on the order of about twenty to thirty hours (which breaks down to about two week's worth of sessions, since you can't do more than about four to five hours in one sitting before you start to make mistakes[2].

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So, using Shapeways at least means I can keep a steady stream of releases every month (and sci-fi releases most months) instead of having to faff about dealing with orders and whatnot.

I did, in fact, start out by doing models no-one else does; but people clamoured for me to do more stuff (like the BMP-1 – and the Marders). I really only started doing the cold War stuff instead of the modern/ultramodern because that was what people wanted.

3D printing also allows you to get models that would be not very economical to produce via traditional casting methods (e.g. the IMR-2), because you will never sell that many, unlike, say MBTs and IFVs. (From talking to people (e.g. the fine folk at Kallistra), if you are likely to sell less than 5000, it generally isn't worth the investment for something like injection moulding.)

Shapeways, for all the flack I give them sometimes, then, at least allowed me to start the Shipyards up without having to invest a huge ampount of capital I wolud never have had.

(It in the end, became my full-time job when it became the alternative to the dole – and I make about as much money then as now t the moment. And if I'm brutally honest, that is because I am self-employed and do make a profit each year, I qualify for tax credit, which covers my low personal circumstances. I likely couldn't do it if I was not in the exact situation I am.)

So that's why the Shipyards is a Shapeways webstore beholden to their prices.

But – I sell stuff regularly. Not a lot, but I get a steady trickle, and the more stuff I put out and the larger my ranges get, the more I sell. (Shapeways actually made me one of the featured stores in the scifi section, which ws the point I realised they were actually paying me some attention!) So, there is a market.

The cost of 3D printing may come down with time, though it may take a few years (or it may not, since the phsyical speed of the printers is at about the limit and further accuracy is getting into the levels where you would need a sealed temperature-stable environment to go much further. The price of metal is also unfortunately, more likely to go up than down. But for the moment, they are what they are. You as the customer will have to decide whether or not you think they are worth the price or not, and on how much you want, for example, models that are not available in metal.

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It is also worth noting in passing that a lot of metal casters are starting use 3D printing for their masters. If you will again forgibe my own presumption, Kallistra's new range of 144 World War I tanks are all designed by Aotrs Shipyards.

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Hopefully that answered your question?
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[1]Actually, that's generally a bad idea, since if a) doesn't save you any time really and b) if it goes wrong, you waste far more time and material. Little and often.

[2]Which is about all the amnount of time you'd spend doing in actual CAD work in a CAD jockey job – the rest of your work day being meetings and all the other office gubbins.)

UshCha24 Jul 2017 1:33 p.m. PST

ODGW,
I have looked in the UK, cheapest metal tanks are $6.00 USD and those can be poor. More typicaly $10 USD+ and some significantly more. On that basis 3D prints are competative and personaly I considere metal a very poor second to 3D printed which more durable and more consistent in detail. Metal often fouls up when its multi part as the parts do no fit perfectly and don't get me started on bent gun barrels.

ODGW Kenny24 Jul 2017 7:11 p.m. PST

Aotrs,

Thanks for the reply. Have read it several times to better understand. And mostly agree with what you have said. My question was not to harass about your prices, the price point is what you set as a business (cost of production with a little over head) I too set prices on the table top rules we publish at ODGW. So I understand better than most. I didn't realize the Shapeways cost so much as a service.


For your information. My comparison wrt prices was Miniature Figurines, Pendraken, and Butler's Printed Models


Vehicle was the Centurion Mk 5


Aotrs Shipyards – $9.90 USD USD
Miniature Figurines – £4.50 GBP Pound ($5.86 USD)
Pendraken – £4.50 GBP Pound ($5.86 USD)
Butler's Printed Models – £3.75 GBP ($4.88 USD)


Again this was just for comparison. Yes, I agree that metal does not offer the same level of detail. However I'm simply wanting to play a game not create a Museum diorama. I specifically ask about your models because you do some items that no one else has done (yet). Fielding a company can get a bit expensive…


Thanks again for the discussion, I appreciate your time. …and your models. <grin>

ODGW Kenny24 Jul 2017 7:33 p.m. PST

UshCha,

You have good points, but I'm just looking to game at a reasonable cost. Appreciate the point of view.

EdDowgiallo25 Jul 2017 4:24 p.m. PST

Alex,

Please contact me directly.

EdDowgiallo@gmail.com

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