"Probably a dumb 40k Question- Primaris Marines?" Topic

My older son is home from college for the summer and my younger son has been bugging me for about a year to get into 40K, so with the release of 8th edition, it seemed like a good time to start. The boys have really gotten into it and my gaming table has been the scene of lots of battles over the past few weeks.

I've had some armies over the years (various starter sets, painted armies I bought and odds and ends) with the intention of playing, but never really got started as I never had the time and the giant rulebooks really turned me off. I have to say I really like 8th Edition. The simple to digest rules and the indexes have made it a lot of fun to get right in and learn the ins and outs of the various forces. They finally broke that entre to play barrier for me.

My youngest has been building up his Necron Army while my elder son has been playing with (and adding to) the Tau and Imperial Guard (and I still call them that- sorry Adeptus whateverus you are called now) armies I had. I am finally putting together a Space Marine army from all the sets I've had sitting in boxes over the years and have quite a force just from that.

However, not having the history with the rules, I have what is probably a pretty stupid question. Can I mix Primaris Space Marines with regular Space Marines? (I know that theoretically I can do whatever I want, but I mean within the context of the rules?)

I confess that I don't really get what the deal is with the Primaris Space Marines. Why are there bigger marines (besides GW wanting me to buy them?) I bought the starter set with the Primaris Marines, and already have a decent sized Ultramarine force, so if it's no big deal, I plan to mix them together.

Thanks for allowing a 'sort of' noob to ask dumb questions.

Yes you can mix them in. They are the next generation of Space Marine redesigned at the order of Roboute Guilliman. Kinda like the space marine of space marines.

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Why are there bigger marines (besides GW wanting me to buy them?)

Actually this is a way for GW to make more money from their Fanboyz.

They will slowly get rid of the normal size Marines and some time in the future the only ones you can buy will be these bigger and more expensive Marines.

As noted you can mix and match

I have to suspect that Mithmee is right – look at what happened to my beloved Beckies (fortunately I had a box set that I kept)

It is actually a response to customer demand. There are countless people out there making "true scale" marines in various ways. If you google this you can find plenty of blogs on how to do it.

The problem has always been that marines don't fit with the fluff of the game. Many fans were spending a lot of time correcting this. GW made the decision to make it easier for them and did it in such a way that it didn't invalidate the rest of the marines out there.

Mithmee knows this, he has been shown it before. His claims otherwise are disingenuous.

Thanks for the answers. Here's a related question. Can I put a squad of Primaris inside a standard Rhino, or do I need a Primarus Rhino?

I think you will probably need a primaris rhino but if you read the index they can't go in that either. Both exclude jump pack, primaris, terminator and centurion models from being transported. I suspect in the case of the primaris rhino that is a typo.

Thanks, Pictors.

Seems like a money grab to me.

Mean to say, my husband plays ACW in 15mm. If he decides to buy the 18mm ACW figures from Blue Moon, can he make house rules that the 18mm Union soldiers are a bit better then the Peter Pig rebs?

GW should have just been honest and said "these marine figures are true scale. Give the people what they want, and all that."

Nope. What they do is make fluff that says "these marines,,,"

AH, I don't care. Its stupid to con people.

If GW had done that then everyone would be bitching that they invalidated their whole army.

I'm not sure what the problem is with their being bigger marines.

Comparing it to the American Civil War is a straw man. There wasn't genetic modification of humans in the 19th century. I'm not an expert on the American Civil War but I don't remember reading about Space Marines being employed by either side.

If you were playing a steampunk or VSF game where Dr. Venkenstein sided with the North and produced a bunch of super human soldiers then of course he can make a house rule that says the Blue Moon 18mm figs are better than the 15mm Peter Pig rebs.

Your reasoning on this point is not very good.

GW is not being dishonest. What they have done is come up with a system where people who have collected big armies of figures can play alongside people who have new armies of bigger figures without any real disparity in the fluff.

They have also allowed people who want their stuff to look right on the table top the chance to field marines that will look and play like the towering, super human warriors they are.

They noticed that the Nurgle figures are now also much bigger that previous models.

I was always a bit disappointed that the Space Marines in the rules didn't match the fluff. They were pretty good, but nowhere near the 'ultimate warriors' they were supposed to be. I like the stats of the Primaris Marines and I may just use those and the point cost with my old Space Marine models and not worry about getting the new figures.

Hardly a strawman.

GW will very soon stop making the old marines. Then its EBAY or nothing.

Again, GW are running a con.

Does Chevrolet still make a 67 Camaro?
No? I guess it's a con.

Your use of the example of the ACW figures in your argument is exactly a strawman. You are positing an argument that no one is putting forth. No one is saying that you can just put bigger miniatures on the table and say they are better in a historical game.

You are putting forth an absurd argument to try to show a parallel that doesn't exist.

Your assertions are backed up by nothing. Your argument is based on logical fallacies.

It is actually a response to customer demand. There are countless people out there making "true scale" marines in various ways. If you google this you can find plenty of blogs on how to do it.

The problem has always been that marines don't fit with the fluff of the game. Many fans were spending a lot of time correcting this. GW made the decision to make it easier for them and did it in such a way that it didn't invalidate the rest of the marines out there.

Mithmee knows this, he has been shown it before. His claims otherwise are disingenuous.

First off there was and has been no demand by Customers for bigger Marines.

True there are sites on how to convert them to be bigger but there has never been a demand.

Second these new Marines still do not even come close to what a real Space Marine is capable of. Because if they did I should be able to field a squad of them and destroy whole companies of Imperial Guard.

Even with two wounds they still die and actually probably die quicker now due to the changes GW made to weapons and how models are wounded.

I was always a bit disappointed that the Space Marines in the rules didn't match the fluff.

So true like when an Eldar Exarch fears them because a past version was killed by them.

Or like while Terminators have some problems clearing out a Space Hulk of Genestealers they still end up killing lots of Genestealers.

But on the tabletop they die very quickly and do not perform the way they should.

You are putting forth an absurd argument to try to show a parallel that doesn't exist.

Actually not true since Prussian Grenadiers usually were well over 6 feet tall at the time and they were consider elite soldiers back during the 1700's.

So size does matter.

"True there are sites on how to convert them to be bigger but there has never been a demand."

This is much akin to people not believing in microbes because they cannot see them.

There was a demand for larger marines. I wanted them for one, and many others did too. Your statement is only proof of your own ignorance and deliberate ignorance since this has been proven to you before.

"Even with two wounds they still die and actually probably die quicker now due to the changes GW made to weapons and how models are wounded."

More ignorance. You haven't used them in a game and you have no idea what they are capable of doing. They are very effective as they also have a second attack and a longer range with their primary weapon.

As you've not played with them, perhaps you should reserve comment until you know what you are talking about.

"Actually not true since Prussian Grenadiers usually were well over 6 feet tall at the time and they were consider elite soldiers back during the 1700's."

Well actually the argument she made was that this didn't happen or shouldn't in historical games.

At least this time you failed in your ability to reason instead of your knowledge providing us with some diversity in the incoherence of your arguments.

You haven't used them in a game and you have no idea what they are capable of doing. They are very effective as they also have a second attack and a longer range with their primary weapon.

As you've not played with them, perhaps you should reserve comment until you know what you are talking about.

Thing is they still only have a 3+ Save and with Armor Save modifiers back in the game that 3+ Plus can very quickly become either 4+ or 5+.

So I don't need to use them to know that I can kill them fairly quickly.

Plus even with a 3+ Save GW has made 40K into a bucket of dice game using nothing but D6's, so those 1's & 2's will happen.

Oh and most games are still being played on a 4 foot wide table and normal shooting distance is less than 18 inches.

So that long range weapon is not as helpful as you think.

Well actually the argument she made was that this didn't happen or shouldn't in historical games.

That is not what she said.

Mean to say, my husband plays ACW in 15mm. If he decides to buy the 18mm ACW figures from Blue Moon, can he make house rules that the 18mm Union soldiers are a bit better then the Peter Pig rebs?

She asked if her husband could make the tall soldiers a bit better than the smaller ones.

Which as I pointed out actually did happen back in the 1700's Prussia.

You are very quick to put down anyone you disagree with along with attempts to make them look dumb and stupid.

"She asked if her husband could make the tall soldiers a bit better than the smaller ones."

She asked it as a means to show that making bigger marines better in WH40K was a scam. You pointed out that it actually happened, sort of.

Her argument and your argument are at cross purposes and you aren't understanding the point she was trying to make.

As it turns out I don't need to attempt to make certain people look stupid. They usually do it themselves.

"So I don't need to use them to know that I can kill them fairly quickly.

Plus even with a 3+ Save GW has made 40K into a bucket of dice game using nothing but D6's, so those 1's & 2's will happen.

Oh and most games are still being played on a 4 foot wide table and normal shooting distance is less than 18 inches.

So that long range weapon is not as helpful as you think."

Again, your ignorance is showing. I've played both with and against the new marines. They aren't indestructible but they can kill A LOT of the enemy.

The last game we played was a meat grinder mission and the Genestealer cult Acolytes big unit got wiped out 4 times in the game. The smaller unit got wiped out twice. Both neophyte units were wiped out 1 and 2 times each respectively. The Primus was killed three times, the Magus once. The abberants were killed once. Only the standard bearer made it the whole way through the game.

These new marines are very tough and function much more like marines do in the fluff than the old ones.

"So I don't need to use them to know that I can kill them fairly quickly."

Actually you only imagine that you can, you don't know anything because you haven't done it. And having played with them I know you are wrong.

OK, Strawman or not, Pictors, would you not agree that this "bigger, badder(but LOOK KIDS!bigger!!!) marines was'nt a thing until very recently?

No matter what you say, I will bet my brushes that granny will not make another "old style marines" kit, again. They must be seeing a slow down on the marines sales. So its either be ok with that, or do something different.

GW could'nt even be bothered to figure out "do something different" and go there. They pencil in some fluff which did'nt figure into the background until last Thursday, and tell all the bothered vet gamers(people who gw have said don't matter to them, anyway) "we will support both sized marines forevah! But with no new kits, and all these super badass toys coming out, why not buy them?

Look, play the game with whatever you want(my husband has about 300(yeah. 300+)metal first ed marines(and God knows how many RTB01 beakies) he is thinking of painting and playing 8th with. But don't say this isn't about GW being anything but greedy. When will kits start coming up "unavailable"?

"OK, Strawman or not, Pictors, would you not agree that this "bigger, badder(but LOOK KIDS!bigger!!!) marines was'nt a thing until very recently?"

No I wouldn't say that. If you believe that you are just wrong. True scale marines is something fans have demanded for a long time now.

Proof:

Reddit post from 2014:

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Blog tutorial from 2015:

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Blog tutorial from 2017:

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Blog tutorial from four years ago:

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Spikey Bits article from 2015:

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If giving your customers what they are demanding and actually willing to spend more money and time and effort on to do cheaper and without all that time and effort is greedy then I guess you can call it greedy.

It just seems like another in a line of decisions that GW has made over the last two years to really start listening to their customers and giving them what they want.

I think that sales of regular marines will slump, probably. I'll keep buying them for 30K but not for 40K. I think the decision will come around to get rid of the old size ones eventually. I don't think it will be for a while but it will probably be an organic process as people want marines that are in-scale with the fluff in the game.

I probably wouldn't have bought into a new marine army without them. I would have done an Imperial Guard army to fight my Genestealer Cult guys.

Here's a blog from 2012:

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It has a comparison of marines to Cadians. This has been a thing even further back than that.

The fluff is basically a way to allow people to continue using their old smaller marines when the new bigger marines exist. I don't really care for the fluff itself but its a decent way of not just cutting over to larger scale marines and having people feel that their old stuff is immediately outdated.

So a very small group of players wanted them.

I and many others were not clamoring for them at all.

But I see you decided to not answer Shilreylyn'a question.

When will kits start coming up "unavailable"?

Because they will stop making the smaller size Marines.

That is now GW does business.

Okay, I am guessing that GW:
A. is planning to phase out Rhinos, Landraiders, Space Marine Bikes, Chaos Space Marines and their vehicles and everything that is the "Old Scale" as well as all of their 30K stuff for the new Primaris Marines.

OR

B. is simply introducing true scale marines because a "few" people wanted them:)

The storyline says flat out that the old-pattern marines are dying off slowly as most new marines are Primaris.

Whether they'll actually phase out the models is another question, but it's clear that the era of the Space Marine as we knew it for 30 years is over.

I'm guessing that within a year or two we'll see Chaos Primaris as well – the foreshadowing has been pretty obvious.

"So a very small group of players wanted them.

I and many others were not clamoring for them at all"

Says the guy who is out of touch with all things GW and comes from a store where no one plays GW anyway, according to him.

A lot of people have complained about the size of marines compared to other things for years.

I don't think the 30K stuff is going away for the same reason that it did not switch to 8th edition.

Yeah, they have been complaining that Space Hulk was OOP, there were no more Genestealer Cultists, that the figures cost too much, that the rules were too complex, that Warhammer Quest was OOP, that there were no Horus Heresy figures in plastic and that White Dwarf was weekly.

So what did GW do?

They put out Space Hulk again and again and recently again.

They made Genestealer Cult armies available again.

They made ways to buy the figures so that they are much less expensive and lowered the prices on other figures.

Warhammer Quest is back, with several supplements in support.

Two big boxed games providing Horus Heresy plastics plus they then released all those figures in individual boxed sets. The HH boxed games were really good value too.

White Dwarf is now monthly again.

It just seems like bigger marines, which a lot of people want judging by reaction on the forums, was next on the list.

The point I was making is that they have a lot invested in the "regular scale marines" and are not going to introduce new things in the old scale just to discontinue them because some people believe they are trying to screw them over. GW is a company that I am sure is aware of basic business practices like amortization of assets.

The Horus Heresy line is very popular and the scale of the marines used in the 30K setting is not changing. Simply look at what they have invested in the line. I don't believe that I would be that far off the mark by saying that the Horus Heresy line is one of the keys to many old players returning to the game.

What you guys are saying is that they will be phasing out the new plastic MK IIIs, MK IVs, 30K Terminators, and any supporting vehicles for the 30K line because of the scale change.

One of easiest way to figure this out is that they are planning on producing more of the Horus Heresy Black books. If one of the videos I watched on YouTube is correct, they have at least 10 more books left.

What I do see is that they are progressing the storyline of the 40K universe and found a way to introduce larger marines (Primaris Marines)for the people who were interested.

Some of you guys need to look at the whole picture and do a little research before you hit the keyboard to tell us what is going to happen.

I don't understand why people have to complain when new stuff comes out. Don't like it,don't buy it. I for one never get tired of new stuff. What is the big deal anyway. A game/toy company make new toys and it's a Cash grab? No, shite, it is called a retail/manufacturing business. Some folks need to evolve a bit and engage their intellect, instead of emoting like an overgrown child.
Pictors, I get it, man. Cool stuff. Enjoy it and save yourself the effort of arguing with the terminally unhappy.
I suspect you are being trolled a bit by those who just love to unhappy.

So what if they released the new ones to make money, they are a business. Phasing out the old models has always been the way no matter which company we talk about. Historical manufacturers do the same. Improve the line and phase out the old. Im no fan boy and haven't played GW in years but have started with 8th edition again. Its fun and i buy what toys I want without worrying about ulterior motives of sinister capitalist corporations.

In the name of Lord Guilliman, will you BEHAVE yourselves!

Guys (and gal)… a bloke comes onto these forums to ask a question about his hobby, and you dissolve his thread into another round of your usual arguments.

Do you really think that was what he was asking for?

TGerritesen: Yes, you can mix and match both style of Marines. The Primaris Marines are the Imperium's response to it all but collapsing after the forces of Chaos (almost literally) tore the galaxy in two.

As for the smaller Marines being phased out… nobody knows. All you are reading here is opinion.

I'm no GW fan, but even I know that there has been a demand for 'true scale' Marines for a long time and GW seem to have come up with a way to continue selling their original range and a new larger marine at the same time.

The belief that the original size marines and vehicles will be phased out is probably true (eventually), but GW will milk the original size marines for years until sales drop off.

There is still a ton more variety available for 'old' Marines than the new ones. I think we'll still see them around for a while yet.