"Scale Creep – Deliberate or Accidental Discrimination ?" Topic

We all know who started it, but has it become so common now that what is commonly referred to as "Scale Creep" is in fact deliberate marketing designed to discourage veteran gamers – who already have large collections – from buying into new ‘Cool' games aimed at ‘The Kids' ?

I can see the lure, but I see it as completely counterproductive. I am a Vet Gamer with cash to spend. As I approach retirement, my spending is likely to increase as I seek to fill my hard earned leisure time, and yet Figure Designers persist in making bigger and bigger figures that will not fit with my existing collections and which I will therefore never even look at.

This weeks' example is the ‘Rocketmen' KS project on the Crowdfunding Board. Great looking figures, fantastic, I want a complete unit (at least 10) plus a Hero/Officer, and a Heavy Weapons team and at least one NCO-type figure please. Take my money NOW !

Oh. No. They're 32mm. That's me out then, turn the page, don't bookmark the KS, not remotely interested.

Does this represent some sort of "intelligent marketing" ?

Is it a deliberate policy by which those with existing collections are excluded from new games ?

Have older gamers become too uncool to have their wants considered in such projects ?

Should I stop looking at or buying new figures and just play with what I already have ?

Discuss

Just start buying 54mm. Because that's where they're headed next. After that, action figures. After that, statues.

Dan
PS. If I wanted to play with action figures like little kids do, I could have stolen my niece's Barbie and Ken.

I don't know how old you are, but I'm 66. I don't believe I have any old figures at this point. Everything I've purchased recently has been 32mm and larger. I enjoy painting, and find the bigger figures a joy to paint.

I have lots of painted figures to game with and I will be adding to them, but none if them are that big. I paint only to game not as a hobby in itself.

I have only added to existing figs from lines I already have (Foundry and Perry). I have always thought manufactures change the scale so as to lock buyers into their products going forward, rather than find compatible figs from other manufacturers. It worked with me. I am too much of a "Sheldon Cooper" to allow for differences between manufacturers. I have even found some Perry sculpts to differ too much from what I have to bother with them. The problem is me, I know.

You damn kids, git offa mah lawn!

As apparently "the trigger" for this debate, I'll chip in my viewpoint.

It's a difficult dilemma when sculpting a new range deciding exactly where to pitch things in terms of scale, there are so many different companies making really great minis.

Some are described as "28mm", some "heroic 28mm" some as "32mm" and some just don't bother stating, some measure from foot to eye, some from foot to top of head. Some sculptors favour a really chunky style, others slimmer proportions, some systems have a "house style" some sculptors have totally unique styles so their work is instantly recognisable.

So you're designing a new range, what do you do? Unless you can somehow read the minds of every gamer out there, you'll have to make up your own mind. You can choose to ignore what the majority are doing and say I'm sticking with 25mm like my old lead minis from the 80s or you can try to fit in with the general ballpark of modern minis.

Take a look at many of the fantasy/sci-fi figures you have in your collection, how many of those 28s are actually 28mm? Although it is a lesser issue with historical minis in general, there are often still big differences between companies/sculptors.

Lets say you, like me, decide to follow the herd. Next dilemma what do you say about the scale, do you say they are "28mm" (when they are clearly bigger), "heroic 28" (vague to the point of uselessness) or "32mm" (which IMO is the most honest answer and one that is stated more often these days)

I can't speak for the big companies with legions of staff and decisions made for corporate accounting reasons. No doubt they wouldn't have stumbled into this mini minefield as I have ;-). Like many other small manufacturers I was a gamer/collector before I was a designer and my primary motivator in all the things I make is to make something I and hopefully others will enjoy.

No matter what, you cannot possibly make something that will appeal to or please everyone and have to accept every decision you take will be a d****d if you do, d****d if you don't.

I had a good rummage through my collection today and took some size comparison shots so you can judge for yourself how my minis sit with other ranges, you'll note that a lot of these are hardly "new".

and to show it has always been a problem

Global Warming must be making the figures taller! Yep, that must be it.

Dan

Cold War Minis – thanks for the input. I won't comment again just yet, but I will say it's not really fair of me to just name your new figures. I think my disappointment got the better of me.

It's a fair point Guthroth and something that vexes us all, collectors and manufacturers alike, all I can do as a manufacturer is make a decision, be upfront about it and state it as clearly as I can. I'm glad you like the look of the minis, even if they are not to your preferred scale.

I much much prefer the honest labelling of 32mm than any other options, thank you for that decision!

The related bad labelling of 15/18mm is a peeve. Just tell me the actual size!

Looking at Cold War Minis's photo of the two soldiers, and given the length of a German rifle of the period being slightly over 4 ft., I guesstimate the two men are in the range of 6 ft 4-8 inches, and 5 ft 2-4 inches. Extremes to some extent, but not grossly so. Even a lesser spread of merely six inches difference would still be noticeable, yet not all that much different between "true" 28mm and "heroic" 32mm. In real life, we'd not bat an eye at such a height difference. It only matters on the tabletop because we want nice, even lines to make our armies pretty.

Once again it's the size of the rifle that counts. When I purchased some Tiger Miniatures Spanish American War figures, I needed to cut down their rifles to match with my Old Glory figures. The troopers them selves were only slightly larger and worked fine.

I am with Guthroth on this one. Really tire of the ongoing increase in size of figures. I cant stop the increase in size and it is Cold War Minis prerogative to produce figures of whatever size he wishes. It does not mean I am going to buy them. Most of my figures are true 25mm with few 28s. 32? Cmon man their is no justification for this other than a new size for figures. I am not a conspiracy guy but don't tell me that each increase in size is not a deliberate attempt to start a new scale so the producers do not have to compete with the older ranges.

I still find it funny I have to explain where the name for my business came from:

Scale Creep Miniatures

I did once have an idea for a "joke" range in which each new code was 1mm taller than the last. So your French center company would be 2mm and your 95th Rifles would be 63mm…..

I think it's also fair to say that most sculptors also prefer a bigger figure, as it is easier to sculpt, and provides a bigger canvas for their talents.

Never mind 25/28/32. The big issue is when are 12mm going to overtake some 15mm, and 18mm overtake 20mm?

The scale differences in 15mm are probably the greatest. I have some AB Romans that are virtually 20mm measured to eyeline, and some Peter Pig that are pretty much 15mm from base to top of head. That's a 25% variation.

Perhaps, instead of just making 32mm the new standard height, the new lines could have sculpts with some variety built in already within the same line (28-32mm). Just a thought.

Dan
TMP link

When DBA was first introduced I started building 15mm DBA armies. Even at that time the various lines of figures were not the same size. I have not paid much attention to 15nn ancients or any other eras in 15mm since that time. I assume scale creep will make 15mm about the size of the early 20mm stuff shortly if it has not reached that point already. The whole issue is very frustrating. I threw away quite a few "15mm figures" when building my DBA armies.

Really what the problem is is that the figures are measured by height and not by an actual scale. If a fixed scale was the case you could still have figures of various heights but the equipment would be (or should be) a constant size.

saran hits in on the head – most so called wargaming 'scales' aren't scales at all. No one can argue 1/96th scale – it either is 1/96th or it is not (minor variations notwithstanding in human – or animal – dimensions) but no one can claim 1/120th is also 1/96th nor is 1/87th equal to 1/96th.

But is there any point where the hobby switches over to scale versus "mm"? Not sure it is workable at this point. But it sure would have solved most of these problems.

Now, define N scale – it is 1:160. Oh, wait, is it 1 :144? Sort of depends on where you live or what you model.

A lot of so-called heroic 28mm figures are actually 32mm or taller – Reaper has a wide range of scale creep when you look at the miniatures within its ranges. But I have found that most 28-32mm figures are quite compatible on the table. I don't think you will ever get sculptors to adhere to some type of universal scale code. The very first set of figures I commissioned as 28mm were actually closer to 25mm, that was because the sculptor measured 28mm to the top of the head not the eyes. I had naively thought that everyone understood that 28mm meant that measurement to the eyes. Afterwards, I started sending sculptors I commissioned reference figures so they knew exactly the size of the miniatures I was after. But even after doing this you will get the occasional taller or shorter than average figure. Its something you have to keep a very close eye on

For me, it really spoils the look of armies to have a scattering of bigger figures who look like giants. Thus for periods I game in 15mm, the new fangled 18mm are out for me. I suggest be disciplined in purchasing and resistant to scale creep so as to encourage new manufacturers to be compatible with other long established lines in the period. Size standardization is what historical gamers need.

Well, this should be fun:

m.imgur.com/0QqADSo

link

Dan

Dan,
Yes, peole do indeed come in all sizes, but as I've said before, the weapons they carry do not.

I just ran into scale creep while working on my 2mm line. I did one iteration, thought it was pretty good, then began to work on the 2d iteration. On that iteration, I kept thinking, hmm, I'll just add a bit more detail here, a bit more there. Maybe some bigger hats…. But with every detail added the volume of the figures got bigger and bigger, untilI was looking at 4mm figures. That's when I realized how insidious scale creep is. It happens without you're even realizing its happening. I had to go back and correct it where i found it, but it cost me some money and some time.

So, I don't think it's on purpose.

Dear Guthroth

You write "We all know who started it, but has it become so common now that what is commonly referred to as "Scale Creep" is in fact deliberate marketing designed to discourage veteran gamers – who already have large collections – from buying into new ‘Cool' games aimed at ‘The Kids' ?"

I am completely baffled by this. I probably am not understanding it right. Why would scale creep discourage older gamers. Hasn't done so to me. I originally bought Surrens and Staddens, 40 years ago, which I still have and game with, and continue to buy from Tradition of London. At the time I was buying them everyone was going into 25mm minifigs and the like. Now 25's are all the way up to "heroic" 28mm which actually if you measure, are bout 30 and 32mm. Back then, the Surens and Staddens were called 30mm, but if you put up a TRUE 30mm S.A.E figure next to a Suren Grenadier, it was like a confrontation between Charles DeGaule and Micky Mouse.

None of this prevented me from buying what figures I wanted In my collection of 18th century figures and the Renaissance figures I probably have over 5,000 painted figures. They are 32mm,Surens and Staddens, old clunky 30mm S.A.E's 28MM from Dayton Painting Consortiums, figures from Greenwood and Ball, command post, almost every maker who ever threw something in the 18th Century, and -- yes,-- even some original dinky 25mm Minifigus! I keep the minis in the same unit, big units of 36 figures, and guess what--- NO ONE NOTICES!!!!! If I take up one unit of the "dinks" of true 25mm, and one of the huge 32mm Surens people say WOW look at that…" and they quickly say… "But when they are on the table top, you don't notice them.

So I don't see how your contention that they did th9s on purpose to keep out the older gamers is possible. It's certainly not working.

We buy what we buy we like what we like.

I really don't think its intentional.

Scale creep is in every period.

I can't be bothered sussing out the vendors. For example, I recently wanted to make wagon trains for my 18th century armies--- scratchbuilt. Did it. But horses would prove expenses. So I went to A.C. Moore and bought a huge pile of TOOB horses at a fraction of the cost it would take me from a model vendor. I needed 60 horses. I'm not going to spend $15.00 USD a horse for a draft horse with harnesss. I used the cheap plastic horses from A.C. Moore and cut the traces and collars from brass, lead and so forth. ARe they a little bigger than the magnificent Whalers and jumpers you get from Surens? Sure. No one knows.