Help support TMP


"Connection between the Cimmerians and the Celts! " Topic


10 Posts

All members in good standing are free to post here. Opinions expressed here are solely those of the posters, and have not been cleared with nor are they endorsed by The Miniatures Page.

For more information, see the TMP FAQ.


Back to the Ancients Discussion Message Board

Back to the Fantasy Discussion Message Board



748 hits since 3 Jun 2017
©1994-2017 Bill Armintrout
Comments or corrections?

Breton Supporting Member of TMP03 Jun 2017 12:40 p.m. PST

Connection between the Cimmerians and the Celts !

I do not think that it is not a hazard that the Conan of the hyborian world had this first name, howard had to be interested in the historical cimmerians …

Historical cimmerians are a people of antiquity, supposedly of Indo-European origin, perhaps related to the Iranian peoples, settled in Taurida and around the Sea of Azov before disseminating in the 8th and 7th centuries BC . J.- C. on all the circumference of the Euxine Bridge and especially in Asia Minor.

They are known in ancient Greek as Kimmérioi, which could come from Kimế, "end, edge, margin, shore": as an example, in the time of Ptolemy, the present Denmark was called Kimbrikế cheronesos, of the coast, of the shores "; In this case, their name would mean "those of the end / edge of the world".

But the Assyrian tablets mention a people called Gimirraya, and if they are the same, then the etymology might not be Greek.

In the "Kimris hypothesis", their names were compared to other denominations such as Kúmbrioi (Cumbria) given to the inhabitants of present-day Wales, Kímbrioi (Cimbrioi), Germanic or Celtic people rejected by the Roman general Caius Marius Near Aix-en-Provence, or the cities of Kumaïri (now Gumri in Armenia) and Kumế (Cymè in Italy), which led to the assumption of links between the Cimmerians and these peoples or places, but The phenomenon of "polynymy" (presence of the same denomination or of similar names, for several different peoples) is common in Antiquity, as Herodotus and Strabo testify: it is found, without being able to prove affiliation, Albans in Italy And in the Caucasus; Of the Iberians in Hispania and in the Caucasus and also of the Hibernes in present-day Ireland; Taurisci in Noricum (current Austria) and Tauris (present-day Ukraine); Of the Venetians in Armorica, in northern Italy, and in Germany (Wendes); Of the Volks in several places of Western and Central Europe …

And we could multiply the examples; This polynomy can be explained in some cases by a common meaning of some denominations (Cymbrioi, Cimbrioi and Cimmerioi: "those of the margins") but in most cases, it is Hellenization or latinization of the names of Peoples or places originally different, and coming from very varied languages, resulting in Greek or Latin ethnonyms very close phonetically, which originally did not have semantic relations, therefore ethnic.

The Cimmerians were a nomadic cavalry people initially reported in the Pontic steppe, north of the Euxine Bridge (today the Black Sea), as it would also be the case, after them and successively, Scythians, Sarmatians, Iazyges, Roxolans, Alans, Huns, Avars, Bulgarians, Magyars, as well as many Turkish peoples (Khazars, Petchenegues, Kipchaks, Tatars …).

The Cimmerians being the most ancient, the written sources (of the passages of Herodotus and Strabo, Assyrian tablets, etc.) are very succinct.

This people has been brought closer to the Pontic Neolithic civilizations revealed in the same geographical perimeter by archaeological excavations: we are here more in the protohistory than in history, and almost nothing is known about their religious life, on which the information comes from Burial mounds containing representations of anthropozoomorphic deities, centaurs, chimeras, dragons ourobores.

These artifacts show similarities to those of the Sintachte and Srubna cultures in eastern Europe, and to the culture of Novotcherkassk in present-day southern Russia.

Only linguistic research can provide some additional data on their associations.

In ancient times, the Chesoney ("peninsula" in Greek) was the Crimea.

The Cimmerians probably settled there as early as 1200 BC, in the territory that Herodotus called the "Cimmerian Bosphorus."

About 700 BC, the riders of the steppes underwent the climatic crisis of the so-called Subatlantic period, and the Cimmerians were subjected to the pressure of the Scythians, who were themselves subjected to that of the Massagetes.

The Cimmerian nobility tried to resist, but the people eventually dispersed, partly heading towards the center of Europe, another towards Anatolia.

Herodotus reports that there were still cimmerian walls in the Scythian country, and that a region is called Cimmeria, which would be the Crimea.

The main known difference between Cimmerians and Scythians concerns art, dominated by geometrical symbols among the Cimmerians, while the Scythian art is mostly zoomorphic.

Presumably because of the climate of the so-called Subatlantic period, the Greeks of Antiquity called them "Peoples of the Night".

Homer writes that their country is "covered with clouds and mists" that "the rays of the sun never pierce": Ephorus of Cymé attaches this legend of eternal night to their dwellings in caves connected by long galleries dug in the volcanic rock.

The Subatlantic period has been correlated with massive eruptions in Iceland, with injection into the atmosphere of ash hiding the Sun for several years, and the eolian deposit of the same ashes which are interspersed between loess strata.

Probably victims of the death of their herds and bad harvests, the Cimmerians had no choice but to move towards more southern regions, less affected by climatic disturbances.

About 708 av. They cross the Bosphorus and / or the Caucasus and establish a colony in the Sinope region.

They then live by piracy and pillage, and continue their progression to Assyria.

They begin by attacking the kingdom of Urartu, in the region of Lake Ourmia.

King Rusa I and his son Argishti II did not manage to contain them and suffered heavy defeats. The Cimmerians were then credited with a reputation for formidable warriors throughout the region.

Arrested in Cappadocia by Assarhaddon in 679 BC. (Or -695 BC), they headed for the kingdom of Phrygia, where they beat King Midas, then to Lydia, where they battle about 660 BC. BC against King Gyges who must seek the help of Assurbanipal whose death in 644 BC. AD leaves them free.

The Cimmerians then invaded the country, sacked the city of Sardis, burned the Temple of Artemis at Ephesus and devastated the countryside.

Between 650 and 630 BC. AD, they are reported in Cappadocia, Cilicia and Pontus.

After the death of the King of the Cimmerians Lygdamis, about 620 BC. There are fewer and fewer fighting relationships.

So it would be the second last king of the historical cymmers who called Conan (Bizarre is not it?), would have died in battle against the Scythians in Mysia in 630 BC and not the last one as D.Hutchby and S.Clark write!

Or Conan and Lygdamis would be the same king dead in battle in 630 or 620 against the Scythians ???

Or in front of the Lydians, for according to the Greek authors, the Lydian king Alyatte II drove out the invaders and put a definitive end to the Cimmerian threat around 610 BC. AD

Nevertheless in his fictions, the cimmerians would be very distant ancestors legendary of the Irish , Conan is a Breton first name not a Irish first name !

So there were also five noble Bretons so called Conan:

Conan Meriadec, legendary king of Brittany;
Conan I of Brittany said the Tort († 992), Count of Rennes (970) and Duke of Brittany (990-992);
Conan II of Brittany (1030-1066), Duke of Brittany from 1040;
Conan III of Brittany called the Gros (1095-1148), Duke of Brittany from 1112;
Conan IV of Brittany, known as Le Petit (1138-1171), Duke of Brittany (1156-1166);

Bizarre is not it?

Personal logo Cacique Caribe Supporting Member of TMP03 Jun 2017 12:55 p.m. PST

Very interesting indeed!

And it's just as plausible as any other explanation I've heard so far, seeing how difficult these kinds of connections can be proven when the evidence is so scattered, both in distance and time, and when most of the written record is from external sources.

Thanks for sharing!

Dan

Breton Supporting Member of TMP04 Jun 2017 1:20 a.m. PST

What is bizarre is that the second last king of the historical cymers who would have died in battle against the Scythians in Mysia in 630 BC and not the last one as D.Hutchby and S.Clark write, is called Conan!

Hors Conan is a Celtic name that is only worn by the Bretons,it's strange …

Breton

Personal logo Cacique Caribe Supporting Member of TMP04 Jun 2017 2:32 a.m. PST

Lots of people migrated to/through Crimea. Maybe that's why the Ukraine has such a nice genetic mix.

Dan
PS. Add to this the Huns, Avars, Bulgars, Magyars, Pechenegs, Slavs, Rus, Khazar, Mongols, etc…

picture

Crazyivanov04 Jun 2017 7:20 a.m. PST

And Italians, Georgians, Circassians, Tartars, Turks, and Cossacks. I think we just might have a finalized list. Oh and Volga Germans!

Samnite308 Sponsoring Member of TMP04 Jun 2017 7:35 a.m. PST

The public library of Cross Plains, Texas in the 1930's must have been really something . . .

Personal logo Cacique Caribe Supporting Member of TMP04 Jun 2017 5:03 p.m. PST

CrazyIvanov,

And I bet we've forgotten many others who may have left behind genetic souvenirs.

Dan

Breton Supporting Member of TMP04 Jun 2017 11:34 p.m. PST

It would be interesting to know which language the Cimmerians spoke of. I think that only a few personal names are known from the Assyrian documents. "Teushpa" does not seem particularly Gaelic. The last Scythian languages are Indo-European, but far from the Celtic languages of Western Europe, which is normal since the Scythians are very different from the Celts and but also of the Cimmerians.

Alas R E Howard ransacked his historical sources of material for his Hyborian world and did not indicate them. He's an awesome figure for us guys – I think Howard inspired the WRG-Ancient Game Tournament style, pitting the Greeks against the Crusaders against the Aztecs against Zulus, because they all fought with sharp sticks…

Personal logo Cacique Caribe Supporting Member of TMP06 Jun 2017 6:54 p.m. PST

Gold torcs would seem like an obvious link to something they shared in common with other peoples in Scythia:

TMP link

Dan

Breton Supporting Member of TMP06 Jun 2017 11:49 p.m. PST

Yes the Torcs are found in the Scythian, Illyrian, Thracian, Celtic and other cultures of the European Iron Age from around the 8th century BC to the 3rd century AD.

For the Iron Age Celts the gold torc seems to have been a key object, identifying the wearer as a person of high rank, and many of the finest works of ancient Celtic art are torcs.

The Celtic torc disappears in the Migration Period, but during the Viking Age torc-style metal necklaces, now mainly in silver, came back into fashion.

But the Torc styles of neck-ring are found as part of the jewelery styles of various other cultures and periods.

And what proves that the Cimmerians have borne it?

The cimmerians are not Scythians …

Sorry - only verified members can post on the forums.