"Grenadiers à Cheval" Topic

Art

Rigau's diatribe is out there for all to read and see. If people wish to take his words verbatim then so be it but I do hope they read his words in there entirety and not just those repeated above.

You say that I hate him. If you think that, then that's entirely your prerogative but I'm sure you wont hate me for laughing at such an accusation.

The rest of your post about what I have said, meant or alluded to, needs itemising so could you please number each of your questions that I need to answer.

Cheers,

Paul :)

As to deserting the Empereur …

De Brack says that *after* all the horse guards took up the positioned behind and in echelon from the battery of guard reserve foot artillery, that they then – at the walk – retrograded again to fold in the ground at a point aligned to and 500 paces to the left of the foot guards in square. At this point it is essentially dark and it is not clear if his narrative relates the situation for both the heavies and the lights, or only for the lights.

There ensues a debate as to what to do. The lights resolve to exit – at the walk – to the left rear aiming for the road to Quatre Bras. That is pretty much abandoning the foot guards and the Empereur.

If the heavies had done otherwise they would have had to move from their position on the left end of the echelonned formation to a position covering the foot guards. I think if they had done this they would have more or less run into the lights – or at least have been close enough for de Brack to see them.

So I am pretty much of the opinion – repeat: opinion – that the heavies exited the field much as the lights did. At the walk and more or less abandoning the foot guards and the Empereur.

Note, however, again per de Brack, that these regiments were reduced at this point to 100-odd men each still mounted and formed.

"Ils avaient donné" as the French say – they had made their sacrifice already.

Art

Vivian said this about those guns you mention. And remember, we don't know what was contained in Siborne's letter or what he ‘Siborne' was alluding to within it.

"Unless as it is possible may have been the case that the Attack of Infantry to which Gnl Halkett refers was the Attack of the 10th under Howard & that Cambronne after being captured by the man as I have described was again captured by Gnl H. when tottering [?] to the rear. But [word unclear] in this case where he afterwards found his 12 or 14 guns in full play I am totally at a loss to conceive because if I swore a very oath [?] I should say after the 10th charged the French square near la belle Alliance I do not recollect having perceived a shot from a French gun – but in truth every part of a field of battle must differ markedly & so must the account of every one engaged & still all may be fully persuaded of the truth of the statements they make"

Vivian's account penned to Lady Vivian on 23rd June 1815 page 147-150 letter no 70.

"I led the head of my Brigade diagonally across the ground for the left body of cavalry. The Enemy, seeing this, opened a fire upon me from the square, and with grape from their guns, and I suffered some loss. But every man was at his post. We gave them a cheer in reply, and I instantly ordered the regiments to form line on their front half-Squadrons. They did it to admiration. I led the 10th against a body of Cuirassiers and Lancers, much superior to them in force on the French left, and having seen them fairly in, the Enemy flying and falling under their swords, I rushed to the 18th and with them attacked the Cuirassiers and Chasseurs who formed the French right in support of the square and guns. They were routed by the intrepidity and gallantry of this Regiment, and the artillerymen cut down at their Guns.

From this moment, not another canon shot was fired. By this time the remains of the 10th had again formed. The 1st Hussars still in reserve determined that the glory of ending the day should end [?rest] with the Regiment of my royal master, I ordered the 10th to charge the square of Infantry still steady and close to us. This they did most gallantly, and as gallantly was the attack received.

The 10th cut down the French in their ranks, some few of them escaped under the cover of a hedge, but from this time every man was in retreat, and eventually every man was taken during the pursuit which lasted as long as we could see, so long, indeed, until from actually having cut down some Prussians, we were obliged to desist and give them the pursuit."

So Vivian's account clearly states that French artillery and cavalry was encountered and overcome with the artillery captured and cavalry 'flying', then the 18th attacks a square, then after reforming, the 10th attack a square and at some point, Halkett comes on the scene and captures Cambronne.

Paul :)

Does his prior experience strike you as very non-mythic for an NCO of 1/1 grenadiers? You would think these guys were big hulking older men of over a decade of combat experience – gray wiskered, covered in scars and decorations, etc., etc. But here we have a noble ex-vélite garde d'honneur of less than 2 years campaign experience who had just celebrated is 21st birthday.

Hi Le Breton,

I'd understood that there were two forms of sergeant in the guards by this point: youngsters en route to a commision and the grizzled veterans that actually ran the show.

Regards,

Hi Janner!

Interesting. Thank you.

The Russians had much the same : actual NCO's and young noble officer aspirants holding NCO rank – but they differently named these ranks and the aspirants had typically different assignments.

"According to Reille

(Rapport du General Reille, Commandant le 2e Corps d'Armee)

"Le soir, au moment de la deroute, les trois divisions du 2e corps se retirent en assez bon ordre jusqu'a la nuit. Mais, a genappe et aux Quatre-Bras, tout se mela, et, dans l'obscurite, il ne fut plus possible de consever aucon ordre."

He states that the Allied cavalry were between them and le 1er Corps…so I must suppose they had to find another way out…not seen by all…

This is also validated by both le 3e regiment et 2e leger"

While I could find Reilles report, I find no source for 3e de ligne – nor 2e leger – validating Reille, I checked the regimental history of 3e – but no success.

The Russians had much the same : actual NCO's and young noble officer aspirants holding NCO rank – but they differently named these ranks and the aspirants had typically different assignments.

I suspect that they also enjoyed differing assignments in the guards and that the guardsman could tell them apart

von W,

Is the regimental history of the 3rd online anywhere?

As an extra for this thread and to break up the textual posts, here is a splendid miniature portrait picture of Sir Hussey Vivian c.1807 that you would not have seen before.

Paul :)

@janner

+1 !

@Whirlwind

Yes, I got it from google books – also good places to check are gallica, or

archive.org

vonW,

I can't find it – which search terms are you using?

link

also

link

I try to come to grips with de Bracks account, his position was at the left of Haye Sainte – and in case I look at this map, this area was also the scene of the attack of the Guard.

The futile charges of the Guard cavalry must have had happened before this attack of the infantry of the Guard.

all I could find was this

²D'abord, ce sonst quelques bataillons qui sortent par notre gauche, et see présentent en colonne devant la droite angloise et ses intrépides Écossais embusqués dans un bois."

Also along with those battalions the brigade of carabiners à cheval attacks and gets destroyed by fire power.

Later

Nous marchons ainsi jusqu'à ce que nous retrouvions á notre gauche les débris de la vieille Garde à pied, qui, comme nous, est extrême arrière-garde.

I would have assumed that the old Guard would have been on his right – when falling back and reforming from their futile cavalry attacks – or is he facing backwards?

I did find more on Guyot, he wrote two different accounts about his fate.

vonW, thanks very much, got it.

interesting…

link