"Grenadiers à Cheval" Topic

Paul,

The de Brack is not from "Outposts ….". It appears more like a French version of "Siborne Letters" : a request to participants to write up their experience of the battle.

The "not press home" was alluding to *after* earlier combat from which de Brack says the horse guards retrograded and then reformed.

It is of course better to read the whole thing, not my summary. That's why I linked the text. But maybe not everyone knows French. Hence the summary.

Pontecoulant : Souvenirs Militaires – Napoléon at Waterloo 1815, Paris 1866

page 329
(all transcription errors are mine)

"les quatre escadrons de service, seule cavalerie intacte que l'on eût sous la main, chargèrent les hussards prussiens. Mais dans ce moment, les deux brigades de cavalerie anglause qui arrivainet d'Ohain pénétrèrent par la chaussée de Charleroi entre le général Reille et la garde. Les désordre devinet à son comble surtout le champ de bataille : L'Emperuer n'eut que le tems de se jeter dans un carré den la garde."

In case we believe Pontecoulant, there was no intact cavalry other then the duty squadrons – hence no regiment of grenadiers à cheval walking away – to escape.

Why I don't believe that the GaC walked away and stayed formed?

There was a rout and panic of the whole French Army, nobody could stem the tide, all units engulfed were washed away – sooner or later, even 1er bat. CaP – had only 300 men under arms the next day.

In case the GaC kept such a splendid order, they failed their mission to counter charge and safe as many French soldiers as possible.

I will re read de Bracks account and also looking forward to the publications of Paul Dawson on this matter, who seemingly is the only one reading the archives in Paris.

G'Day Gents

"There was a rout and panic of the "WHOLE" (my emphasis -please do not take this as shouting) French Army…"

Not according to le Rapport du général Lhéritier, commandant la division.

…"Les pertes éprouvées par le 2e Dragons sont immenses, mais il a fait retraite en bon ordre, emportant son aigle."

…'The losses suffered by the 2e Dragons are immense, but they retreated in good order, carrying thier eagle.'

Rigau was part of that regiment which was formed next to the Garde when the army was in ruins…holding the line…which would explain how Rifau could have been the last body from his regiment or division on the field when retiring in good order.

Best Regards
Art

"who seemingly is the only one reading the archives in Paris"
Yes – it often seems so.

The exploitation of archives is really much more broad in Russia – an almost "wave" of post-Soviet researchers have been doing this for last 15 years or so. For the French, Memoire des Hommes and some genealogists move slowly along imaging the matricules and état-civils, and there is Paul Dawson and an occasional LCV release of a some new letters or manuscript and little more.

As to slendid order ….

Reading in the de Brack, the "spedidily ordered" at the end were on the order of 100 troopers per regiment shuffling off into the night on the road to Quatre Bra., including his own. None of the regiments were in any way "wiped out to the last man" – the matricules are on-line and most manged to get paid off in the Fall when the army was disbanded. That leaves quite a few that were not heavily wounded and not "majestically" withdrawing at the walk. Presumably, quite a fewaving had their horses injured or killed and getting away on foot as part of the general rout.

And as to British cavalry not pressing home toward the end, if there was a 26 or 32 or 36 [???] piece battery of the Guard reserve foot artillery which the horse guards took sheler behind (echelloning to the left and rear from the battery), any "pressing home" would be presented a perfect short-range enfilade opportunity to the heaviest field pieces and the best gunners in the French field army. Again presumably, it was just this effect that was intended by so placing the horse guards.

G'Day Hans-Karl

What does this mean…please

…"seule cavalerie intacte que l'on eût sous la main"…

Hense in your words…"In case we believe Pontecoulant…"

I do…I believe what Pontecoulant states…there was nothing at hand, and close by to give orders to…

The Duty Squadron was the only body that was whole…intact…at hand to give orders to, deal with what is called "danger immanent" situation.

Just because a body is not intact…doe not mean it cannot fight…

…and how far away did de Brack state the Guard Lancers were…defiantly not at hand to give immediate orders to…I think you are adding to what Pontecoulant states…putting words that are not there…

Best Regards
Art

Pontecoulants observation has to be seen, as all other sources in context.
His work is available like on google books for download.

He seemingly had the opinion that there wasn't enough fighting units which could be employed tactically to conduct an orderly withdrawel. What was at hand did not succeed in stopping the rout.

So far, and taking on the accounts dibble did provide, all French tactical units at the main road – which initially maintained a tatcial formatin were successfully broken by the Allies.

I did not state that the GaC were wiped out to the last man, no heroics indeed.

G'Day Hans-Karl

I read them…that is why I said you were putting words in his mouth…

Before you mentioned:

"…there was no intact cavalry other then the duty squadrons – hence no regiment of grenadiers à cheval walking away…"

"There was a rout and panic of the whole French Army, nobody could stem the tide, all units engulfed were washed away"

so now you change your mind to:

"He seemingly had the opinion that there wasn't enough fighting units which could be employed tactically to conduct an orderly withdrawel. What was at hand did not succeed in stopping the rout."

My Old Friend…this I agree with you on…

So you do not believe de Brack…why is that?

Do you feel that the 2e Dragons did not form a line with the Garde and retire…but were engulfed and fled with the rest?

Best Regards
Art

Great discussion gentlemen!

Le Breton, Art and von Winterfeldt.

I can't read French I have made it no secret in the past. but as you say, It would be better if I could; but alas….

I'll Post lots of what Dawson had to say about the Grenadiers a Cheval tomorrow. As you may know, Dawson loves his 'Gods' to the point that he has spent a fortune in depicting one of them. I do hope that some of his quotes brings a fresh look to what we have been discussing.

Paul :)

"So you do not believe de Brack…why is that?

Do you feel that the 2e Dragons did not form a line with the Garde and retire…but were engulfed and fled with the rest?

"

I have to re read Brack, then I will form my opinion.

I don't deny that some units, not engulfed in the collapse at the main road, could retire in some tactical fashion.

OK I read it again in Sabretache, highly interesting, I admit I find other information much more interesting like, he still writes in old fashion Ancien regime style – anglois – instead of anglais, also that an eagle of one of their "new" regiments was captured – he thinks the 44e but was re captured again. So "new" regiments, interesting remark.
He classes Guard CaC and Lanciers as light Cavalry and both units were down to 150 troopers alltogether, when they retreated, so basically – a tenth of their strength – wipe out is not far fetched.
As to whether the GaC walked off the battle field, and how many, I cannot say reading Brack, he once saw them formed and walking, but when??
Other interesting things to ponder at, their formation is inversed, junior regiments at the right.
They charged the squares, according to Brack five times, without any success whatsoever, and I would class them as exhausted, and not fit to be used as a tactical formation any longer.
And – oh yes, seemingly Bracks remarks induced the Guard to charge.

As a slight aside:

Major Beaux of the 1st regiment of line infantry in writing about the operations of the 2nd corps in conjunction with the Imperial Guard. Letter dated 27th June 1815 and published in journal de Rouen Mardi pp 33-4

"At four hours in the evening, we heard a strong cannonade coming from our right flank and were told it was the corpse of Marshal Grouchy. The disorder began in the rear of our army, and those with malicious intent cried ‘save yourselves'. However many regiments fought on with great effort. Between six and seven hours in the evening we occupied the major part of the English positions; soon after a regiment of Cuirassiers and the Grenadiers a' Cheval of the Imperial Guard passed through our lines probably to take up different positions; but their retreat made a strong impression on the spirit of the soldiers"

Which shows just how much of a moral effect a unit can have upon another.

******************************

Guyot, From Carnets de la Campaign.

"The Guard Heavy cavalry made one last desperate attack to extricate the Guard infantry. As the Grenadiers and Dragoons surged forwards, General Guyot was wounded. He says:

As I prepared to execute the third charge I received a shot in the chest and a shell splinter to the left elbow; the horse I rode was killed in the same instant. I then gave my command to General Jamin, major of the regiment. He executed the third charge I had prepared, and was immediately killed. My division then immediately withdrew from the melee under the orders of Lieutenant-Colonel of Dragoons. I retired to the rear exhausted with fatigue and losing much blood"

De Mauduit of the Imperial Guard Grenadiers a' Pied notes that General Guyot led the four service squadrons…."

******************************

Paul Dawson says he is unclear as to how many charges in support of the beaten final attack there was by the heavy Guard cavalry which clashed with Dutch-Belgian and British cavalry. Maybe the initial charge by the Guard heavy cavalry was followed up by a second charge that included the service squadrons as related by Guyot, De Mauduit and other witnesses from the Guard cavalry, but Dawson also says that the incidents may also have been part of the same even.

He goes on:

‘'The eyewitness testimonies reproduced below are not clear on this point and are contradictory regarding which cavalry of the Guard charged….I have no doubt that the Guard cavalry advanced, certainly the Empress Dragoons and Grenadiers a' Cheval, and they may have been supported by service squadrons. The efforts of General Guyot to extricate the Guard are described as follows in 1821:"*

‘General Guyot at the head of the division of heavy cavalry of the guard wanted to try with one last charge, but his squadrons were overwhelmed by numbers. General Jamin, Major of the mounted Grenadiers, fell dead, and several other officers of all ranks. General Guyot was wounded by two shots, and his division, and the rest of the French cavalry, soon abandoned the battlefield.'

*Victories conquetes, disastres, revers et guerres civilies des Francais de 1792-1815. Vol 21

There are many more entries as to the Grenadiers a' Cheval's final charges but none are definitive as to them being the service squadrons or both.

As for Rigau of the 2nd Dragoons, not only has he mentioned that no allied unit dare attack him as he (the last to leave the battlefield) walked of the battlefield and slept in a building just off it, it seems he also ‘with just a squadron, entered the town of Senlis, shouted 'Long live the Emperor' "cast into terror" a whole corps of Prussian cavalry .

I read de Brack's quote via a translation from Digby Smith pers comm. 2010.

Paul :)

Please tell us that the translation of Rigau was done with Google translator…at least we now understand how myths get created ;-)

No! Rigau wasn't, It was translated from Souveniers des Guerres de l'Emperor

link

'Nos cris de vive l'Empereur ! jetèrent l'épouvante parmi les Prussiens : et la nuit nous surprenant'

"Our cries of the Emperor! Threw terror among the Prussians,"

Paul :)

But what happened to:

"cast into terror" a whole corps of Prussian cavalry" ;-)

You really hate Rigau so much that when you first attempted to translate him…you were certain that is exactly what he said…

I like your first version better ;-)

Interesting how Guyot's "I received a shot in the chest and a shell splinter to the left elbow," becomes "General Guyot was wounded by two shots." No, he wasn't.

What would a third or fourth party make of that? "Guyot fell victim to allied musketry"; "Guyot, at the head of his men, was the target of concentrated musket fire from the squares…"

Consider on how wide a tangent one author's slight misrepresentation can carry others; a modest deviation that might lead who knows where?

Why should he hate Rigau, read more about his souvenirs – the usual propaganda of the Guard conducting an orderly retreat instead of the collapse – on the main road, compare to Brack, who meets with the debris of his unit a confused and a bewilderer Napoléon in the moon light.

G'Day Hans Karl

I read Rigau…and he reminds me of Harvey Keitel in the Duelist… ;-)

Rigau wasn't in the Guard…he was quite proud of being a Dragon.

Also at around 20:00 Guyot lead the service squadrons. Not both the Grenadier a Cheval and the service squadrons.

Archives Nationales AF IV 1180 box 349 folio 55 -according to Paul Dawson at least.

Guyot, From Carnets de la Campaign….which tome?

The Guard Heavy cavalry made one last desperate attack to extricate the Guard infantry. As the Grenadiers and Dragoons surged forwards, General Guyot was wounded. He says:

As I prepared to execute the third charge I received a shot in the chest and a shell splinter to the left elbow; the horse I rode was killed in the same instant. I then gave my command to General Jamin…

I think the sequence of events are out of place…how many charges did Guyot execute in an attempt to "extricate the Guard Infantry" ;-)

Le général Guyot, à la tête de sa division de grosse cavalerie de la garde, voulut tenter une dernière charge; mais ses escadrons furent accablés par le nombre. Le général Jamin, major des grenadiers à cheval, tomba mort, ainsi que plusieurs autres officiers de tout grade. Le général Guyot fut blessé de deux coups de feu, et sa division, ainsi que le reste de la cavalerie française, abandonnèrent bientôt le champ de bataille…

Yes Rigau was a chef d'escadron in the 4r dragons, in case I got it right, but he is able to see everything, even what happened in the main road, the battalion of Elba (what battalion does he mean, it did not exist any longer in the Guard in 1815, 1er bat. 1er GaP?? Who kept their proud eagle in cover – till the end of the battle?) – is uncovering their eagle, in case he was on the left of the Guard cavalry – how can he all see this?
His unit conducted 12 charges (wow – I am impressed).

About Guyot – ok, seemingly sa division the grosse cavalry de la Garde was onr squadron of GaC and Guard Dragoons, each.

This is in line with Gourgaud – who stated that the service squadrons of the Guard – sooner or later – caesed to exist as tactical units and were engulfed in the common rout at the main road where there was pandemonium.

Art

"general Kellerman retired with his regiments, artillery and wounded on Paris. before arriving at Senlis, he gave me two squadrons, the vanguard of my brave regiment, for two hours ahead of the troops of his cavalry corps, instructing me to press my march in order to forestall the enemy, and keep me there until his arrival. I learned, half a league from this city, that the enemy had been there several hours. i immediately sent an officer to the general for orders; he sent me word to go, and try to remove the vanguard that was there; he assumed it was weak, when it was a whole corps. I left a reserve squadron with orders to await the arrival of the general; I set the others at a gallop, and entered Senlis without worrying about a camp that was outside. Our cries of Long live the Emperor! cast terror among the Prussians and the night surprising us all of a sudden it was difficult to see what was happening.

Arriving at the outskirts of Senlis, which I entered by the main street, I had to stop to find out the whereabouts of the enemy camp. The horsemen who had fled before us, and who had thrown themselves in the street or alleys adjacent, believed that in this moment they had to stop us by force and began to fire on the flanks of the squadron…."

Just what you wanted yes! Which includes the phrase 'cast terror' but also another, 'fled from us'. They go together with his ‘I retired last from the battlefield' and ‘always retired at a walk, without the enemy daring to come near us'…Seems Rigau and his 2nd Dragoons were the real invincibles, in fact he must be the original Major Sharpe. Perhaps he and his six intrepid evaders from Senlis were the equivalent of Harper, Hagman, Harris, Dodd, Cooper and bradshaw

I don't hate Rigau, I only hate the tangible, but his hyperbole smacks of someone who hated the fact that he failed and his army and Emperor were beaten and beaten badly. His face saving rants do nothing to assuage this fact.

There is no real evidence whether the main GaC charged as part of the rearguard or not. If they didn't then it can only be that they deserted them.

DEar Colleague,
"About Guyot – ok, seemingly sa division the grosse cavalry de la Garde was onr squadron of GaC and Guard Dragoons, each."
I think not. This would mean that the old guard heavy cavalry division commander, the grenadier's regimental commander (Jamin) and the dragoons commander "lieutenant-colonel" Hoffmayer were all with the service squadrons. I think Guyot commanded the "division" of 2 "regiments".

We have really only de Maudit to say that the service squadrons were co-located with this division. And I am not too sure he was correct for the period at the end of the battle.

==========

the "le bataillon corse de l'île d'Elbe" (mostly ex-35e légère) became for the Cent Jours le 1er bataillion du 1er régiment de voltiguers de la jeune garde.

Without wishing to get more caught up in minutiae than necessary, what is the relationship between "Le général Guyot fut blessé de deux coups de feu" and "General Guyot was wounded by two shots"? Which came first.

My guess is that the latter is Paul Dawson's translation of the former, an eyewitness statement as it would appear, one which only vaguely reflects Guyot's own more specific account of his wounding: a ball, be it musket or caseshot, in the chest, a shell splinter in his arm, and a third projectile- presumably one of the above three categories- killing his horse.

Wherever he was, it was certainly a hot place to be.

@Le Breton

Thanks for the input, but why division de grosse cavalerie and not brigade?? Brack clearly uses the word brigade for the two "light" regiments of the Guard.

Rigau I think does mean the Guard Ile de Elbe unit

G'Day Mr. Flanker

The question I have is not about the wounds Guyot received.

But was it while charging squares…

or

when he was attempting to extricate the Guard infantry…

In other words when is this event taking place

‘General Guyot at the head of the division of heavy cavalry of the guard wanted to try with one last charge, but his squadrons were overwhelmed by numbers. General Jamin, Major of the mounted Grenadiers, fell dead, and several other officers of all ranks. General Guyot was wounded by two shots, and his division, and the rest of the French cavalry, soon abandoned the battlefield.'

Hans-Karl…you yourself mentioned it interesting that de Beck wrote using old terms…and a brigade de cavalerie legere was used to express a division…just as a brigade de flanc can be a small body or large body en potence…ou appui. Marbot with his small composite body was a commander of a brigade flanc at Waterloo.

Best Regards
Art

In case Guyot did command the two heavy regiments, then I must come to the conclusion – "but his squadrons were overwhelmed by numbers" that a majestic walk away in good order – walking – is very difficult to believe.

In case the rest of the French cavalry abandoned the battle field – most unlikley in any order there they made a last ditch effort to cover the retreat -but failed against the odds.

So – the two heavy Guard cavalry regiments – exhausted and overwhelmed.

To be nit picky Brack did not use old terms but old language were -oi was pronounced differently then in the French Revolution and later.

There were two charges made and Guyot was about to make a third charge…but it never happened because he was wounded

Hence he was successful in two charges…if against allied cavalry

-if they had lost a charge then he would never have thought about executing a third charge…if against allied cavalry

where does it say a body then charged them after Guyot was wounded…no where…absolutely no where…

It was then realized that the allies were too numerous…thus they abandoned the field of battle.

But again…when was Guyot wounded…charging squares or at approximately 20h00

As of yet…you can not even prove if Guyot was with the duty squadron or his division…

What you believe or assume has nothing to do with fact…produce solid evidence and I will then agree with you…

What about le bataillon corse de l'île d'Elbe…did they flee in a disordered manner…

Gourgaud, général : Observations sur l'ouvrage de Général Gourgaud, intitulé : Campagne de 1815, Bruxelles 1819

« (…) tout fut perdue par un moment de terreur panique. Les escadrons même de service, rangés á côté de l'Empereur, furent culbutés et désorganisés par ces flots tumultueux, et il n'y eut plus d'autres chose á faire que de suivre le torrent. »p. 88
« (…)la vieille garde, qui était en réserve en fut assaillie, et fut elle même entraînée. Dans un instant, l'armée ne fut qu'une masse confuse, toutes les armes étaient mêlées, et il était impossible de reformer un corps. » p. 88

Again…

Produce solid evidence…and not a generalization of events that have vague descriptions that leave everything up to interpretation…especially those with an agenda…

I could counter argue that Gourgaud writes the following

Malgré ces pertes, cette valeureuse cavalerie a constamment gardé la position qu'elle avait prise aux Anglais, et ne l'a abandonnée que quand le tu multe et le désordre du champ de bataille l'y ont forcée.

Au milieu de la nuit et des obstacles qui encombraient la route, elle n'a pu elle-même conserver son organisation.

…In the middle of the night and the obstacles which encumbered the road, they could not keep their organization…"

But again Gourgaud is giving a generalization.

And this…

Les escadrons même de service, rangés á côté de l'Empereur, furent culbutés et désorganisés par ces flots tumultueux

This which is actually on page 85 tells us nothing…

Did the duty squadrons have to break down to depart as a single squadron like the 2e dragon…?

You still have not shown facts…produce solid evidence so that I can believe you

Art, as an observer trying to keep up with this discussion,

I offer the thought that if Guyot was wounded and his horse killed by projectiles, allowing for the chaos of battle, does that not suggest action against the allied line rather than an engagment between cavalry at a later point in the battle, when sabre cuts would be more likely- particularly when engaged by British cavalry?

Would British artillery have deliberately engaged French cavalry with spherical case, for example,when their own cavalry were engaged in a melée?

G'Day Mr. Flanker

I agree with you…and that is how I read it…that is why I brought it up…and continued to do so…

Guyot was wounded during the charging of the British squares…

Hence '…the rest of the French cavalry, soon abandoned the battlefield…' -they were retiring back to their original lines.

And not as previously posted that "The Guard Heavy cavalry made one last desperate attack to extricate the Guard infantry. As the Grenadiers and Dragoons surged forwards, General Guyot was wounded." (-at approximately 20H00)

Best Regards
Art

"why division de grosse cavalerie and not brigade?? "

Two explanations :
1. Guyot was using the term "division" in the generic sense, his half of the guard cavalry.
2. Guyot and Lefebvre-Desnoëttes were généraux de division (lieutenants-généraux le Cent Jours) and so by courtesy and because they were guards formations I suppose, one would call their brigades as "divisions" (they are usually so noted), and de Brack was being more tactically preicse

Victoires, conquêtes, ….. (1831)
"Le général Guyot, à la tête de sa division de grosse cavalerie de la garde"

Commentaires de Napoléon
"la division de grosse cavalerie de la Garde, sous les ordres du général Guyot,"

Also in Jomini's Atlas (1821)

Girois in his memires puts the phrase in Napoléons mouth in 1814, when berating Guyot for losing artillery attached to his division.

You can find the same for Lefebvre-Desnoëttes

==============

"Les six compagnies, formées de volontaires, furent recrutées moitié dans les grenadiers, moitié dans les chasseurs de la Vieille Garde. Mais dans la formation nouvelle, les uns et les autres ne furent plus dénommés que «grenadiers»."

"Le Bataillon de l'île d'Elbe"
Capitaine Jean Lasserre
Bulletin de la Société Belge d'Études Napoléoniennes No. 22, 1994
page 9

Decree of 8 April on the organization of the guard:
"ART. 57. The companies of the Old Guard, which accompanied us to the Island of Elba will take the head in the regiments of their arms"

"As the Grenadiers and Dragoons surged forwards, General Guyot was wounded."

Playing devil's advocate, could these cavlary units not have attracted the attention of allied artillery before they had made contact with the allied cavalry?

G'Day Mr. Flanker

Do you mean at the end…around 20h00?

when they were supposedly going to do a third charge against the allied cavalry?

It happened right after the second charge against……which body…cavalry or squares?

Apologies. Misreading. I missed the quotation marks in your last.

42flanker

Re Artillery support:

Sir Robert Gardiner troop of 6pdrs that were attached to Vivian's Brigade were very active in support during the final advance. First Lt. William Ingilby of the troop wrote:

"A short while afterwards the infantry in our front, which had continued steadily to advance firing along their whole line, halted and ceased firing and we then perceived the French both those immediately to our front and those on other parts of their position scampering off in full retreat. The Brunswick Oels broke into open columns and Sir H. Vivian passing through the intervals the cavalry pushed forward and were presently charging the fugitive masses in every direction, while we with the guns alternately unlimbered and advanced, bringing them to bear on every possible occasion until it was too dark to fire without danger to our own cavalry, which continued to press upon the rear of the French and their retreat into complete event and confused flight."

Paul :)

First you state that according to the diagram you posted…the Grenadiers a Cheval are located and defeated…where it is marked as position O

You emphise this with the following: "I'm sure that had they been cuirassiers, Bacon would have labelled them thus."

"…this diagram in his first letter of the movements mentioned in the extract of the second, above (I have circled in blue, the 18th Hussars and in Red, the cavalry? they attacked."

So this is where Guyot executed his two charges and defeated allied cavalry twice and then was wounded?

But wait…now you change the location where Guyot charged twice and was wounded…?

"The Guard Heavy cavalry made one last desperate attack to extricate the Guard infantry. As the Grenadiers and Dragoons surged forwards, General Guyot was wounded.

(which puts them in the area of M and T)

"Guyot then says:"

"As I prepared to execute the third charge I received a shot in the chest and a shell splinter to the left elbow; the horse I rode was killed in the same instant. I then gave my command to General Jamin, major of the regiment. He executed the third charge I had prepared, and was immediately killed. My division then immediately withdrew from the melee under the orders of Lieutenant-Colonel of Dragoons. I retired to the rear exhausted with fatigue and losing much blood"

This is your show…you are here to convince us that everything we have read before is a myth…then tell us exactly where Guyot was wounded…

1…position O
2…position M & T
3…or perhaps during the charge of the British squares…

Was Guyot with the duty squadron or his division…?

Produce solid evidence so that all of us can believe you

G'Day Gents

According to Reille

(Rapport du General Reille, Commandant le 2e Corps d'Armee)

"Le soir, au moment de la deroute, les trois divisions du 2e corps se retirent en assez bon ordre jusqu'a la nuit. Mais, a genappe et aux Quatre-Bras, tout se mela, et, dans l'obscurite, il ne fut plus possible de consever aucon ordre."

He states that the Allied cavalry were between them and le 1er Corps…so I must suppose they had to find another way out…not seen by all…

This is also validated by both le 3e regiment et 2e leger

There is absolutely no doubt that the French Army was in ruins…but to say that the entire army was engulfed in the common rout…where is the proof that all battalions and cavalry bodies melted away on the field of battle?

Again we need solid evidence so that all of us can believe…Is there any Allied account that makes Reille's rapport faults ?

Best Regards
Art

Having been away for some time, it has been fascinating to catch up on this thread

So this is where Guyot executed his two charges and defeated allied cavalry twice and then was wounded?

I missed the bit where he defeated any Allied cavalry, could someone point me to that please?

I was a little concerned about what de Mauduit, a sergeant in the 1er bataillion du 1er grenadiers à pied, might have actually seen of the grenadiers à cheval.
So I checked and maybe he was mostly reading about them in "Victoires, conquêtes …." ???

"Le général Guyot, à la tête de sa division de grosse cavalerie de la garde, voulut tenter une dernière charge, mais ses escadrons furent également accablés par le nombre.
Le général Jamin, major des grenadiers à cheval, tomba mort, ainsi que plusieurs officiers de tous grades. Le général Guyot fut blessé de deux coups de feu, et sa division, ainsi que le reste de la cavalerie française, durent bientôt abandonner ce champ de carnage"

Histoire des derniers jours de la Grande armée, ou Souvenirs ….
Hyacinthe-Hippolyte de Mauduit
Dion-Lambert, 1854
link
page 426 & 427
[originally self-published in 1848]

"Le général Guyot, à la tête de sa division de grosse cavalerie de la garde, voulut tenter une dernière charge, mais ses escadrons furent également accablés par le nombre.
Le général Jamin, major des grenadiers à cheval, tomba mort, ainsi que plusieurs officiers de tous grades. Le général Guyot fut blessé de deux coups de feu, et sa division, ainsi que le reste de la cavalerie française, abandonnèrent bientôt le champ de bataille."

Victoires, conquêtes, désastres, revers ….
Vol. 13
Panckoucke, 1836
link
pages 310 & 311

Hyacinthe-Hippolyte de Mauduit de Kervern
Né à Moëlan en Finistère le 13 mai 1794 de Gabiel-Hippolyte de Mauduit de Kervern, capitaine au régiment royal de marine, et de Angélique-Anne Mahé de Berdouaré.
Élève au Prytanée de Saint-Cyr puis de La Flèche. Il est incorporé le 5 juin 1813 au 3e régiment de gardes d'honneur où il est nommé fourrier le 24 juillet suivant. Il participe à la campagne de Saxe, puis de france où il est blessé d'un coup de lance à la cuisse dans l'affaire livrée près de Reims, le 15 mars 1814. Mis en congé avec le grade de sous-lieutenant honoraire de cavalerie. Le 11 novembre 1814, il entre en qualité de sergeant au coprs royal des grenadiers de France. Durant les Cent Jours, il est affecté au 1er bataillon du 1er regiment de grenadiers à pied de vieille Garde. Lors du licenciement de la Garde, il retourna dans sa famille. Le 26 novembre 1815, il reprend du service comme sergent-major au 5e régiment d'infanterie de la Garde royale, où il est nommé adjudant sous-officier le 1er avril 1816. Le 2 octobre 1816, il est nommé sous-lieutenant à la légion départementale du Finistère. Le 3 juin 1820, il repasse sous-lieutenant au 5e régiment d'infanterie de la Garde, où il est promu lieutenant le 31 mars 1825 puis capitaine le 11 août 1830. Démissionnaire le 12 février 1831 pour refus de serment au nouveau roi, il est devenu écrivain militaire. Napoléon III l'envoya en mission dans le caucase pendant la guerre de Crimée. Ayant été nommé consul de France en Colombie à Santa Marta, il touve sa morte le 13 octobre 1862 à Sainte-Marthe dans la Nouvelle-Grenade.
Il marié le 7 septembre 1823, à Paris, avec Louise-Philippine-Julie Magnieunin (1785-1860, vueve de Camille-Carillon Jordan, membre du Conseil des Cinq-Cents, puis député de l'Ain en 1816, faisant partie de l'opposition constitutionnelle) dont un fils unique, Jules-Hippolyte de Mauduit (1825-1876), militaire comme son père.

I want to point out, that I did not state that all French units routed, but those involved and engulfed in the general collapse and panic on the road to Charlerio – certainly did, exception 1er bat. CaP, Duuring had 300 men under arms still the next day.

The more on the French left, the more likley to get away in a more or less good order.

Even Reille admits – that he couldn't maintain order and cohesion for long and at Quatre Bras and Genappe his corps was also engulfed in the common rout.

G'Day Mr Whirlwind

Your right…it did not happened any more than two charges made by Guyot at:

1…position O
2…position M & T

[Guyot]"…chargea trois fois, sans canon, les masses énormes du centre de la ligne anglaise que soutenait plusieurs batteries d'artillerie. Dans la deuxième charge, Guyot eut son cheval tué, reçut plusieurs coups de sabre et resta au pouvoir de l'ennemi. Délivré par ses intrépides grenadiers, ses blessures ne l'empêchèrent pas d'effectuer une troisième charge…

Trop nombreux pour l'étendue du terrain, tous ces escadrons se gênent mutuellement, se choquent, s'entre-croisent, brisent leurs charges, confondent leurs rangs. Les charges, toujours aussi ardentes, deviennent de moins en moins rapides, de moins en moins vigoureuses, de moins en moins efficaces, par suite de ce désordre et de l'essoufflement des chevaux qui, à chaque foulée, enfoncent dans la terre grasse et détrempée. L'atmosphère est embrasée ; on a peine à respirer, « on se croirait à la gueule d'un four. » Le général Jamin est tué, le général Donop est tué, le général Delort est blessé, le général Lhéritier est blessé, le général Guyot est blessé, le général Roussel d'Hurbal est blessé. Edouard de Colbert charge le bras en écharpe. Blessés aussi les généraux Blancard, Dubois, Farine, Guiton, Picquet, Travers, Wathiez. Le maréchal Ney, son troisième cheval tué…

The charges were made against squares and not as Paul would have us believe…

Hans Karl….

we are not talking about later…but on the field of battle and according to you:

"There was a rout and panic of the whole French Army, nobody could stem the tide, all units engulfed were washed away."

Best Regards
Art

@Le Breton

Yes indeed Mauduit was a file closer in an infantry battalion of the Guard, still when you read his account about the battle – it makes you wonder where he all had been at once

Mauduit
Mauduit, Hippolyte de, Capitaine : Les Dernier Jours de la Grande Armée ou Souvenirs, Documents et Correspondance Inédite de Napoléon en 1814 et 1815, tome 1er Paris 1847, tome 2nd Paris 1848
Both volumes can be downloaded on the internet, for example google books.
Mauduit was in 1815 sergent in the 2nd battalion of the 1st grenadiers and by such must have had a limited experience what went on in the battle. In 1835 he founded the periodical "La Sentinelle de l'Armée" and did consult a lot of published works – including Prussian ones, like that of Wagner to make his write up. It includes without any doubt his own experience but also a lot he learned from personal correspondence, using other sources and hearsay. In my view a very bad book which is seemingly intended to glorify Napoléon and his Guard and blaming the marshals and generals for the loss of the 1815 campaign, so it has to be used very critically.

G'Day Gents

Since it is fact that this is wrong..that it never happened:

"The Guard Heavy cavalry made one last desperate attack to extricate the Guard infantry. As the Grenadiers and Dragoons surged forwards, General Guyot was wounded." -or the two charges made…

I suppose there is a third location where Paul will find the Grenadier a Cheval now…

Since Paul states that De Brack is wrong…this is still his show…I am willing to learn as everyone one else is…where they are now located.

We are also told that Vivian could see everything on the field of battle by Paul…and if the Grenadier a Cheval where positioned where De Brack says they are…then Vivian would have seen them…

But…

Is it not true that Vivian states that General Halkett is wrong and there were no guns where General Halketts says a battery was captured…

But according to De Brack's drawing and statement…they reformed behind the battery…which supports General Halketts claims…

I admire Vivian…but I know that he could not see everything on the field of battle…and it doesn't take a Terrain Analyst to figure that out…

Best Regards
Art

"so it has to be used very critically."

Always true, especially (as here) where the author tries to tell the story of the battle or campagne, uses unknown sources (except where modern text-based search finds the copy/paste), and weaves his own personal story into the mix.

Does his prior experience strike you as very non-mythic for an NCO of 1/1 grenadiers? You would think these guys were big hulking older men of over a decade of combat experience – gray wiskered, covered in scars and decorations, etc., etc. But here we have a noble ex-vélite garde d'honneur of less than 2 years campaign experience who had just celebrated is 21st birthday.

Hello Art,

[Guyot] "… three times charged, without cannon, the enormous masses of the centre of the English line, which was supported by several artillery batteries. In the second charge, Guyot had his horse killed, received several sword wounds, and remained in the power of the enemy, until delivered by his intrepid grenadiers; his wounds did not prevent him from carrying out a third charge.

Too many for the expanse of the ground, all these squadrons were interfering with one another, shaken, crossing each other, breaking their charges, disordering their ranks. The charges, always so ardent, become less and less rapid, less and less vigorous, and less and less efficacious, as a consequence of this disorder, and the breathlessness of the horses which, at each step, are pushed into the slippy and soggy earth. The air is on fire: it is difficult to breathe, "one would have thought oneself inside an oven". General Jamin is killed, General Donop is killed, General Delort is wounded, General L'Héritier is wounded, General Guyot is wounded, General Roussel d'Hurbal is wounded. Edouard de Colbert has his arm in a sling.

It doesn't sound much like these charges succeeded. I'm not sure I'm quite understanding your meaning or tone here, though.

Could I suggest that someone draws up a grid table and types in the principal competing accounts in parallel columns to create a comparitive timeline, episode by episode. It usually pinpoints the irreconcilable inconsistencies which can all can then debate objectively.

It's what I would do but I am not on top of the subject and don't have the time.

G'Day Whirlwind…

They didn't succeed…your absolutely right, because the charges that Paul is trying to say happened did not happen.

He has taken an event (a written passage) from the French charging squares and tried to use it to work with his idea of what transpired on the map he provided us with

First at…position O

then at…position M & T

Paul then takes a section from First Lt. William Ingilby account to substantiate his story.

You and I know that investigating an event require impartial research…what is found…good or bad…we report the truth…

Mr. Flanker…you are perfectly right…but it will never happen as long as the debate is not objective…or has an agenda…

Years ago I informed a staff ride Instructor I could not understand how an author back then could possibly know the emotions of the men (Napoleonic era) he was writing about…and he said…historical accuracy and emotional highlights was accepted back then…

So Paul doesn't hate Rigau…but considered what was written an insult to the British Army…

"I only hate the tangible, but his hyperbole smacks of someone who hated the fact that he failed and his army and Emperor were beaten and beaten badly. His face saving rants do nothing to assuage this fact."

Mr. Flanker…is this how you see Rigau…

I think what more than likely what happened was…it was dark…

There is only one person on a crusade on this thread…and it has gone beyond wrapping a flag around oneself…it has become an obsession that has destroyed all impartial research…

Best Regards
Art

Hold on Art! I have given different scenario's and accounts about the cavalry actions between Vivian's brigade and that of the guard rearguard. Read what I posted about that Bacon letter and map again.

The 18th mentioned charging the GaC. I asked where the main regiment of the GaC disappeared to, especially as Vivian's whole brigade advanced over that very same ground where Barton observed them (the GaC) walking.

Vivian's brigade advanced on a 300yard front to the left of Barton's 12th who were the left but rather more forward, of Vandeleur's brigade. The GaC were observed by Barton as being to is left front at no great distance, in fact, within musketoon range as some GaC fired at his squadron.

The right squadron of the 1st hussars KGL almost clashed with Barton's squadron but rode past, advancing against the French cavalry, artillery and Guard infantry in the following formation:

To the left was the 18th hussars. The right, 10th Hussars. Reserve, 1st Hussars KGL.

you say that the GaC disappeared into a fold in the ground thus Vivian's brigade didn't see them. would Vivian's brigade have passed through that same fold in the ground?

I'll say no more about Barton because how I see it, it's an account that is full of contradiction and misinformation.

What I am saying is a myth is what has come about due to a Barton letter to Siborne, and Siborne with his 'post obsevation' embellishment.

And as for Guyot. I posted what Paul Dawson wrote but I also posted that (As Dawson notes) no-one really knows what units of the GaC engaged in the rerguard fight. But if the main body of the GaC did walk off the battlefield, then they would have deserted la Garde et la Empereur.

Paul :)

Bless you all. No one has called anyone a charlatan…no abuse…well very little anyway.

The end result is a really expert exchange of views based on the limited evidence we have, combined with commonsense.

None of this matters to some of us. There are us sad folk who want to know how many buttons they had, on the lapels, that they did not actually wear, on the only battle that counted. The rest…this Austerlitz, Borodino, Leipzig thing was just a prelude.

Well at least we know they did not wear the Royalist cuirassier jacket with the waist belt…don't we….?

G'Day Paul

Is it not true that Vivian states that General Halkett was wrong and there were no guns where General Halketts says a battery was captured…?

A simple yes or no will work…

De Brack also states they were formed up along side this battery that Vivian said did not exist…which supports General Halketts account…

Please provide French accounts proving that the Lancers and all the Garde were not where De Brack states they were positioned.

If Vivian did not see the battery, then he did not see the Lancers formed next to it with the chasseurs, dragons, and grenadiers in echelon.

Barton saw the Grenadier a cheval to his left as they were en colonne serre walking off the field of battle to form up en echelon…with the rest of the Garde. No misinformation nor contradictions if you use everyone accounts and simple terrain analysis…

If the Grenadier a Cheval were with the Garde cavalerie…how does that make them deserting the Emperor.

What factual evidence do have you that they deserted the Emperor…and were not en echelon with the Dragon Gardes…could you please provide it…

Who was adjacent to, and where was the 2e Dragons positioned according le Rapport du général Lhéritier, commandant la division?

If you do an impartial research and it is found that additional evidence changes events which are based on facts and not on supposition…I think we will all agree with you…

But until then…

Best Regards
Art