"Are you buying the 8th Edition 40K boxed set?" Topic

So some previously turned-off people are coming back into the fold while others remain steadfast in never looking back no matter what GW does. Just what you might expect.

Yup, and that will only work until GW ticks those who do come back off again and with GW's Track Record that is very likely to happen.

Yup, and that will only work until GW ticks those who do come back off again and with GW's Track Record that is very likely to happen.

Compared to the beginnings of wargaming, GW is expensive.

There was a time when they weren't but that was around 22+ years ago and before they went for screwing over customers.

But yes they are trying to get back to that era but trying is not going to do it.

They really need to address their overprice miniatures, which they are not since even now they are looking for ways to gouge their customers.

Figures aren't overpriced. People are buying them, ergo they are not overpriced. They are buying them more now than they were three years ago.

They are right in line with the prices of every other manufacturer of high quality figures.

GW has never screwed me over. I've been playing their games for 22 years now and buying their figures for 30. I have not one miniature in my collection from them that can't be used in their games.

I was a GW hater. I have not spent money with GW for over 20 years and I will be buying a set. I find the true marines interest me as I always hated the minime marines.

GW has never screwed me over

So you were never:

An EPIC 40K player
A Man-O-War player
Had any Squats
An Eldar player

Oh this list could go on since GW has been screwing their customer for nearly 20 of those 22 years.

I have a whole 2nd edition Eldar army. I have epic armies of Dark Angels, Eldar and Orks. I was never screwed over by GW.

So you can go into a GW store and play EPIC these days?

Probably not, I doubt they have the terrain for it. I can go to my local gaming store and play Epic though, or I can play it at home.

Can you go into a Mantic store and play Kings of War?

If not is Mantic screwing you over?

Can you go into a Privateer Press store and play Warmachine?

Is PP screwing you over?

Can you go into a golf store and play golf?

Or Dicks and play baseball?

So you were never:

An EPIC 40K player
A Man-O-War player
Had any Squats

--I quit playing Epic because all my adversaries ran off shortly after 3rd came out (not run off because 3rd came out). I boxed most of mine up, sold some. Who knows, I may never play again, just because.

--Man-O-War had run it's course, product wise. We were still playing it long after it was discontinued. Still, the minis were mostly butt-ugly- and I owned one or more box of everything but the Elven Dragon Riders. I was far more pissed off that GW chose to totally ignore Blache's concept drawings in the first place, which were thousands of times better than the the low-detailed, boxy crap they put out. I have sold off most of mine, but still hold on to a few, specifically my dwarves & skaven.

--And I still have my squats, and have fielded them countless times since they were axed just after 2nd dropped. The notion that having fantasy equivalents of dwarves is silly and no one anywhere would ever want to buy any in 40k is, of course, utter - but we all know that by now. And like orks- oh, I'm sorry, "orks"- are SOOOOOO different. But there have been multiple new sheriffs in town since that mess, and staying sore with the new administration is somewhat pointless. And considering their current track record, squats may come back in some form.

"Can you go into a golf store and play golf?"

Classic! That is a one line argument win!

Also the above pictures were taken with someone playing squats, not just at a GW store but at the 40K event at Warhammer Fest last weekend.

So not only can you play with your squats at a GW store you can apparently play with them at the global headquarters.

Heresy!

Nope.
I'm not interested in either army (I have Blood Angels and Imperial Guard) and if the rules really are going to be free (is this still true?) 8th edition is definitley a try-before-buy-maybe-never-buy proposition.

Still, I'm open to the possibility that the rules will be good and my armies will come out of hibernation. Still won't be buying the starter set though.

As for the squats above it should be noted that the player wrote the names of proxy orc units on every single base. Not gonna do that to my squats.

Still, if ever get mine finished there's no reason they can't serve as Imperial Guard or Astrafukadoodle.

So they were not Squats but actually being played as Orks.

Right. Doesn't count.

"And considering their current track record, squats may come back in some form."

Yes, they'll be mutated by Chaos, grow long tails and jaws, and be renamed "Skaven in Spaaaace!"

(j/k! ;-)

if the rules really are going to be free

Well there is the pickle since yes like their Fantasy Space Marine game (Age of Sigmar) they will put out Warscrolls/Datasheets along with about 5-6 pages of rules that you could use.

But they would be that really not that good.

So you will have to buy all of the upcoming Codexes if you want to be capable of playing against someone else.

As it looks now 8th Edition is going to be more of a bucket of dice game than 7th Edition.

"But they would be that really not that good."

Given your track record of being wrong about everything (including saying that the world isn't round), this bodes well for the new version of 40K.

The core rules are going to be free. You will have to buy army lists. Army lists will cost you $25 USD and you will get something like 4 armies in a hardback index. Codexes will come later but you won't need them.

With updated models you will be able to buy the chapter approved at the end of the year.

"So they were not Squats but actually being played as Orks."

They are being played as squats. They are using some ork stat lines.

"Right. Doesn't count."

How does it not count? Haters are always saying stupid like you can't use your old models. Clear you can.

Wow. Big marines. Guess the older players have been complaining that they are too small to paint an the younger ones keep choking on them.

If all the marines go this way, its pretty obvious it is being done for financial reasons. We will have to wait and see.

Question is, if they do, who's next? Orcs will be looking pretty weedy. Rippers will be getting stepped on and the great unclean one wont be looking that great. Both the eldar, and the necrons will be very weedy and tau will be singing the munchkin's songs.

Bad time to get into this game. Who knows what's about to occure.

PS: To answer the question. No.

How does it not count? Haters are always saying stupid Bleeped text like you can't use your old models. Clear you can.

Nothing has ever stopped me from using mine. But that's still not the same, and IMO, it is a poor compromise. They shouldn't play like orks. If that makes you happy, fine. But it's like saying, "I have a wonderful girlfriend, she is awesome and thinks I'm swell, but she won't be seen in public with me."

And once again, don't lump me in with some other(s?) here. After a quarter century of making GW staff voodoo dolls, I am finally on board with this. That doesn't mean I am hunky-dorey with each and every aspect. I am not going to play devil's advocate for every decision they've made since the 90's. I can't imagine what fool would want to.
And I don't think my attitude towards the current state of affairs in any way qualifies as "bitching".

I am trying to keep a positive attitude, at least until Kirby escapes Elba island.

It isn't the same as having their own army list, I'll grant you that, but it is quite a different thing from having a $300 USD army sitting in a box that you can't use, which has never been true, or even one that you can't use at a GW store, which was alleged.

I don't know what the current Ork list is like for 7th edition, so can't speak to that, but previous Ork lists have possibilities for the Orks not playing like Orks if you took a certain Boss or set of troops.

It would be impossible for them to keep all of the races and creatures they have produced over the years in production. The squats apparently were one that didn't make the cut.

It is far better for a company to cut lines that aren't making a profit than to continue to lose money on them and go out of business all together.

It is far better for a company to cut lines that aren't making a profit than to continue to lose money on them and go out of business all together.

But GW never even tried, not one teeny bit, to make squats viable in a competitive format. That is just a stupid excuse.

The Rogue Trader list was an over-costed mess. The leaflet army list that shipped with the 2e box was just a cut-down version of the WD111 one. And that's as far as that went.

Less than half of the produced miniatures remained in their catalog for a few years, not enough to do much with even then. A mere handful of reinvisioned test model miniatures were produced around this time, I'm not sure if any even shipped out of the UK. They are worth big bucks on Ebay now, if you are luck enough to find them.

GW claimed no one wanted the faction, but they never bothered to make them something anyone not already attached to the squats would clamor for. They were NOT losing money on squats. Having a few odd packs lying around, a brand that you expend no effort to either promote or revive, is hardly a drain on a company. Hell, most minis companies, if not ALL other metal casting ones, don't think much of dragging the molds back out once in a while to refill a product code. That's the way most of them work, anyway. Mind you, plastic minis are very different in the matter, but this is years before that would be a factor.

There was no "losing money". I don't need anyone to tell me that they made the money back on the molds they made, and then some.

Who the was asking for tau, anyway? Are they losing money there?

There is more to it than just the mold cost. There is stock, asking retailers to clear space on shelves for the models and so on, the biggest cost being spending the time and effort on redesigning the new models that would be required each time a release of them was scheduled.

There is also an opportunity cost. When you release a range there is a certain amount of profit you expect to make. Releasing a range that makes $30,000 USD vs. a range that makes $100,000 USD is an opportunity cost of $70,000. USD

Apparently a lot of people were asking for the Tau, in the sense that there were existing markets out there selling Manga style power armour troops. GW saw the potential in people wanting something like that and jumped on it.

If online pictures of armies are any indication of the popularity of a range the Tau are doing pretty well.

I can't imagine that GW, responding to customer demands the way they have over the past couple of years from Blood Bowl, to plastic HH figures, to Genestealer Cults (something else that people said would never be back) to Necromunda to true scale Space Marines would balk and bringing out a range of Squats if they thought they were worth the investment.

They have the numbers. I'm sure they do market research. They decided that they weren't or at least haven't been so far.

There is more to it than just the mold cost. There is stock, asking retailers to clear space on shelves for the models and so on, the biggest cost being spending the time and effort on redesigning the new models that would be required each time a release of them was scheduled.

But GW didn't work like that back then. The product lines were less directed, and marketing less aggressive. They were still trying to sell you a few miniatures, not the "Games Workshop Hobby". Development costs for a small, focused faction (like genestealer cults!) was nothing like it is now.

They could have relaunched the squats as a subfaction of the Imperial Army / Guard, like they stated out in RT. Put out a few minis, published the rules in WD. That direction would have very much fit the MO of GW at that time. With minimal cost to produce and test. Then go from there.

Apparently a lot of people were asking for the Tau, in the sense that there were existing markets out there selling Manga style power armour troops. GW saw the potential in people wanting something like that and jumped on it.

Popular or not, IMO, they are an ill-fitting addition to the 40K universe, but to each his own. If they sell, fine, that's the bottom line. But either way, GW *MADE* them fit, which shows there is damn sure a place for prexisting space dwarves faction.

I can't imagine that GW, responding to customer demands the way they have over the past couple of years from Blood Bowl, to plastic HH figures, to Genestealer Cults (something else that people said would never be back) to Necromunda to true scale Space Marines would balk and bringing out a range of Squats if they thought they were worth the investment.

I don't doubt, having seen what's happened in 2017, that they might not bring space dwarves back in some form. But they've got a lot of work ahead setting up everything around 8th edition, who knows what we'll see in a year or so.

Again, there's a new sheriff in down. But, product viability aside, I don't doubt for one second that much of the squat opposition was due to petty assholery on the part of certain GW bigwigs. And that's indefensible.

No. I'm generally not a huge fan of the Space Marines, and while I guess the Plague Marines look nice, I don't have any Nurgle stuff. And I don't think the Primaris Marines would really fit in well with the normal marines I have.

It is far better for a company to cut lines that aren't making a profit than to continue to lose money on them and go out of business all together.

As mentioned, that really wasn't what was done.

The problem with the Squats is that they were basically stunty Hell's Angels. Worked OK for Rogue Trader, not so much with Second Edition and the more formalized armies.

Tough to make an actual, formal army around drunken bikers. Tough enough that GW gave up on the idea. (Personally, I'd be playing Squats as Counts-as Chaos cultists backed with Marines)

The problem with squats was that the development of the armies back then was apparently tied to someone wanting to take on the project and develop it. OR, maybe nobody thought they would sell. Nobody liked the squats enough to push for them. The drunken motorcycle riders concept was just not a very good background compared to the rest of the 2nd edition. I am hoping that they expand upon the Demiurge information that has already been released in some of the books.

I still don't see where the "drunken bikers" notion has become the totality of the squat image. You certainly aren't referring to the WD111 that revamps squats as a distinct culture. Even the guild bikers was only a part of the army.

And REINVISIONING a faction is on them. Don't go telling me that with all their marketing wisdom, that know 100% what will and will not sell. GW has made some HORRIBLE decisions through the years. They're not done yet. I give you the weekly White Dwarf.

GW was making crazy decisions are recently as a year ago. Who here would disagree with that?

I think the weekly White Dwarf was great. I started buying them again when they were weekly.

The magazine had a nice focus on whatever was new right then. The information was all pretty up-to-date. You bought the issues that were directly relevant to you and most of the content in it was about what you were interested in. They had some fantastic game material in most of them, like 40K rules for Genestealer cults well before the GSC 40K release and plenty of neat scenarios and stuff.

I think they have been making almost nothing but solid decisions since they released AoS. I'm not going to say that they didn't make any mistakes but most of the decisions have been very good and most of the products they have released have been fantastic, both in terms of quality and value.

Jervis stated several different times that nobody in the studio took interest in writing a codex for the squat faction, due to the stupid name, the drunken biker imagery, etc. So they never made it past the 2nd edition black and white book of units. I had a squat army from 2nd edition (played by a friend mostly) with exo-armor guys, the plastic squats, squat pirates, and bikes. I sold it a long time ago. Those miniatures were pretty uninspiring even back then. I am hoping they bring the squats back as Demiurge or whatever, with a new line of miniatures and their own vehicles, so they can be a complete faction.

I think the weekly White Dwarf was great. I started buying them again when they were weekly.

They hijacked a time-honored publication to make a weekly ad that costs $4. USD And less than two years later, changed back. Brilliant!

Once a month is enough. The sheer cost and logistics of putting out a weekly 'magazine" could not have possibly made it worth the effort. And, I've yet to encounter a B&M store that didn't HATE them. Most have scads of them collecting dust.

Note that I have picked up a few fairly recently; My FLGS sells them half price, with serious volume discounts. I take them with me when I travel, they're good to flip though when I'm relaxing in a hotel. Fine when cheap, plus, I'm taking them off my guy's hands.

But they were a burden on retailers. Maybe some didn't think so, but I doubt they were a significant percentage.

And then there was Warhammer Visions.

As to squats, fine, change the name. Rework the look. At least we now have a GW that doesn't say, "don't be stupid! You don't want THAT, you want THIS."

Again with the drunken bikers.

I am not buying the new box, since I'm not really interested in super marines or death guard. Well, I have as much death guard as I want.

What was the last one? I bought the one with Dark Angels and chaos marines. Was that the last one?

There were two since then, not new editions but new boxes that essentially were starter sets.

One was Blood Angels vs. Tyranids

The other was Death Watch vs. Harlequins.

It is far better for a company to cut lines that aren't making a profit

Funny because they cut EPIC completely and it was bringing in around 20% or their profit.

Sure that last set of rules for it were bad but they have cut things that were making profits.

As for Squats is funny that Mantic Games seem to got them to work.

But no I am never going to be buying the 8th Edition box set.

Am I going to buy a starter?

No. The chaos figures do less for me than the statics of the 2nd ed box. The ubermarines I don't hate – but they'll be available by themselves down the track if I do ever want them, so the impetus for me to get the starter box isn't there.

That said, the last starter set I bought was for 3rd ed.

The monopose plastics from 2nd ed the last few haven't done much if anything for me.

But I also haven't bought anything new from GW for over 4 years. I stopped playing their game of "one-up the other armies each month" back in 5th ed.

My GW model purchases have been restricted to 2nd+ hand older metals where I find them. They get used for other games, though.

"But I also haven't bought anything new from GW for over 4 years. I stopped playing their game of "one-up the other armies each month" back in 5th ed."

You know that is a myth, right? There actually is no such thing as "codex-creep." It is an artifact.

If you take any two codexes published in the same year or same edition, a year or so after they have been published and play them against each other they will be relatively balanced as far as that goes.

Some are broken, of course, but not in any kind of linear way.

Also lets put this malarky about Epic being killed to bed:

TMP link

If you want to play with your Epic models you can still do so.

We don't all have to slavishly follow the rules laid out for us by GW like Mithmee does.

"They hijacked a time-honored publication to make a weekly ad that costs $4. USD USD And less than two years later, changed back. Brilliant!"

Well it ran for 131 weekly issues; 52 weeks in a year makes that over two and a half years so you're a little off there lol. Not that I'm complaining, I much prefer the monthly format myself.

"An EPIC 40K player
A Man-O-War player
Had any Squats
An Eldar player"

I played both Epic and Man O'War and enjoyed them both, though the wheels had come off Man O'War towards the end so I'm kinda glad it ended when it did (still have all my minis though!). Epic I was playing that just a few months ago, all my minis still seemed to work okay and GW Stormtroopers didn't kick down the door to my FLGS and confiscate my army so maybe I escaped their drone surveillance for another week?

I'll admit I didn't have any squats, never got into them, but Eldar? They were some of the first 40K figures I painted; besides your never-ending rant about the price of Dire Avengers how exactly were they screwed over? Eldar have been cleaning up the top tables in tournament after tournament the last few years. I'd hardly call that screwed over.

Mithmee can't figure out how to work the shuriken catapults.

The Eldar armies that have been cleaning up in those tournaments were mostly Mech-Dar.

Rush forward with your Wave Serpents unload your Fire Dragons and shoot.

Just how many actually field a ton of Guardians?

Very few if any.

Why?

Simple unless you had a ton of Terrain on the Table (not very likely) Footdar just cannot cut it when most of your troops have short range weapons (I.E. 12 inches).

So if you could fire that an opposing unit they are within range of charging you which would be a death sentence for most Eldar units.

how exactly were they screwed over?

Well lets see:

First they (GW) took the Las Gun away from Eldar Guardians, this weapon did allow them to shoot out to 24 inches if need be. Sure not a great weapon but Eldar Guardians were no longer allow to have them.

Second at the same time they reduced the range of the Shuriken Catapult from 24 inches down to 12 inches and made this the only weapon (other than pistols) that Eldar Guardians could have.

Third also at the same time they change the movement from 4 inches per model to 6 inches. So Eldar troops were changed to have the shortest infantry weapon in the game that if a unit was within range it meant that your Troops were going to get charged.

Oh and Eldar Guardians are not the greatest in hand to hand combat and even a small Squad of 3/4 Assault Space Marines was going to tear them to pieces.

It got to be so bad that Eldar players were taking the smallest two units of Troops because they sucked big time.

Sure GW did give Dire Avengers back 6 inches on their Shuriken Catapults because no one was using them. They quickly became the go to Troops choice for Eldar along with Jet Bikers thus the doubling of their price by GW.

So Eldar Players moved over to Mech-Dar because they still had great vehicles and certain Eldar units were killers if you could get them in close.

Thank God he didn't collect Squats also, we would never hear the end of it.

Aww, Eldar can no longer have lasguns and Mithmee couldn't play with his poor Guardians with shuriken catapults anymore because GW "nerfed" them with their 12" range. Boo hoo.

For that, Mithmee will attempt to dissuade people from playing 40K as his life's mission.

Take that, GW!

4 words: Battle Focus, Combined arms. Guardians were NEVER intended in the lore or in the game to fight alone, unsupported.

I'd much rather keep the 12" catapults with bladestorm than use a pathetic 24" flashlight. No idea how 8th will change battle focus though. Also it's funny how shuriken catapults will be able to shave off vehicle wounds in 8th thanks to the -3 AP on to-wound rolls of 6.

Sure GW did give Dire Avengers back 6 inches on their Shuriken Catapults because no one was using them. They quickly became the go to Troops choice for Eldar along with Jet Bikers thus the doubling of their price by GW.

DAs got their range boost in 4th edition. The infamous DA repack occurred in 6th edition. I don't think GW waited 2 editions to stage a cash grab on the improved DAs.

Back to the original topic, I do not want to buy the 8th edition box, but I may just to remain current. I have not bought any 40k starter boxes since 3rd edition. I intensely dislike the 8th edition rules but I don't feel I have anything to gain by rage-quitting the GW hobby again like I did between 3rd and 5th edition.

Besides, I'm pleased with the direction of the Horus Heresy game, and plan to continue building my XIII and XVII Legion opposing armies.

And Horus Heresy will continue to use 7th, which is nice since I can keep my templates. Fortunately HH remained true to the lore.
So 8th for fun gaming 40k whilst HH will still keep that early War vibe.

We are probably sticking with 3rd for HH gaming but we'll see when we try 8th. If we like it enough then I'll probably just use that for HH gaming.

I'm thinking we will almost certainly use 8th for our Prospero gaming as 7th is clunky with psykers and it doesn't necessarily translate that well into 3rd. So far none of our games have been super-psyker heavy as we have had one or two characters and the squads just have special rules.

That will change when I order Magnus though. We will see.

We are probably sticking with 3rd for HH gaming but we'll see when we try 8th. If we like it enough then I'll probably just use that for HH gaming.

We're thinking the same in our group. I imagine that unit cards will be produced quite quickly by the "aftermarket" for HH/Legion units anyway. They're all just various flavours of Space Marines after all ;-)

Cheers

w.