| Tango01 | 27 May 2017 1:06 p.m. PST |
"A military flail is a medieval weapon consisting of a short handle attached to a chain, at the end of which is a metal ball. This is not to be confused with a two-handed variant, often also called a flail, which derives from the threshing implement of the same name. Varieties of the one-handed version have multiple chains or spiked heads. They have appeared in a range of medieval movies and books, and they are held in the collections of museums like the Metropolitan Museum of Art. Only problem is: they never existed. Despite the weapon's popularity in pop cultural depictions of the Middle Ages, the flail was almost certainly an invention of the imaginations of later people…"
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| Cacique Caribe | 27 May 2017 1:10 p.m. PST |
I love how sure they sound there. So absolute and confident.I bet someone is gonna find one now, and debunk the debunker. :) What's the saying? Absence of evidence is not exactly evidence of absence? How many things are known only from written references because none of the originals have survived? Dan |
| Coyotepunc and Hatshepsuut | 27 May 2017 1:21 p.m. PST |
First the Bigfoot debunkers, now this. I'll bet they think the Earth is flat, too. |
| Cacique Caribe | 27 May 2017 1:29 p.m. PST |
Coyote, Everyone knows it's flat AND hollow! :) Dan |
| Old Peculiar | 27 May 2017 2:23 p.m. PST |
Wow, who would have thought it, just about every other civilization that develops a rural flail adaptsand adopts it for military use. But for some reason, not Medieval Europe! |
| Cacique Caribe | 27 May 2017 3:13 p.m. PST |
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| Waco Joe | 27 May 2017 5:50 p.m. PST |
The world cannot be flat, if it was cats would have knocked everything off of it by now. |
| Great War Ace | 27 May 2017 8:57 p.m. PST |
The author hasn't watched Robin and Marian, I gather. Nicol Williamson as Little John did in Sir Ranulf de Pudsey right nicely and with convincing technique. If the weapon works now it worked "then". I agree that it was never all that common. And for sure it was never used in the packed ranks of a medieval "phalanx"……….. |
| bsrlee | 27 May 2017 11:12 p.m. PST |
Obviously the author didn't do a very good job of research. A 'flail' similar to the one described in the passage quoted from Walter Scott was excavated from the burial pits at Visby on Gotland, 1361. Otherwise, +1 with Cacique – absence of (surviving) evidence is not exactly evidence of absence. Once upon a time there were no small dinosaurs known, only behemoths – now there are dozens of tiny dinosaurs known, even some with rudimentary wings. |
| Patrick R | 28 May 2017 3:19 a.m. PST |
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| Great War Ace | 28 May 2017 6:29 a.m. PST |
Videos were a lot of fun. Thanks, Patrick. |
| Tango01 | 28 May 2017 3:28 p.m. PST |
Yes… Thanks!.
Amicalement
Armand
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 Parzival  | 28 May 2017 8:31 p.m. PST |
Interesting videos… I watched the one with the bascinet helm, and was impressed at how well it held up. Even some of the most serious blows came after repeated blows from other weapons, which probably allowed the dents to be bigger than the weapon might have inflicted on an undeformed helm. However, the lack of a secure fitting may have affected the test, as when the helm can move about the force of the blow goes to movement rather than penetration or damage. But even if that's not a valid conjecture, a person wearing the helmet probably has a good chance of being concussed from some of those blows, even if no external damage to the head is caused. The flail looked kind of lame, but then it wasn't a true spiked morningstar, and had a rather small ball. Still, it was interesting to see that even the warhammer spike only barely penetrated the helm, and that was at a point with a significant dent that therefore wouldn't deflect the spike. |
| basileus66 | 28 May 2017 11:23 p.m. PST |
absence of (surviving) evidence is not exactly evidence of absence. Well, yes and no. It is a bit more complicated, actually. If you take too far you can go down a rabbit hole of epic proportions. After all, there is no evidence that M1 Garands were used in the Roman Empire but you can't rule it out just because there is no evidence of M1 Garands being used! You can have strong suspicions that, say, weapons were used in a certain way, but if you have not hard evidence that supports your suspicion you can only speculate. It is your duty as historian to clearly state that your ideas are, in that regard, just informed guesses and that you can be wrong. Historians and archeologists must work with the evidences they have. If there is not hard evidence, either archeological or textual, of the military use of flails in Medieval Europe, that is the end of it… until new information debunks that paradigm. Then you can start working in a new paradigm, explaining, for instance why it was so scarce or how it was probably used. |
| Warspite1 | 29 May 2017 11:42 a.m. PST |
The one-handed ball and chain is questionable.
However the agricultural flail was used as a weapon by many peasants and featured among the Hussites and probably others. It is a good alternative to a pitchfork, a bill or a scythe on a pole. However it is a two-handed weapon. The agricultural flail needed to be two-handed as it was used to thresh wheat, barley and rye and was wielded with great force on to a threshing floor to separate the wheat seeds from the husk and stems. The shaft would be about five to seven feet long and would end in one or two iron-bound bars rather like Bruce Lee's nun chucks. I recall seeing 'Nosher' Powell a film stunt-man and re-enactor casting doubt on the one-handed 'ball and chain' flail. He pointed out that the one he was given could actually bounce off of a shield and the chain was long enough to allow it to break his own forearm. He was not impressed. Barry |
| Warspite1 | 29 May 2017 11:50 a.m. PST |
On the question of extemporised peasant weapons I became the proud owner of a genuine pitchfork when I bought my Norfolk home three years ago. At nights I now stand beside a bonfire in my garden, using the pitchfork to put weeds on to the fire and fighting down an overwhelming desire to storm the nearest Transylvanian castle screaming: "Kill der monster… kill der monster…" :) A pitchfork makes a very good weapon… a sort of bayonet in stereo! Barry |
| uglyfatbloke | 30 May 2017 2:33 p.m. PST |
I've never come across a medieval reference to flails, but anything outside 1250(ish) to 1400 (ish) is outside by sphere, OTH there's a widely-repeated notion of a Scottish medieval shortbow that has no footing at all in history, but you can buy 'replica' ones.
Walters Scott is best not regarded as a reference point. |
