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"And Good Bye for now" Topic


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2,864 hits since 17 May 2017
©1994-2017 Bill Armintrout
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jah1956 Inactive Member18 May 2017 1:24 p.m. PST

After reading the post about British Wargamers and seeing who the author was plus the stink over Weasel. I am just going away it might be some time.

Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian18 May 2017 3:06 p.m. PST

After reading the post about British Wargamers and seeing who the author was plus the stink over Weasel. I am just going away it might be some time.

You mean the post about a minority of British wargamers?

You can put your head in the sand, but the problem won't go away.

You can leave TMP, but that won't solve the problem.

Personal logo Buckeye AKA Darryl Supporting Member of TMP18 May 2017 3:19 p.m. PST

But Bill, this is yet another case of you setting rules that would dawghouse the rest of us, but you feel that you can ignore. Yes, your site, your rules, but the best leaders lead by example. If you have rules for us, follow them as well.

If I said a minority of Jews are fill in the blank or a minority of Muslems are fill in the blank, or that a minority of Nazis were fill in the blank, you'd lock me away. If I called you a creep, or called anyone else on the site a creep that you liked, I would be locked away. But you can call individuals creep just because YOU feel that way. Well, I feel certain ways about the LGBT community, or about liberals, but Lord knows (crap, is using the term Lord an offense?) if I mention any of my opinions towards others, it is a violation.

Just be consistent, I think that is what most of us want. And that means following the rules you expect us to follow. You have lost so many good posters and vendors, I would think you might want to revisit your best practices for running your business.

The rest of us can tolerate, or we can choose to ignore, or we can walk away and perhaps do some additional damage with our wallets.

Personal logo PrivateSnafu Supporting Member of TMP18 May 2017 4:27 p.m. PST

Bill has grown weary of minority opinions on TMP. He is building an echo chamber.

But I say vocal minorities are nothing but FAKE NEWS.

D A THB18 May 2017 5:04 p.m. PST

Its starting again.

TMP link

Personal logo Extra Crispy Sponsoring Member of TMP18 May 2017 5:47 p.m. PST

I find I am spending more of my online time on other sites and forums. Facebook is filled with some really great, friendly and helpful groups, for example.

Andrew Preziosi Supporting Member of TMP18 May 2017 5:53 p.m. PST

Extra Crispy…site/page names PLEASE!

Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian18 May 2017 7:50 p.m. PST

If I said a minority of Jews are fill in the blank or a minority of Muslems are fill in the blank, or that a minority of Nazis were fill in the blank, you'd lock me away.

It is simply a fact that there are British wargamers who promote the idea of a "British hobby" or, to the extreme, denigrate those who they feel are not "sufficiently British." I've given you the examples. I have seen their rants in my inbox.

And I have simply asked the question: how widespread is this among British wargamers? Is this only a few dozen gamers, whose voices are magnified by sharing a forum elsewhere that allows them to reinforce one another? Is it more common? I don't know the answer to this. I hope it is only a small minority of British gamers. It is not a crime to ask the question.

Mitochondria Inactive Member18 May 2017 7:57 p.m. PST

Ciao

Rallynow Supporting Member of TMP18 May 2017 8:01 p.m. PST

What is this Face Book you speak of and how do I find it?

alien BLOODY HELL surfer19 May 2017 12:13 a.m. PST

'And I have simply asked the question: how widespread is this among British wargamers? Is this only a few dozen gamers, whose voices are magnified by sharing a forum elsewhere that allows them to reinforce one another?'

which forum? Frothers? that's a free for all – yes lots of Brits, but also plenty from other nations. TWW? seems pretty international to me and free of random crap other fora get. Same with LAF (lead adventure forum) and Random Platypus. It'd be like me judging TMP due to a section of it's American members who denigrate anyone who doesn't see things their way. As for how British Gamers are – it must be a very small minority as I've never seen it.

Personal logo David Manley Supporting Member of TMP19 May 2017 5:04 a.m. PST

"It is simply a fact that there are British wargamers who promote the idea of a "British hobby" or, to the extreme, denigrate those who they feel are not "sufficiently British." I've given you the examples. I have seen their rants in my inbox."

How about some anonymised examples? You asked the membership to make their case and show sources in the US gamers thread, it would be good for you to lead by example in the British gamers thread. Becaise the evidence in the British thread is pretty much non existent

Personal logo Cacique Caribe Supporting Member of TMP19 May 2017 11:13 a.m. PST

Will, it's a combination of boredom, unrelated frustrations and ego. Once all those planets are in alignment, the probability of disaster goes through the roof.

Then all you need is a tiny spark, a nudge, or sometimes nothing but a whisper.

Dan
PS. But it sure is entertaining! :)

Dadster Supporting Member of TMP19 May 2017 11:50 a.m. PST

Well, this one might explain it all:

https://youtu.be/DGXx56WqqJw

Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian19 May 2017 12:35 p.m. PST

How about some anonymised examples? You asked the membership to make their case and show sources in the US gamers thread, it would be good for you to lead by example in the British gamers thread. Becaise the evidence in the British thread is pretty much non existent

I've already given you two concrete examples, which do not seem to satisfy you.

Besides, this is tangential to my question, which is: to what extent does this exist in wargaming circles? (For purposes of discussion, it does not matter whether you believe me at all about what I have observed.)

So let's sum this up.

On one end of the spectrum, you have what I'll call "benign chauvinism" – as exemplified by the Michael Stockin example I gave earlier. For these people, they seek something beyond a general wargaming experience, but something that is specifically "British" – a "British club" within wargaming, so to speak.

At the other end of the spectrum, you have the "rabid nationalists" – as exemplified by a vocal subset of those who post on Frothers. They view the hobby as "us" versus "them." If someone says something critical about a British wargaming company, it's an attack on the nation. Anything about the hobby which they view as "non-British" is worthy of ridicule.

My question to our British wargaming brethren was: How widespread a problem is this?

The almost universal response has been to say that the problem is confined to a relatively few individuals; or (more worrying) to deny such a problem exists.

I am glad to hear that this problem is rare.

Tiberius19 May 2017 2:32 p.m. PST

bill, I have never bought into the alleged problems people have imagined, perceived or seen on this site. TMP has been and is a great site. But I think on this occasion the British thread was a home goal.

I am Australian and we make it a hobby to dish out on Poms.

But as I said in the British thread, I have never seen the alleged problem that you have perceived

The thread started as a generalisation which was bound to offend and it was unnecessary.

I have been gaming for over 40 years mate, and in my opinion this was unnecessary and disappointing.

A am sorry but in this instance, this is just silly, a home goal.

Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian19 May 2017 2:35 p.m. PST

But as I said in the British thread, I have never seen the alleged problem that you have perceived

You misunderstand. It is not my perception. It is my direct observation. This is a fact.

The thread started as a generalisation which was bound to offend and it was unnecessary.

There was no generalization at all. Nobody should be offended if they read the original post.

Personal logo David Manley Supporting Member of TMP19 May 2017 5:38 p.m. PST

Bill, a big issue here is that you have said it is your direct observation, and that your inbox is flooded with evidence, but we have seen nothing of this other than your grudge with Michael and a beef with a web forum where many of the posts that are hostile to TMP come from correspondents outside the UK (and many from the US) so it is perhaps natural for people to think that the evidence is rather less than convincing, and that you are seeing an issue where one simply does not exist in any measure different from that arising from posts from any country you could mention.

Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian19 May 2017 6:56 p.m. PST

Bill, a big issue here is that you have said it is your direct observation, and that your inbox is flooded with evidence…

Yes

…but we have seen nothing of this other than your grudge with Michael…

I don't have any grudge with Michael, and he was only mentioned when I was asked for an example of someone who promoted their wargaming hobby as "British."

… and a beef with a web forum where many of the posts that are hostile to TMP come from correspondents outside the UK (and many from the US)…

That seems immaterial. The fact is that some British individuals at that forum exhibit a rabid form of chauvinism. Again, when I was asked for an example, I cited them because it is such an obvious case.

Yes, there are non-British people there, what does that have to do with the price of tea in China? Why are you conflating this with the issue of hostility toward TMP?

…so it is perhaps natural for people to think that the evidence is rather less than convincing…

Your logic escapes me. I've provided two examples of such behavior, how many further examples do you need?

…and that you are seeing an issue where one simply does not exist in any measure different from that arising from posts from any country you could mention.

The case seems unique, because:

1. I don't get similar PMs or emails from people of other nationalities.
2. I can't think of any other wargaming website, like TWW, which goes out of its way to brand itself to a single nationality.
3. I can't think of another wargaming forum, like Frothers, where xenophobic behavior with regard to the hobby is allowed or even encouraged.

Whirlwind19 May 2017 9:17 p.m. PST

I can't think of any other wargaming website, like TWW, which goes out of its way to brand itself to a single nationality.

I go there often and I have never noticed a single instance of this. It is generally a particularly welcoming and friendly site, to the point where any even mildly heated discussion will be stopped.

Personal logo Cacique Caribe Supporting Member of TMP19 May 2017 9:25 p.m. PST
Bangorstu20 May 2017 12:28 a.m. PST

Bill – it seems to be a fact which everyone else, has said exists only in your head….

If you don't want British advertisers, just say so. You've already lost at least one.

Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian20 May 2017 11:47 a.m. PST

I go there often and I have never noticed a single instance of this. It is generally a particularly welcoming and friendly site, to the point where any even mildly heated discussion will be stopped.

Maybe they've changed their 'About Us' page? It used to emphasize they were UK-based and on UK-time…

Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian20 May 2017 11:49 a.m. PST

If you don't want British advertisers, just say so. You've already lost at least one.

No advertiser of any kind has cancelled their advertising recently, and certainly not because of this discussion.

Please don't twist what I've said about some British wargamers into an attack on all British wargamers.

Whirlwind20 May 2017 12:07 p.m. PST

Maybe they've changed their 'About Us' page? It used to emphasize they were UK-based and on UK-time…

It says it is run by a UK-based couple and that it is edited in UK-time: link

I don't see how that is chauvinistic, benign or otherwise. It just makes clear that the editing is going to be done in UK-awake hours. It is pretty much the same as you putting that you are in Saratoga, New York, USA on your profile.

Of course Michael has in this little bit:

Plans for the future.

When the site grows we want to hire an editor outside of the UK (perhaps in the USA or Australia) to enable us to offer more round the clock support.

That seems to confirm he doesn't want to create any kind of forum only for "British-specific" gaming.

Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian20 May 2017 3:43 p.m. PST

I don't see how that is chauvinistic, benign or otherwise.

I'll respectfully disagree, taking into consideration Michael's history.

Sorry - only verified members can post on the forums.