"Does 'Dinosaur' Behavior Drive Young Players Away?" Topic

One TMP member recently claimed that the 'graying of the hobby' is partially due to older gamers driving the younger players away by acting like "we're all a bunch of dinosaurs."

Do you agree with him?

I've seen it in the short term anyway (individual games). Although I wouldn't call it 'dinosaur' behavior but more like "acting like a baby"

Depends on the species of dinosaur. I've seen it happen in person, but in this case like most others 90% of the people act just fine but 10% cause the problems.

-Will

The "new shiny" is what entices younger players away. I am not saying this as a negative either, one of my history teachers complained that kids watched "space stuff" these days when kids of his day watched historical based stuff. Only later did I realize he was talking about westerns from the fifties, calling that historical based is pushing the term.

Long story short – tastes change and historical stuff is not the flavor of the moment, may never be again, and that is OK. Now, if that comment was in relation to Fantasy or SciFi I'd have to say that nobody is being pushed away from those.

At conventions, yes this behaviour is a problem.

I'm no longer a younger player but I am comparatively young and have only been going to conventions for the past 4-5 years. I have seen many good games fill up with "grey beards" who have been playing together for years and all know the rules very well. Sometimes these groups are nice and try to invite new players to join. Other times they want to play their game with their friends and can barely be bothered to explain the rules to anyone who can find a spot at the table.

I have also seen the opposite issue where a group of older gamers at a table are really just there to chat and hangout. I'm brining a younger player to the Con and attempting to get them into the hobby only to find the the game we signed up for isn't really happening.

The dinosaur/insular mentality of some of the older/longer standing players does drive people off. Thankfully there are always a few good players/games willing and eager to pull in younger players.

As a younger player (23), I find that older players tend to be more likely to tell me I'm "having fun wrong" and the variations of that ("If you use a hex grid for a game, it's not a miniatures game," "Sci fi and fantasy shouldn't be considered the same hobby as historicals," etc.) Or to think that because I'm young, I know nothing of history. Many of them are politely disinvited from participating in my games in the future.

That said, I game with a lot of older people who are fine.

Fair point… this happened at the club last week:

YouTube link

In my defence, the elephant was talking utter rubbish about Napoeonic French Legere in the 100 days campaign.

Not sure if it this that causes the graying, as much as there just is a too high of time demand and entry cost to play with miniatures that youngsters can avoid with a pirated computer game. Certainly there are some old farts who do this. I don't see it as a major factor.

Someone who has done extensive market research can correct me on this, but personally I don't see the hobby graying. I'm 33, so somewhere between the old guard and the freshest of recruits. I think games in general are becoming a far stronger cultural force than they ever were in the past, and while that means there is more and more competition for people's time and attention, I think more and more people see gaming of one kind or another as a possible pastime.

There is plenty of behavior among gamers that can be off-putting to newcomers, but I don't think it has that much to do with age. If you're a grumpy child with the social skills of a serial killer at the age of 25, you probably will be when your 75 too. And conversely if you have the skill set and personality to welcome new people and perspectives when you're younger, chances are you'll maintain that as you get older. Or so it seems to me. Now get off my lawn.

We have been hearing about the greying of the hobby for decades. It is one of those "zombie" notions that should be dead but keeps arising and bedeviling the living.

I concur. It's more about personality than age.

If young pups come to our club with warhammer and elves and things we drive them away with our superior historical attitude!

I remember going to the Arbofield Wargames club in about 76 to be told that at 15 I was too young to join!!

Tally Ho!

I'm happy to have younger people in the hobby, but they just lack any historical perspective. In my day, we had to walk to the hobby store in four feet of snow, uphill both ways, against gale-force winds. The store owner would curse at us for taking too long to decide what we were going to buy, and the grumpy old men re-fighting the battle of Borodino in the back would curse at us for lacking any historical perspective. Back when they were young, there weren't any hobby stores, and you had to make your own miniatures out of clay and bits of lead that you scavenged from the shooting range, any many of them had burn scars from pouring the molten lead to prove it.

But you try to tell that to young people and they look at their phones.

I think games in general are becoming a far stronger cultural force than they ever were in the past, and while that means there is more and more competition for people's time and attention, I think more and more people see gaming of one kind or another as a possible pastime.

This is true. While it's hard to get much of a handle on a hobby as varied and diffuse as "Gaming", the surveys that have been published and the observations expressed in numerous blogs and podcasts by game designers and publishers generally concur with this statement.

Recreational wargaming is now into its third generation and it is not graying or fading away, but morphing into something more in line with the tastes and expectations of those who have just joined in during the last fifteen or twenty years, like those who are part of the explosive resurgence of hobby boardgaming. The behavior of certain older wargamers has little or nothing to do with it.

I agree with Wakenney, having experienced the same issue when I was first going to cons years ago. Now I'm in the mid to older set. Still, when I attend cons now many of the games have "filled up" prior to the convention with groups playing their annual get together. The games are usually very impressive and the players have fun but it's hard to get into those games regardless of age.
I believe that if games are defacto closed prior to the convention they should reserve a table but not be in the PEL. In order to slow the Graying of the hobby we have to be more inclusive of new and younger players. I applaud the HAWKS as their games are very inclusive and you see many newer players trying their stuff out.
Zombies, Space, near future etc. all have a place in the miniatures hobby. To call some of the historical games historical isn't true. Lining up 6 tigers hub to hub isn't historical at all. Fortunately for me I've had a great time in this hobby since I was very young. Yes their are those that put off people but there are also those who have inspired,included and helped me enjoy miniatures for what hopefully ends up being a lifetime.

I think the younger set simply stopped going to the older conventions and created their own instead. I'm a fan of Little Wars, but I'd not be surprised if the average age there was above 50 and had 1/5th the audience of Adepticon. The excitement in the air at the latter show was palpable while Little Wars felt a bit like a club for retired gentlemen. I have often felt the same at Historicon and other historically focused shows I've been to on the East Coast. Youngsters who go to a historically focused con have to be willing to be the minority at the table, and a lot of (though by no means all) younger players would rather just play with their own age group.

That said, I've played with young players who were really well spoken and researched and others who were really a pain to play with. The same goes for old players. There's gems and jerks in every age group. I enjoy having kids at the table because they often bring excitement, and I'm sorry, a lot of folks I've played with at historical conventions come off as angry to be there and angry to share the same table with you. Thank God for the ones who come to game with childlike interest.

As someone who has organized and run historical games
for children (8-13) for a long time, I am not sure what
'dinosaur' behavior is.

I infer, from comments upthread, that it has to do with
disparaging anything that doesn't involve historical
mini's.

IDK about anyone else here, but I've played a whole lot
of miniature games which were not historical – some of
which were fantasy, some science-fiction and quite a
few 'other,' for lack of a better descriptor.

It's 'games,' folks, games.

Ed,

For me Dinosaur players exhibit the following behavior (regardless of age)-

General Grumpy Attitude at the Table

Desire to Tell Other Players How To Play (sometimes to the point of yelling at them over making decisions they wouldn't have made).

An offshoot of the above is assuming that a player is too young to know what they are doing and demanding, and expecting that player to simply do what they say.

Doing the above to the point of actually moving that player's figures 'for them.'

Yelling at other players for going too slow, or too fast

Being audibly frustrated at players who are new to the rules and want an action explained so that they can figure out how to play better themselves.

Basically…stuff like that.

I'm not sure about broader implications, but there are guys I wouldn't want to have at the same table as my young nephews, and it's not a foul language thing, just guys who do a lot of what's on TGerritsen's list, and when they aren't being Richards, they're being creepily patronizing. And I've seen female gamers get it worse.

My own experiences hosting games that have 12-16yos show up to play though have all been positive, and the older gamers good sports.

I concur. It's more about personality than age.

Concur.

10% (or whatever low number) of people in an activity doing their best to ruin it for everyone else is pretty common.

Cliquishness is not the sole province of the graybeards. I've seen it in young people, old people, these people, those people. This clique has a little car. This clique has a little star. Say, what a lot of cliques there are.

My fave condescending behaviour … DOM, ~15 and probably looking younger, was playing a game within a clique (who ticked her, me, and SWMBO off because they wouldn't provide or explain the rules, even when asked direct questions). One of the "ins" picked up one of her figures and asked her "Do you know what this kind of helmet is called?" Simultaneously with his sing-songy follow up, "A Pickle Helmet!" she said, "Ja Das ist ein Pickelhaube." He put it down and walked away. :)

So, to the OP, generally, younger players appreciate when I act like a dinosaur.

I've definitely seen hostility to younger players. I've also seen the reverse. But the "graying of the hobby" is a myth. According to the predictions of the original promoters of it, the hobby should be dead by now. It's not. There are plenty of younger players out there, and the great majority of older players are quite welcoming to them.

Well, if we really acted like dinosaurs we would either eat them or stomp on them, not chase them away.

Dan
PS. Seriously, it's a rare thing to find a youngster who would want to spend time with anyone outside their own age group. Even if the other player was just 5 years older (or younger) they already find that situation unbearable. Add to that one or two light-hearted comments about things that happened before they were born, and they are soon trying to claw their way out of the room.

As a definitively grey(ish) part of the gaming populace, I welcome children to participate in games that I am playing. I have played in several in which young folk were seriously doing a better job tactically than many of the adults playing. "Showing the ropes" is one of our essential duties for the upcoming generation of gamers, and showing them that wargames can be fun as well as educational. Otherwise, our conventions will be organized on how well the assisted care facilities are provided at the site.

Young players, old players, they all annoy me. I'm going to go play by myself (and cheat).

RedBanner, now THAT'S the spirit!

Dan
PS. These days I've actually heard myself utter the phrase "back in my day" several times a week.

I got that old coot beat, I remember when Blackberry was the next big thing.

At Salute a few weeks ago, while there was a sizeable proportion of attendees in middle age or upwards, there were also plenty of people in the c.15-35 age bracket and a few even younger than that.

I think the trend will always be for serious hobbyists to be older: apart from anything else they are the groups most likely to have the disposable income (and to a lesser extent, time) to pursue the hobby. But I haven't personally seen much evidence that there is a crisis of new blood entering, either.

With regard to the specific question asked, I think that the "grumpy old men" vibe given off by some senior gamers can be offputting to newer/younger ones, much as the unwanted attention sometimes given to the female of the species probably accounts for part of the reason why the hobby is so male-dominated (though, again, not to the extent often suggested). I think in some cases even the anticipation of it can be a problem: I have a couple of friends who have been put off getting into historicals because they fear the sneering of established gamers (though they are happy to play fantasy and sci-fi).

But while that's something I think could be improved, I doubt it's driving too many people out of the hobby altogether. Most people who are seriously interested will likely end up pursuing it themselves somewhere else, out of sight of the hobby elders. Which leads them in turn to consider that there aren't any young people playing.

Dear T. Gerritsen

I have seen those attitudes in evidence with any gamer not just for the young. I can attest to Ed Mohrmanns personal efforts to be supportive and inclusive with "the young" and I do the same myself. It's a game, it's only a game. I suspect it's me. I do imagi-Nations and so almost anything goes. I'm not into making players play a certain way or following history because, as I have said many times war games has nothing to do with war. All too often I think the animus against "the young" is because of their energy and frenetic excistement. If you have a unit you don't want damaged put it on the table.

I remember one time the local historical group wanted to do their yearly open house for Christmas. The year before they did an exhibit of iron toys one member had. I volunteered to put out my war game armies. So it was decided.

I laid out several tables of armies, soldiers, a whole battle, a display of war game books and magazines, even Paper dolls and of course, terrain, castles, fortresses, etc. This was in 30mm and 54mm. There was a Santa Claus and refreshments. In the refreshment room I managed other entertainment as well.

When the kids were let in at the start of the day, they all had rather dull-eyes and wanted to go back home to peck on their computers and some had I phones with them. But when they saw the hundreds and thousands of toy soldiers, books, and terrains there was an audible gasp and they forgot all about Santa and rushed over to the table with eyes as wide as saucers. They were followed by a bevy of frantic Moms who were screeching "DON'T TOUCH! DON'T TOUCH!" The kids drew in their hands and had sadness in their eyes. I said to the adults "Oh don't worry they can touch as much as they want! They are merely toys and made to be played with." One Mom plaintively and apologetically said "Oh but I don't want them to break anything." I smiled and said that "Oh, it's nothing that can't be easily mended. They are after all only little toy soldiers.

Then began the wild looking at troops and units, the paging through the books and the constant cacophony of "MOM LOOK AT THIS!!, WOW NEAT!! OH WOW!!! AWESOME" and the sussurating underdones of laser, gun, and "shooty sounds." One little girl took up Joe Moreschause4r's book and sat down and started reading it. Another looked at the minis and houses and found the display of paper dolls and was transfixed and squaaled out "MOMMY MOMMY I WANT THIS DRESS WHEN I GOT MARRIED." I said to her "Yes sweetie, Marie Antoinette liked it too!" "Who was Marie Antoinette? " she asked, and this was an occastion to tell her in brief the romantic and tragic history of the queen of France." And so it wen't. The mothers literally had to pry the kids away from the table and go see Santa, which they did only glumly, kids made up games and made their own rules. They had a great amount of fun.

After that we took them to the other room where there were lots of refreshments and coffie and tea and soda and ice cream, and we had set up there two televisions set up with loops from the Laurel and Hardy Babes in Toyland on the one and a production of "The Nutcracker" on the other. One for the boys and one for the girls, and both featuring toy soldiers.

After we had hopped them up on sugar and films, they went back to the to the room to look and stare and play with the soldiers. Then the Moms who wanted to go gathered them up and the kids were very cross. Santa had handed out some toys to them and games that the local hobby shop had donated, and I reminded them all that the local hobby shop could get many of the things on display, and thus we sent them out into the cold to search for even more.

The little girl who was reading the book didn't want to Go and wanted to stay and read the book. I told the mother she could take it and return it later. The mother was flabbergasted. "Please, I have other copies" but I'm sure she will return it. Never crush a child's enthusiasm." And she did, three months later, and she said she had read it a dozen times. She's now away at college but a keen gamer.

The simple fact is if you are not as excited about war games NOW, no matter how old you are, as those children were on that day, then you've lost something or never had it in the first place and far more likely to exhibit "dinosaurish" behavior.

History IS. It doesn't need you to safeguard it or champion it, and this is all about fun, not historical realism. As for historical veracity, or correct tactics and realism or intellectual challenging rules, all you are doing is edging your way into the land of the pompous idiots.

My father was a colonel in the Austro-Hungarian Army in the First World War. When one of my classmates in high school heard this he began lecturing about the Austro-Hungarian Army of World War one and in many cases contradicting him. My father replied in his heavily accented German "Vass you dere Charlie?"

Stupid behaviour, comments, attitudes, predjudice etc can put people off of any age, in all sorts of situations, could be in a game, job, relationship, or even on an internet forum.

There is always a tipping point. Otto's is evidently very flexible. Mine, not so much, anymore.

Time once was when I could cram over a dozen people around my table, with no room to spare, and put on a RPG all evening (six hours minimum), while most of those guys dug out my stuff stacked under the table, or from under the stairs, and distracted themselves waiting for their turns. I knew that they were pawing over my things in storage, but ignored them because as GM I had a job to do. This went on for years, as they grew up and then moved on to other adult things. Only a few things got broken. But it did feel more like a home invasion than a gaming night!

I got tired of it all before the gaming ended.

Now, with a resumption of a much smaller gaming group (headed up by one of the old crowd from those long years ago), I find that I have little if any reserve left. My gaming must be calm, even somewhat predictable. And I don't invite strangers, not even the kids of the gamers, unless I've thought it through first. For instance, one of the guys has grown sons that still live at home and are anything but a known quantity to myself. I dread the very notion of them joining in. So my "dinosaur behavior" will impose limits on just how far I will bend to be accommodating……

The root of the phenomenon is in the concatenation of the old sawz "Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery" and the boundless craving of this type of gamer to be flattered." Of course the corollary of that is that persons who see non imitation as personal rejection.-- love me, love my dog, don't love my dog, you hate me.

As for accommodating I'll always be of the "more the merrier" type and welcome rank amateurs to the hobby. So far I've converted 18 persons (including two whole families) to the game.

Otto, your words and tale kindle the little warm spot in my heart. The part that hasn't calcified into cynical snarkiness. To get such a reaction from children and open doors for them…priceless.

Dear Capncarp

Thank you. Children are the great fonts of enthusiasm and excitement. They are all about potential and possibilities, and they have a spirit of play and sense of wonder that we adults in life can only envy. But we are sustained by their enthusiasm as well because we all have some remnant of that within us from when we were young. They are no "little angels" by a long shot but they have the ability to be passionate, an ability that often gets beaten out of us by life when we reach adult-hood. That is why we OUGHT to find in war games the "sense of wonder" and "spirit of play" that are the essential of war games.

Note there is no room for the sententiousness of "realism" and the pomposity of "historical research" or "intellectual challenge."

Note there is no room for the sententiousness of "realism" and the pomposity of "historical research" or "intellectual challenge."

But there's room for the sententiousness of "sense of wonder" and "spirit of play", apparently.