"Gettysburg stone walls" Topic

A recent discussion here on TMP, (as a side issue to the original topic, I believe), involved some new stone walls in the Ziegler's Grove area of the Battlefield. I had been under the impression that by far most of the stone walls at Gettysburg were about knee high, more or less, and was surprised to see new stone walls about 4 1/2 feet high being erected at the Ziegler's Grove site. I was informed the walls are being built to replicate the ones that were there at the time of the battle and whose remains were removed for the construction of the building containing the cyclorama when it was built. The employee I spoke to stated that many of the walls were this high at the time of the battle but that the ravages of time had decreased their height. I had not been aware that very many of the stone walls were that high. I believe only a few readers will have any interest in this topic, but I just mention it for the benefit of any Gettysburg buffs who might have an interest are not able to visit frequently. Thanks, John Miller

I've always wondered about this. I didn't think they could have been so low at the time, but that's a LOT of deterioration. Maybe souvenir hunters also?

If you could find out when the wall was built that may help. If was done before say 1760 then it would be most like an English stone wall of about 4 feet. I suppose it depended on how much rock was to be cleared.

In the notes to one of Don Troiani's paintings it says his research also indicated this, and he had painted the walls higher than they exist today.

I must confess I had always assumed they were higher on the grounds that if any were used for keeping sheep or cows in/out they wouldn't do much of a job.

Not suggesting Pennsylvania was ranching country but even if keeping livestock for family or local need, its kind of handy to have them where you left them the previous day!

I know sheep can jump but they are not great on imagination so if they can't see they don't bother (well mostly).

The other question that occurs to me (suddenly after all these years) is how many were that wall-fence hybrid that you see (waits for howls of derision from those knowing the proper name) and no longer have their wooden superstructure?

Might not have been Pennsylvania thing of course.

They ran cattle in the area and it why alot of the wood were just trees and no undergrowth, Thats why they had the slaughter pens near little round top.

Last week I gave a tour to my daughter's 4th grade class as I do every year. The wall reconstruction project is also going on along Cemetery Ridge. They have prepositioned crates of new stone near the old ones. Funny you should mention this now as last week while I was hiking to Culp's Hill I noticed how some of the stone fences on the left side of the road have almost seemed to be one solid mass as the crevices have filled with decayed leaf litter and now have ferns and the like growing out of them. They may have been maybe 24 inches high but much wider than when they were built.

Interesting point on the cattle!

I guess there's a given point when running cattle becomes flat out ranching. A matter of amount of land and numbers of animals I suppose.

The other question is which walls were really just built as boundary markers and which were built as obstacles.

Well, are we talking about "Stone walls" or "Rock fences"?

There is a difference.

Correction to my post. I meant Seminary Ridge along West Confederate Ave

The other question that occurs to me (suddenly after all these years) is how many were that wall-fence hybrid that you see (waits for howls of derision from those knowing the proper name) and no longer have their wooden superstructure?he other question that occurs to me (suddenly after all these years) is how many were that wall-fence hybrid that you see (waits for howls of derision from those knowing the proper name) and no longer have their wooden superstructure?

"Pig tight, cow high" is the fence you're referring to. Generally, a low stone wall topped with a wooden cross type fence. The stone wall kept the pigs in while the fence kept the cows at bay.

Is their a difference between a stone wall and a stone fence?

Yeah, I've always wondered that.

It has been my understanding stone walls around farming fields are just a place to put them, The key would be to look for period photographs in same area.

All Hands: Firstly, thanks to all hands for your insights!! Second, I owe everyone an apology. I estimated the height of the new stone walls at 4 1/2 feet. When I went to Gettysburg over the weekend I forgot my tape measure, (this is not surprising, I am not usually the brightest bubble light on the Christmas tree it seems). I returned to the battlefield today armed with my trusty tape measure and measured the height of the walls at a surprisingly uniform, in my opinion, 4 feet. I checked several photos that were taken after the battle, most in the 1880's for the use of the painter of the Cyclorama, and the walls pictured seem smaller, some around two and some around three feet maybe, but its hard to tell exactly from the photos. I was just surprised because I was under the impression the walls were higher than now but not as high as the new ones are. I was also under the impression that the walls were constructed primarily to remove the rocks from the fields for planting and plowing reasons and that keeping animals in or out and marking off different fields was more of a secondary purpose, (rocks pig high, wooden superstructure on top, cow high). I am sure however, that the Park Service knows what it is about in this matter and I am a great supporter of their efforts to return the field to it appearance at the time of the battle so my question was not meant to criticize them.

shirleylyn: I am not aware of the difference between a stone wall and a stone fence.

Wackmole9: Thanks, I was not aware of that. I had assumed that the term "slaughter pen" referred to the slaughter of the troops in that area. Another error on my part.

Thanks again to all who commented, John Miller

My husband has a very very pretty set of quite detailed watercolor maps. He's asleep, and i don't know where they are, but anyway…

The maps came with a information booklet that details the importance of "fences on the North American Battlefield", and makes a point of what were "rock fences" and "stone walls"(which were made using "fitted stones") so I was'nt trying to troll.

I'm sure someone here knows what map set I'm talking about…

Nope, no idea but I would certainly like to see it and the booklet too!

Found the maps.

They are by McElfresh, and there are 2 maps in the box.

There is a leaflet called "fences during the civil war" and there is quite a bit of info on the different types of fence.

And I remembered correctly: there is a difference between "stone walls" and "rock fences".

If anyone would like a scan of the leaflet, pm me.

shirleylyn: I had those but seem to have misplaced them when I moved about ten years or so ago. I remember them as being quite beautiful for the price. I never considered that you were trolling. Now that you have reminded me of their existence I am going to make a more diligent effort to see if I can find them in my storage!! Thank you for the heads up. John Miller

My husband and his friends have been gaming the different "battles within the battle" of Gettysburg for about 30 years. In fact, they are only playing the fighting at Gettysburg in 15mm.

And now, the nut jobs that they are, they are thinking of selling off all their misc. 15mm figures to refinance a move to the excellent Blue Moon 15-18mm. And switching from Johnny Reb 3 to Regimental Fire And Fury.

I say they are nut jobs, because it will be ME doing most of the paint work, LOL. Tho TBH, I don't really mind, as the Blue Moon figures are very nice miniatures. They considered going to 10mm, but these boys are all about near 50, and well, the eyes…

Anyway, my husband says

shirleylyn: A wife that paints her husband's figures! Would that not define marital bliss? As to the rock walls, from what I can gather, a stone wall is made with mortar and stone whereas a stone fence has the stones just stacked upon each other.

Iam building Gettysburg and so have been pouring over the 1st topographic study done very shortly after. The stone walls start south of town directly towards Little Round Top but not west ward very far. The stones to my understanding besides marking fields are there to collect rocks from the fields, so the more rocks the higher the walls.

Forget stone walls Shirleylyn, You Rock!

14Bore: Thank you very much for posting this map. I saw it on your other posting but was not able to enlarge it at that time, (I have very limited computer skills, and only occasional access to a computer most of the time). Thanks, John Miller

A few comments about stone fences and walls.

Stones will lift themselves up out of the ground by frost action. They get lifted by water->ice expansion and dirt falls under them in a thaw.

Farmers will use levers, oxen and stone boats to move stones out of the fields during the winter, when sleghts and time permit. Usually they will be a low pile and they will use top logs to make it higher to keep in/out animals. (the custom changed over time from keeping animals OUT of crop fields to keeping them IN their pastures). If you look, you will see "snake fences" are always on top of the low stone walls.

It takes about 150 years for farmers to clear fields of the stones working up. In New England, it was heavily glaciated and they just about got the fields cleared, starting from colonial times, when the population decreased because cheap, very good, trans-appalacian farmland opened in in Ohio and westward. Notice that in Europe, they have had several thousand years to work on all this.

Stone walls were often built along the high spots,where the soil was thinner and drier. You also wanted to stay away from streams and occasional watercourses because that is where you get stuck or might have to use a ford or a bridge. High spots and ridges are also where they roads were put in order to avoid mud and snow drifts. Usually, you didn't want a road to go up or down a steep slope, because that is harder on horses than a longer trip with a more gentle slope. (Surprisingly, a steep down is stressful for a carriage animal, the body and gear are not optimized for that). So you will see roads and fences along the military crest.

Stone walls are often near roads. They made a lot of heavily used roads wide (in American) so they could avoid the mudholes in wet season. Guess what happens when you have a difficult pot/mud hole in the road and a ready supply of stone from a fence to fill it up with so you can travel and not get stuck. Stone fences gradually disappear for that and for building foundations. Expect that to mess up the historical heights. By the way, that aspect made it easier to pave a lot of roads because the sub-surface ballast was already in place.

1968billsfan: Thanks very much for the above!!! It seems there is more to the subject of stone walls, (or fences, as the case may be), than I imagined. John Miller

All Hands: Thanks to everyone who commented on this subject. It seems the more I read about the Battle of Gettysburg the more I realize what I don't know far exceeds what I do know. John Miller