"German army calls for searches of all barracks..." Topic

… after Nazi memorabilia found.

"The head of Germany's armed forces has called for an inspection of all army barracks after investigators discovered Nazi-era military memorabilia in a garrison, broadening a scandal about right-wing extremism among soldiers.

The discovery at a barracks in Donaueschingen, in southwest Germany, was made in an investigation that began after similar Nazi-era items were found in the garrison of an army officer arrested on suspicion of planning a racially motivated attack.

As a result, General Inspector Volker Wieker ordered a wider search of barracks.

"The General Inspector has instructed that all properties be inspected to see whether rules on dealing with heritage with regard to the Wehrmacht and National Socialism are being observed," a Defence Ministry spokesman said…"
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Amicalement
Armand

My dad used to tell me that the Panzer Unit he worked with in West Germany during the cold war 1959-61 had a couple older gentleman that when they had a few beers in them used to sing "the old songs" as he put it.

Well at the first barracks, the Nazi items were on open display in the common room. Then more items were found in other barracks, so the German army decided they had a problem and ordered a nation-wide search.
Apparently senior officers had been 'looking the other way'.

Open defiance of the law in the ranks tends to point to a wider disciplinary problem.

Also, the Nazis executed something like ten thousand of their own troops. They might want to be careful what they wish for.

Cosmicbank – they wouldn't have had to have been that old, back then – late 20s or early 30s would have done it – and as for 'the old songs', well, 'The Devil's Song' is sung happily by the FFL thanks to the influx of, er, 'Swiss' Legionnaires after 1945…

With regards to Whermacht/NSDAP memorabilia; this is a surprise because why?

I've overheard German troops saying "Danzig ist Deutsch" before. At first I thought they were joking (not that I necessarily disagree), a friend reassured me that they were not and there are many in the modern day German military who have strong feelings about Germany's former territories (to include Kaliningrad/Konigsberg).

This was ~8 years ago.

Unfortunately …there are more Nazis in Germany than you think …..

Amicalement
Armand

Well I could see why the German's got upset with this sort of thing. And I'm even more disappointed about the Officers. If it is true they were "looking the other way" … very sad for a number of reasons.

And IIRC, some one here posted an article last year(?) about the Germans may have to go to a draft. To fill the ranks as many don't volunteer. I wonder if this is still the case ? And if this article is accurate, and I don't doubt it. Are a large number of these Neo-Nazis joining up ?

Albeit, I can't help but think how "useful" these types might be when fighting terrorism. Deash … AQ … Taliban … AS … BH, etc., … vs. Neo-Nazis. Don't get me wrong, Nazis are reprehensible, horrible, etc., etc. But so are the terrorists, IMO …

True the songs weren't that old then and they are not that old now.

Legion- why would nazis be any better at fighting than the rest of us?

Well … they seemed just to be a little more "ruthless", IMO …

Yeah they were quite ruthless.

To the extent they made the Ukrainians join forces with the dictator that had starved them because he became the lesser evil.

Hardly a tactical advantage even if we're down with the whole "genocide" thing.

The only thing I'm "down with" is ruthlessness and efficiently … when it comes to dealing with terrorists. And I don't care if the terrorists pray to Donald Duck and come from Alpha Centuri. They need to be … dare I say … "terminated with extreme prejudice" … IMO, of course.

These terrorists bring nothing good to the world only a lot of bad. As far as I'm concerned, they forfeited their "subscription to life". And their heinous actions should not be overlooked by anyone. Regardless of why they did what they did. There is NO excuse for their crimes.

Nobody is making excuses for terrorists in this thread, so I don't know why you'd bring that up.

I'm not saying that, you may be reading something into my words that was not my intent …

I'm saying generally in the case of Deash, AQ, BH, AS, etc., ruthlessness and efficiently. Is a "good" way to handle these types, IMO. Who have willfully and as matter of "dogma"/"policy" committed genocide, crimes against humanity, medieval cruelty, etc., etc. …

Again, there is no excuse for that … they generally IMO, can't be rehabbed to be peaceful functioning members of any society. Besides the fact they committed heinous crimes.

And they should be punished. Hopefully, the overwhelming majority won't be alive to be charged and make it to some sort of court.

So again, don't read something in my words that are not there. I'm just stating my opinion which reflects the total distain, hatred, etc. I have for these types …

I am trying to figure out what you are trying to say here.

I thought some sort of conversation was happening but I guess I stepped into some sort of monologue?

I guess I don't understand what you are saying. But this is my "take" on it.

Nazi are very bad …

However they were generally considered motivated, ruthless and efficient in war.

The terrorists are very bad too …

They commit heinous crimes as "dogma", etc.

The Nazis/SS did the same in many cases.

So if you follow my reasoning. You have two very "bad" groups. Who are good at killing ruthlessly and are very motivated to do it. For whatever reasons …

However, the Nazis seemed to be much more "efficient" …

So I'd think if given the paradigm of Nazis/SS fighting terrorists. The Nazi's record/predilection for being "good" war fighters, etc. And they don't have the restrictive ROE, etc. as the US, UK, etc., does.

It would be like to groups of ruthless, "bigoted" killers trying to wipe each other out. And IMO, the Nazis would show the terrorist "a thing or two/how it is done" … i.e. very ruthlessly and efficiently.

I don't think this a "monologue" … anyone can freely comment on my opinions, etc. And I guess most know of my hatred and distain, etc., for these terrorists.

So it should be no surprise to anyone who has frequently read my posts. Dealing with a topic like this. That I'm a very strong advocate of terminating/eliminating these terrorist groups ruthlessly and efficiently. In large numbers as often as possible. No prisoners, no quarter, no mercy …

Like that?

So when we roll in like that picture, but wearing American and German flags, what do you think the reaction is going to be from the locals who were undecided up until that point?

So what would you recommend for the American 'patriots' that bomb federal buildings and clinics? It is true that if you are a US citizen, then post 2001 you are more likely to be a victim of a US right wing terror attack than an ISIS or 'Muslim' terror.

Weasel … You are taking my posts out of context … again … And my comments concerning ISIS, AQ, etc. vs. the "Nazis/SS" are "hypothetical". Save for my comments about eliminating terrorist …

There used to be a show on TV. Where they would have the "experts", Vets, IT guys, etc., using computers, etc. Where they had certain units throughout history at squad strength. Fight each other in simulated combat. Some of the match-ups were, the VC vs the SS. The IRA vs. AQ, etc., etc., etc.

In none of those "conflicts" was anything brought to the simulations save for combat prowess, effectiveness, battle records, etc.

That is the kind of thing I was alluding to … Nothing about the pic you have posted.

And IIRC, after running the a computer simulation @ 1000 times. The results revealed. The SS beat the VC and the IRA beat AQ. That is the sort of thing I'm talking about.

Put down you usual pitch fork and torch routine when it comes to my take on fighting terrorists. Regardless of … again where the come from or who the pray to.

So what would you recommend for the American 'patriots' that bomb federal buildings and clinics?

Those are not American Patriots. But you are not an American. So you may not understand that. Those are crimnal acts carried out by criminals. And they could be considered terrorists.

It is true that if you are a US citizen, then post 2001 you are more likely to be a victim of a US right wing terror attack than an ISIS or 'Muslim' terror.

You are way off base here, IMO. I said nothing about ID'ing the religion, etc. of terrorists. Doing that would get me DH'd or worse. Again what people like you for some reason it seems to me don't understand [or want to?]. LET NME … say it again. I don't care where the terrorists/enemy comes from or who they pray to, etc.. If they threaten my life or those of my countrymen, etc. They are nothing but targets. You do understand that ?

US right wing "terror" attacks are so very small in number and frequency to be almost considered a tiny, minute, lunatic fringe. See I know this, I live here, I watch the news, etc.

And you are more likely to be a victim of a car accident. Than any sort of "attack". So what I recommend to you or anyone who may think like you do about the USA. Really may not know exactly what you are alluding to ? Unless you actually live here for as long as I have, over 6 decades. But you and anyone else are allowed to state an opinion as am I.

Legion, the real problem with your argument* is that it is based on a myth--the Nazi regime was actually notoriously inefficient and corrupt,two jobs that are already filled very well by the governments where the fighting is going on.

You can Google a number of articles on the subject; here's one--it has the added bonus of a Star Trek reference!

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* I'm leaving aside its inherent distastefulness--and surely you can't be surprised at the reaction to that?

is that it is based on a myth--the Nazi regime was actually notoriously inefficient and corrupt

Well aware of all that. I'm taking about at the Squad, Platoon and Company level. German small unit tactics and operations, etc., were generally very effective in many cases. Especially in the early war.

I'm not taking about the Nazi hierarchy/regime, etc. I'm talking about the level of operations I was trained and had a modicum of "skill" in.

I'm not talking about genocide, the camps, etc. We/I did study the history of all that. But at my level of leadership, I/we were more concerned about tactics, techniques, of small unit operations and actions.

To many like Weasel and Khusra, it seems don't understand the difference between the operational art and science of war. And the "distasteful" aspects like the picture Weasel posted. Which I reported to Bill as being in poor taste and having nothing to do with my posts.

what do you think the reaction is going to be from the locals who were undecided up until that point?

Let me try to make it clear to you. I'm not talking about genocide, etc. I'm talking about the tactical skills and abilities, etc. of the Nazis/SS and the terrorists. But many, the second someone says Nazis they think genocide and camps, etc. THAT is not what I'm referring to.

And please Weasel don't try to lecture me on "what do you think the reaction is going to be from the locals who were undecided up until that point?" I was trained by some of the best who served in SE Asia. About guerilla, insurgent, partisan warfare, etc. You again take my posts out of context. I'm taking at the small level unit. Actions of two forces who are known for brutality and ruthlessness, etc.

I'm not concerned at this level about the "geopolitics" or dogma of the Nazis or terrorists. At Squad, Platoon and Company levels. Just how they operate, tactics, techniques, etc. In a firefight, I'd think, about what the Nazi or terrorist "believe" in. It really does not matter. Just how they operate and what I can do to eliminate them as a threat.

Both your replies IMO show once again, it seems to me the lack of knowledge and training of small unit operations, actions in a firefight, etc. NOT what Weasel thought was appropriate to post a photo of. Which has nothing to do with what I was talking about.

Legion 4:

Why even think about resurrecting one of the greatest blights on human civilisation in the 20th century to combat a comparatively minor blight in the 21st Century? True terrorism is still a very marginal problem in most of the world. The military actions of peoples to resist the encroachment of foreign invaders into their lands and lives should not be defined as 'terrorism' but as 'resistance'. Even if they use guerrila tactics which appear to be similar to those used by terrorists, their motives for fighting are different. If you call what they are doing 'non-state-actor terrorism' then what you, their opponents, are doing is 'state terrorism'. You came to their lands to make war, not the other way around.

Your ideas may win the fire-fight or even the battle but these ideas will certainly lose the war and doom the prospects for peace. Your mistake is in thinking you can distil out the savage tactics from an evil ideology which gave birth to them. But you can't separate the inhumane tactics from the brutal ideology which allowed their use. To use the same tactics makes you no different from the monsters of the past who used them, even if you believe your cause or creed is different from theirs and is a just one. The justification may be different but the evil is the same. I believe that you can't see that core moral hazard and are thus very wrong in your advocacy.

On a military level your ideas are also doomed to fail. If by killing ten 'terrorists' you end up inducing twenty more to join their ranks then you will lose the war. You will also throw away any opportunity for lasting peace and coexistence with the greater populations you are also attacking and killing in order to get at the 'terrorists' in their midst. If you accelerate the violence to kill more 'terrorists' you will likely also accelerate the recruitment of many more who will violently oppose you. This will result in a rapidly escalating but one-sided war of attrition which will spiral out of control. However, the West (except you and a small minority of like-minded extreme militarists) does not have the stomach or the political tolerance/will to support such a uni-directional and escalating war of attrition/slaughter against such foes and their innocent neighbours so you will eventually lose your support and your fight. This loss will happen despite the increased brutality which you are advocating here, for it will cause your own people to recoil from your savage methods, abandon your cause and abjure your ghastly methods. The only way to forestall such a popular mutiny of the citizenry in a world of easy communications is to impose an anti-democratic authoritarianism upon them and remove their ability to oppose militaristic nationalism. Then at some point the people will see you as the new blight, the Neu-SS which must be purged and neutralised from their own midst. One day they will be searching US barracks for the memorabilia of your folly and seizing these keep-sakes in order to suppress your brutal legacy.

Germany learned the hard way what a self-destructive and toxic brew is the mixing of extreme militarism and nationalist "exceptionalism". So why would you want to repeat the errors of the past and inflict this evil cocktail on your own country? That is why the German authorities are justified in searching barracks for Nazi memorabilia and rooting out this toxic mixture of the mind which you now advocate, before it poisons their whole society again. The US and the West should learn from the Germans and turn their backs on such an ill-considered recommendation. But they probably won't before a great many more have died and suffered needlessly following your recommended path. That is the myopic tragedy of the human condition. We wilfully follow maniacs and fools who urge us to turn on our fellow human beings in pursuit of what is 'right' and for material gain, martial valour and national pride. Such vain glory, such arrogance, such hubris; I despair for us all.

Rod Robertson.

As usual I disagree with you … on so many levels. However, you too miss my point. But I'd expect no less from all intellectual, academic, SJW, P.C. types. So again your opinions do not surprise me. And in many cases your take on military history and military subjects is tainted/colored by a SJW, etc. outlook which you let us know about often. On a site about war gaming and military history.

But let's see if I can get pased you filter from reality and pragmatism. When I play a game of AH SL. In a scenario of the SS vs. the Russian Guards. I'm not concerned about all the atrocities, etc. that occurred in the war between the two belligerents. I'm playing a game … I want to see how these two units do in a simulation of the this scenario.

If I only play games where neither side in reality was brutal, ruthless, etc. Then we could only play "Shoots & Ladders", etc.

Your ideas may win the fire-fight or even the battle

Yes, that is what I was trained and paid to do.

You came to their lands to make war, not the other way around.

9/11 and the USMC barracks before that are just two of the reasons the US became involved with these type of individuals.

But you can't separate the inhumane tactics from the brutal ideology which allowed their use.

Yes, if you call ambushes, raids, airstrikes etc. as inhuman then you really don't know what your talking about in this arena.

Even if they use guerrila tactics which appear to be similar to those used by terrorists, their motives for fighting are different.

Does not matter in a firefight. All that matters is the enemy is eliminated.

Your mistake is in thinking you can distil out the savage tactics from an evil ideology which gave birth to them.

The US does not do many, many of the things the SS, Daesh, AQ, etc. did/do. Generally 99% of the time the US follows the GCs, etc. Are well executed ambushes and raids that kill the enemy and gains intel, etc. is savage ? Then again, you really don't understand the dynamics of small unit military ops … again …

escalating war of attrition/slaughter against such foes and their innocent neighbours

You mean collateral damage ? Well of course you do. that is your mantra. And again as I have said this before. If the US was not concerned about CD. There would a lot of places that would look like a moonscape. And that is without using WMDs. E.g. Mosul would not be still be in contention.

If by killing ten 'terrorists' you end up inducing twenty more to join their ranks then you will lose the war.

I think that paradigm has long passed. If the enemy brings in reinforcements, replaces dead commanders, etc. They will be killed in combat ops too. If we didn't kill the enemie's reinforcements or leaders, we will certainly lose any conflict. At least on a tactical level.

I guess the US should have withdrawn from Normandy when the Germans sent in more units to repulse the invasion. Or the UK should have pulled out of NA when the Germans landed the 10 Pz Divs, etc. After the Germans withdrew West from El Alamein. And across most of Egypt and Libya … You sure are quite a tactician and strategist if you believe that.

One day they will be searching US barracks for the memorabilia of your folly and seizing these keep-sakes in order to suppress your brutal legacy.

Don't be so dramatic. I'd and other US officers that I knew would never allow any Nazi type memorabilia, etc., in the barracks or elsewhere. If you'd been in the military you'd know that.

I don't see the folly of studying German(and IJFs) WWII Military Combat ops and tactics, etc. That is the way you learn, etc. It would be folly not to. But you don't have to fly a swastika or Rising Sun to do that. I would not allow that in my units. Nor would any other officer worth his rank.

That is the myopic tragedy of the human condition. We wilfully follow maniacs and fools who urge us to turn on our fellow human beings in pursuit of what is 'right' and for material gain, martial valour and national pride. Such vain glory, such arrogance, such hubris; I despair for us all.

Where do you get such drama ? Do you have Hollywood write your posts? I'm talking about fighting a game between the Nazis and Daesh, AQ, etc. types.

Really you and some that believe like you really need to try decaf. You all just come off sounding like a drama queens at a protest march. When I state it would be interesting to see how the Nazis and Daesh/AQ, etc. in a small unit level action. Would fight and who'd "win", etc. I'm not advocating either of their dogmas, etc. And IMO the Nazis would "win" …

For you and those that think like you … I despair for us all ! Geez ! It's like saying I like Russian salad dressing and tea biscuits so I'm an advocate of Stalin and Putin. Good heavens !!!!

Wow. Did this thread take a sideways twist or what?

SJW?

When did it become okay to be pro-Nazi and anti-social justice? Isn't justice a good thing?

Why is Legion 4 posting on the UM Warfare Board? I thought he was banned from posting here. Was a cross-posting later removed so it just seems as if he posted here. If so, well, fairs rair and that's that. But if he's back here on the UMW board then this does not bode well for the future. Until he can better control his musings it would be wiser to hold him at bay I think, as is amply demonstrated by this thread's train-wreck.

Sorry for being so blunt, Legion, but there is more at stake here than just your feelings.

Rod Robertson.

I interrupted my daily tree hugging to read through this a couple of times, and all I see is a passing comment suggesting that Legion 4 sees the methods employed by ISIS to be as horrific as those of the Nazis.

The direction of this "discussion" strikes me as being out of context with the comment.

More importantly, Russian dressing and tea biscuits sounds like a horrible idea.

all I see is a passing comment

Then I suggest a third run-through.

I think Legion's thesis goes something like this:

Irrespective of their motivations and ideology, the men of the Wehrmacht, Fallschirmjager and Waffen SS were generally well trained, organized, commanded and motivated soldiers who fought effectively and bravely against opponents more numerous and well-equipped than their own.

That's what we're called upon to refute here.

Except that he didn't refer to the Wermacht,Fallschirmjager,or Waffen SS. He cited "Nazis","neo-Nazis, "SS", and "Nazis/SS". Repeatedly.

And mused about how these groups might be more effective fighting terrorists than,presumably, those fighting them now,because they are more "ruthless" and "efficient".

I'll leave it there,since,as Bill has moved the thread, Legion can't come on here to respond,and anything further would be unfair.

That OP story is crazy.

Want an undesirable political group within your own ethnicity to grow?

Easy, drive it underground where they'll blend in and you can't see it or track it.

Want it to gain notoriety?

Easy, act all panicked and fearful at the sight of anything that represents it.

Dan
PS. As for the discussion that ensued, I don't know what the hell happened there. :)

Exactly cacique – as Mark Steyn notes regularly when discussing free speech issues, suppression merely puts things underground where you end up being taken by surprise when it has metastasized and breaks into the open.

Better to see it in the open and be able to determine what the attraction is and devise counters to that.

So you guys wouldn't object to a few tasteful shrines to "Uncle Adolf" at Fort Bragg,say?

Don't worry--I'm being facetious.

I think.

Hafen,

I guess I could put it this way … how do armies elsewhere in the West handle it?

Would they handle each incident as it happens, without much attention from the outside, or would they publicly announce an all-out search of all barracks like they're doing in Germany?

The German approach seems to show frantic fear, almost panic. And that's definitely something you do not want to see in your military. All that does is encourage the tiny number who are provoking that reaction.

Dan

SJW?

Should I be concerned that Legion 4 appears so against absolutely everything that I might have to say?

;-)

@Cacique and goragrad

You have to understand. Unlike Japan, the Germans are still wracked with guilt from the atrocities their forefathers committed over 70 years ago. What you see as irrational overreaction is merely the normal response ingrained in their collective psyche and national identity since the end of WWII.

To quote my German friend, a Christian Socialist:

"Oh, we are all very sad about the war in Germany."
"Really?"
"Yes. Very sad we lost."

It was a joke. But an interesting one.

28mm Fanatik,

I thoroughly understand why they react this way, believe me.

But I still think that the end result of their overreaction will be to bring about the growth of an even more dangerous movement than even the Nazis were (if that's even possible). Perhaps worse in the sense of more cautious, because of how they had to adapt underground and because they'll have before them more than half a century's worth of every possible analysis of why the Nazis failed.

Dan

There are fascist, racists and undesirables in all of the Armed Forces of the world as there is in any large group of people. But for the Officers to look the other way and have those items on view is totally unacceptable.

The world can deal with its problems with the forces it has, we do not need to arm and encourage any neo SS units to fight for us.

The Heer fought for their country the SS fought for Hitler if I wanted a force that could murder innocents I would chose the Daesh or the SS.

If I wanted a force to fight to protect the meek, the innocent, democracy and freedom. All but one of the NATO countries, any of the EU countries, all but four of the Asean countries, any of the Anzus countries. Japan. The list is endless.

Ok, fine. Then we should have the same reaction over pictures and memorabilia of Stalin and Mao as we do with those of Hitler.

All or nothing. Genocide is genocide, and those 3 are at the top.

Dan

The German military and its troubled traditions

"The Bundeswehr has taken on a spring cleaning operation. Revelations that two soldiers had been planning a "false flag" terrorist attack in Germany – and to lay the blame on asylum seekers – led to wider questions firstly about the prevalence of neo-Nazis in the German military, and then about the way the Bundeswehr deals with connections to its Nazi-era forerunner: Adolf Hitler's Wehrmacht.

Defense Minister Ursula von der Leyen promised a series of reforms that would both clarify the army's connection with its own history, improve "political education" in its ranks and make it easier for soldiers to report far-right incidents among their peers.

But there are also to be some cosmetic alterations: Bundeswehr Inspector General Volker Wieker, Germany's highest-ranking soldier, ordered a search of all barracks for Wehrmacht helmets, rifles and other memorabilia, and there were also plans to rename a handful of barracks that still bore the names of World-War-II era officers…"
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Amicalement
Armand

Considering how many MG3s are physically MG42s with the swastika ground off the receiver (about half, IIRC), makes me wonder just how much other "Nazi paraphernalia" was simply old gear in the barracks.

After some seventy-five years, probably about zero percent.

You always find something in old barracks. We did, when we were little and jumped fences to play and explore around a couple of abandoned ones.

Dan

@Darth: You'd be surprised. There are still M2 .50cals in active service in the US Army with serial numbers dating from Korea. (And last week I found a 1918-vintage Colt 1911 pistol in the local "expensive hobby" store.)

If it's been taken care of, firearms last a really really long time.

I used to go into the armoury of HQ Troop, Household Cavalry Regiment, at Combermere Barracks in Windsor fairly regularly as a cadet in 18 Troop HCR (ACF). They had weapons in there ranging from AK- series war trophies to Lee Enfields, Bren guns, the odd Luger and Mauser broomhandle… not to mention various officers' shotguns, and all the official stuff too. That was back in the early 2000s.