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"Gaming Agincourt with 28mm?" Topic


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Captain Gideon01 May 2017 10:12 a.m. PST

Since I've gotten into 28mm Medieval gaming I've had this question which has been nagging me and that is how many 28mm figures would it take to recreate Agincourt?

Since I don't know any of the rules that well I don't know what the scale of how many men a 28mm figure equals,for example in many Napoleonic rules using 15mm one mini equals 60 men.

What do you think.

Michael

Mick in Switzerland01 May 2017 10:21 a.m. PST

Here is a thread describing my Agincourt project with 216 Perry figures.
link

Marshal Mark01 May 2017 10:37 a.m. PST

Most ancient and medieval rules don't specify a figure to man (or unit to man) ratio. Also some rules don't specify how many figures should be in a unit. So really it's up to you how many you want to use. At the smaller end of the scale (in terms of figure number) would be DBA, where you would need about 30 – 40 figures per side. In many other rules you'd probably typically use double to triple that number for a large medieval battle, and the upper limit would only depend on what you afford / paint / fit on the table.

DColtman01 May 2017 1:25 p.m. PST

I am working on a HYW project in 28mm using To the Strongest for rules to be played on a 6x4 table. I am planning 12 foot or 5-6 mounted figs per "unit" and will play with about 15 units per side. That would be about 300 figs or so, and my stuff is mounted on a 20mm frontage per figure (pretty similar scaling to wht Mick shared). These numbers give a reasonable 2h game for an Agincourt-like scenario for TTS or alternatives such as WAB or Hail Caesar or Big Battle DBA and I find at this point that more figures give diminishing returns due to space & time limits – unless you go to a bigger table!

That probably scales to like 50 men per fig or so but I don't usually calculate things that way. I often find that scaling my armies in size and composition to Big Battle DBA equivalents (so 36 bases – 3 times the size of a DBA army) is my yardstick for a 6 x 4 table ancients/medieval game. That's often how I plan a project to give me goals and milestones for purchasing and painting.

Great War Ace01 May 2017 6:10 p.m. PST

link In our rules, the base frontage determines the head count. The most commonly used bases in the ancmed "period" are 20mm frontage per infantry figure (20mm to large 25s or 28mm). And 25mm frontages per cavalry figure. The head count is 60 men and 50 men respectively.

The English army has anywhere from c. 4K longbowmen and 900 MAAs, to c. 7K longbowmen and 1500 MAAs, depending on which seminal treatment you agree with. The "old guys" of the 19th century, and their successors, e.g. Oman and Brune, hold to the smaller numbers. Anne Curry introduced the larger English army with great conviction, imho.

The French army according to "the old guys" was huge, at least 20K plus. But Curry, again, limits it to c. 12K.

A thousand mounted MAAs would require 20 figures on 25mm bases. Six thousand French in the first battle would require 100 miniatures on 20mm bases. The English army would have 15 to 25 MAA on foot, and 67 to 117 longbowmen.

Captain Gideon01 May 2017 7:32 p.m. PST

Great War Ace with what I have for the French and English I'm part way there at least with the French and I have:

22-Mounted Knights/MAA
180 plus Knights/MAA and other foot troops(this includes Crossbowmen and Mercenaries)

As for the English I have:
100 plus Longbowmen
40 plus Knights/MAA and other foot troops

At this time I'm planning on adding more French and some more English including some Mounted Knights.

With regards to basing now the bulk of my French foot troops are based on 2 pence coins while some are on 25mm bases as I'm still painting French as I write this.

As for the English since almost all my English are painted most of them are on square bases and a smaller number are on washers and also on US pennies.

Regarding the square bases I don't know the measurements of them.

It is my intention to keep adding to both armies for a period of time.

Although my main problem is still finding a set of rules to use now I do have 3 sets already which are:

Lion Rampant
Revenge
Might of Arms

But I'll still search for a set to use.

Great War Ace02 May 2017 8:12 a.m. PST

US pennies, ah yes, that would be what my "revolting peasant women and children" are based on.

Otherwise, square bases of the sizes I mentioned.

Larger bases for infantry would be: 25mm frontage equals 80 men; 30mm frontage equals 100 men.

It looks like you are already there to game Agincourt the way I do it. :)

Captain Gideon02 May 2017 11:48 a.m. PST

I just measured the square bases of the English and they're 1"x 1" but at least I can tell them apart.

For myself I do want to get more Mounted French and some other foot troops as well.

But again getting a set of rules apart from the 3 I have and sticking to one seems hard so I'll have to keep looking.

French Wargame Holidays09 Oct 2018 7:19 a.m. PST

When complete Inwill have around 280 English and nearly 400 french, but not specifically for Agincourt, based for Impetus.

Cheers
Matt
Mayenne, France

Thomas Thomas09 Oct 2018 8:01 a.m. PST

Here's the scenario we provide in Knights & Knaves – the Olde World Expansion:

Battle of Agincourt
This battle is loosely based on the historical battle of Agincourt fought in 1415 and made famous by Shakespeare's play Henry the Fifth. Though fought between the French and the English in the Hundred Years War, in a fantasy setting you may depict both armies as rival Franconian factions or substitute the High Elves (with Wood Elf Allies) for the English and either a Franconian or Empire Army for the French.

You can also substitute a Vampire Count Army for the French. The Marshall of France becomes a Level 3 Mage Reanimator General. The Stubborn nobles become Vampire Knights and the Reserve Skeletons Riders. All Foot become Undead. (See the Vampire Counts Army List below.)

The Armies:
Henry V & the English
Henry V & his household knights 1 Foot Hero General.
English Men at Arms 2 HF w/Swords.
English archers 5 MF w/Longbows & Stakes.
Archer Guard 1 MF w/Longbow, Stakes & Hackneys.

Ally
Welsh archers – 2 Fast MF w/Longbow.

The French
Marshall of France 1 HF w/Sword & Heavy Armor General.
Dismounted Men at Arms 4 HF w/Sword.
Town Militia 2 HF w/Spear
Town Missilemen 2 MF w/Crossbow

Ally
Stubborn nobles 2 Knights

Ally
Stubborn nobles 2 Knights

Ally
Reserve 2 MM w/Lances


The French are the Attackers in this scenario so set up second and moves second. The French may not Dismount any Mounted.

Terrain & Deployment
The English must select 4 Woods and 4 Fields (and no other Terrain). The Woods must be placed in the left and right table zones (2 per zone). The Fields must be placed at least partially in the central zone.

Victory Conditions
Standard Victory Conditions.

Larger Battle
For a more a larger version of this battle, add two more Battles to the English army identical to Henry's command except that they do not get the Archer Guard or the Welsh Alley. Replace Henry's Stand with a Battle Commander.
For the French double the number of Dismounted Men at Arms in the Marshall's command but remove the Town troops (both Stubborn noble Allies remain in the Marshall's command). Double the number of Town troops and add a HF w/Sword & Heavy Armor as a Battle Commander. Finally double the Reserve and add a Knight Stand as a Battle Commander.

As to figure count we use standard 60mm wide basing for 25/8mm.

Heavy Foot (HF) are mounted 4 per base and Medium Foot (MF) three per base. (Depth is also standard: 20mm for close order and 30mm for "Fast" loose order). Medium Mounted (MM) and Knights are three per base (if you use Perry Brothers these are the standard bases that come with the Mounted sets).

For the small game you'll need: 12 English Men at Arms (one has to look like Henry!); 18 Longbowmen (3 should be green/white liveried Archer Guard) and 6 unarmored Welsh).

For the French you'll need: 20 men at arms; 8 Spearmen; 6 Crossbowmen; 12 Knights and 6 "lesser" mounted.

Should be within the budget and figure collection of most gamers.

Thomas J. Thomas
Fame & Glory Games

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