"Looking for veterans and experts: 1985 Cold War gone HOT!" Topic

Dear miniature gamers.

I'm producing the PC game Escalation 1985 and I'm looking for folks to ask questions and to join us in conversations about the details of tactics, gear, soldiering, TO&Es, etc. I know there are some extremely knowledgeable folks on this board, so hoping you would lend an ear or a hand.

Our emphasis is fairly heavy on vehicles and we'd love to talk to those that have driven, operated, repaired or even fought in them.

Specifically, we are doing the M60 Patton at the moment and we're hoping to find someone to help us be informed about the quirks and "charms" of operating it. The stuff you won't find in the manuals.

There are things that are incredibly hard to find images and videos of, like how the view through night visions equipment of the day looked and how (in)effective it was. On both sides of the Iron Curtain, I might add.

We have tons of questions that we'd want someone who was there at the time to weigh in on, like what gear and in what numbers would be carried in APCs? What real life changes to doctrine did mechanized infantry in the Fulda Gap make? What did the prepared fighting positions look like? We have the FMs and such but nothing beats real life experience.

We are focusing on the US and Soviet armies first and then the two German armies with the British and Czech to follow.

For more details about our game I recommend the excellent introduction by Matsimus: YouTube link

Our website is escalation1985.com and we have a support page with frequent updates here: patreon.com/escalation1985

I hope to have sparked your interest.

Well I was mostly in the Mech Infantry during that time period. Commanded an M113 Mech Company. Although my Company was frequently cross-attached to an M60 Tank Bn.

like what gear and in what numbers would be carried in APCs?

Do you mean how many troop and weapons, etc., ?

The standard 11 man Squad was 2 Fire Tms of 5 + 1 Sqd Ldr

Fires Tms were armed with :

TM A
1 M203 GL
1 M249 SAW
1 M60 MG
2 M16s

TM B
1 M203 GL
1 M249 SAW
1 M47 MAW
2 M16s

+ the Squad Ldr – was between the two Tms or moved with the Lead Tm usually.

The M113 always had the Driver and Track Commander(who also manned the .50) So the Squad dismounts would be reduced to 9. Organized same as above. But Fire Tms had 4 + the Sqd Ldr. As I said, who would usually be positioned between the Tms or with the Lead Tm.

The Driver & TC usually were armed with M16s. All members of the Squad were cross trained with all weapons in the Squad. So no heavy weapon went unmanned, etc.

M72 LAWs were issued like hand grenades. As needed and were considered disposable munitions. I.e. could only be used once, obviously. Usually 1 or 2 LAWs would be issued to those carrying M16s or maybe the M203 while dismounted. The other heavier weapons had enough to carry. With Ammo etc.

Extra ammo would be carried on the track.

The M47 would usually only carry one missile when dismounted. With a few extra rounds on the track 2-3 maybe. The M47 could be mounted on the M113, but I can't remember ever doing that. And you'd have to dismount the .50 IIRC.

The M60 had an Assistant Gunner carrying extra ammo. Usually carrying an M16.

The dismounted Squad usually packed a PRC-77 radio. The Squad Ldr may have ended up carrying that. As you can see the 9 man Squad was packing a lot of equipment. So when in doubt, carry all your heavy weapons.

The Company had 32 NVGs PVS-5. However we only have 5. Were short the rest. And frequently 2-3 were down for Maint.

What real life changes to doctrine did mechanized infantry in the Fulda Gap make?

No real changes IIRC. The standard Infantry/Mech Infantry tactics were in effect, regardless of terrain. But generally in that type of terrain, you'd want set up on the high ground with good FOF/LOS, etc. And use terrain to cover/mask your movements & positions, etc. But that was pretty much the standard anywhere.

As well as don't be wedded to being road bound. Be prepared to go dismounted, thru forests/woods, etc. And leave the Tracks behind if need be. Under command of the XO or 1SG. Then they link up with you later. Or Vis-versa. Again that is pretty much standard Grunt stuff.

What did the prepared fighting positions look like?

Pretty much like in the FMs. But in many cases you could only set up a Hasty Defense if you stopped for any short amount of time. Maybe overnight.

No matter what – Always used good field craft techniques, Camo, Cover & Concealment.

Priorities of work : Security and commo are always tops.

Set up a 180 With interlocking FOF. Maybe set up LP/OPs and/or send out a Squad or Fire Team sized local patrol(s).

Because the standard generally was always keep moving. Mobile Combined Arms Warfare Doctrine, etc.

A Deliberate Defense takes much more time. Digging the standard Inf fighting positions like in the FMs, etc. For both the standard Inf fighting positions and the MG/M47 Dragon positions, etc.

Clear FOF/LOS.

Try to cover your positions with 18 inches of solid cover. E.g. logs, dirt, etc.

Possibly set up obstacles, mines, etc.

Again LP/OPs and local patrolling.

Camo everything with nets and local foliage. Replace as needed as the foliage dries out, etc.

Step up Range Cards for MGs, etc.

Dismount the M2 .50 cal. from the Track and dig in as in the FMs. Rarely did we dismount the .50, only in a Deliberate Defense. If then …

Hope that helps ?

prepared fighting positions} ? the West German Govt would not allow them. the Blade tank could scrape up a mound of dirt about 4 ft high. we'd love to talk to those that have driven, operated, repaired} you haven't lived till you drive in black out drive during a night road march in a Maneuver Area.

Yeah an M60 MBT position was a lot bigger than an Infantryman's. But again we rarely set up a Deliberate Defense. And yes, the maneuver damage caused by it would be pretty big regardless. However, I was trying to explain what we would do in war time situation. That is what I thought he asked about. For war gaming purposes ? War gaming in Peace time would not be too much fun !

Like in peace time you couldn't move thru, e.g. field of beets(or Gin Sing when I was in the ROK), etc. But if the " hit the fan" pretty sure those restrictions would no longer be in effect … I hope ?!

I am a former intelligence analyst that did a lot of live work on the European theater during the late cold war and lots of study of the theater prior. I actively worked the mission from 1988 to 1992 and studied order of battle, strategy, tactics, electronic warfare capabilities, etc of Soviet forces in that theater. I was with the 10th Mountain Division (Light Infantry) during that time and can provide some of the MTOE of that division from back then and I have quite a bit of information on Soviet order of battle.

Just let me know if I can be of help.

If you need any information about the Soviet army of this period – you can contact me.

By the way, if possible, fix the soviet binocular – it does not look like one of those actually used in the 1980s.
The main binoculars were B-6, B-8, B-12 and B-15. Here is briefly about them: nastavleniya.ru/BIN/bin1.htm
Army binoculars must have a rangefinder net.
In addition to the usual, there were binoculars and with the ability to observe infrared targets on the principle of a thermal imager.
In principle, according to words "Бинокль Б-6", "Бинокль Б-8", "Бинокль Б-12" and "Бинокль Б-15" there are many of their photographs.

G2 first at 3 (UK) Armd Div and then 33 (UK) Armd Bde. 86-88. Then a few years later instructing Photographic Interpretation using GSFG/Berlin Corridor Imagery as a basis,

Tally Ho!

There's a couple of guys over at the GHQ forums who operated M-60s in Germany at that time, as well as M-60A2s.

You may also want to hop over to the Matrix games forum for Flashpoint Red Storm: some really knowledgeable people on there.

During a lot of the Cold War, infantry squads could be/were frequently understrength by a man or two.

That was a norm generally. But I usually had a full strength Plt or later Mech Company on paper. However, with leaves, injuries, being assigned for "special duties", like the CSM's painting detail, provide OPFOR for one of the schools, etc., etc.

But I had a full roster, full of names of real soldiers that I saw daily in most cases. But then some were gone for all the reasons I listed and more. And in most cases returned shortly in the near future.

The worst I saw it was when I was a bright shiny newly minted 2LT in the 101, '80-'81. My Rifle Plt was usually up to full strength. But the Company was short one Rifle Plt.

An 18th ABN Corps, RDF unit … the Company was only :

2 Rifle Plts
1 81mm Mortar Plt

We were also short a Mortar PL. So sometimes based on the situation I filled in. I was trained on the 81's basic operation, firing, etc. All Infantry Officers were. So it was no big deal. And the Mortar Crews pretty much knew what to do.

Just like when I was away from my Rifle Plt with the 81s, etc. My PSG was a Vietnam Vet as well as a few others were in the Plt. The Plt Leadership almost always knew what to do and what had to happen.

yes tank crews where the same most tanks where short a crew member . very few had a full 4 man crew .

one of the quirks about the M60 was it creeps very quietly . during an ARTEP at Hohenfels in 82 we got thru an Infantry postion at night moving like this.

I remember during REFORGER '88. My Mech Co. went on a Plt (+) sized, night Recon/Raid Patrol. On an OPFOR "Canuck" Leo Co. in an NDP in a small German village.

We were moving between two of what I thought were buildings. Moved along the one on the left. Then crossed the alley and when I got to the "other" house … It was a Leo (!!!!). I had to actually touch this "mass" in the dark to find out it was an MBT … not a house.
DOH !!!!
I always was an advocate of the dismounted night ops. We did that as a standard back in the 101. When I was a PL …

I was out on the turret one night and dropped my steel pot, I could not find it till morning you really don't know dark until you can't see more than 3 feet in front of you. Tank plts always have a dismounted LP/OP out to the back of the position
.

Yep … darker than most can imagine. It got so very dark in the jungles of Panama. We'd set up an ambush or go NDP just as it was getting dusk/EENT. Then waited until "Stand-to"/dawn/BMNT. Even with NVGs you wouldn't move very far. The old ones, PVS-5s IIRC, lacked good depth perception. You don't want to be wandering around the jungle when you're not sure where the ground is in comparison to your foot.

Then if a monkey got into the positions. Looking for food. They knew GIs always had something to eat. Then all HL broke loose ! It is their jungle … we were just "visiting" …

Legion 4, so there would be 2 M249 SAWs and 1 M60 in each squad? Would the squad leader also have a grenade launcher or just a normal M16?

The people at this yahoo group can provide you with a lot of detailed information
link

Fallout … Yes, as I posted above the Squad would have a total of 2 M249s, 2 M203s, 1 M60 MG and 1 M47 Dragon MAW. Divided among the 2 Fire Tms as I posted:

The standard 11 man Squad was 2 Fire Tms of 5 + 1 Sqd Ldr

Fires Tms were armed with :

TM A
1 M203 GL
1 M249 SAW
1 M60 MG
2 M16s

TM B
1 M203 GL
1 M249 SAW
1 M47 MAW
2 M16s

One Fire Tm would have the M60 and the other the M47 MAW. The SL depending on the situation, and troops available, could carry either the M16 or M203.

If you are short troops, the SL would probably carry the M203. It also depends on the Cdr's guidance. Mine was all heavy weapons were issued first. It's all about firepower and fire superiority.

Excellent information all around. I thank you very much.

What kinds of hand grenades would have been used in 1985? I mean Willy Pete, Thermite? Offensive/Defensive if that was even a thing?

We had all types … HE, Frag, Blast, Willy P, Thermite, Smoke, even CS[Tear Gas] …

Offensive/Defensive

All could be used for either … depending on terrain and situation. Basically the rule with Hand Grenades – just don't be in the blast area/zone.

Thermite was a heavy mutha'. You couldn't throw it very far. It was good for "spiking" guns, etc. Place on/in the tube or breach … pull the pin … and run ! It could burn thru a Buick's engine block.

Excellent, thanks!

Were all these types of grenades to be found in the APCs or were they issued directly? Were there some randomness to it or a strict plan? I am trying to get at how we should distribute them and in what numbers.

Grenades were issued along with any other type of ammo, including M72 LAWs. These were issued to the Plt Sgt usually. Distributed to the Squad Ldrs, who gave them to the troopers.

Ammo is not issued to the "APC" per se, but the weapons of the Plt and the troops who are using those weapons. Save for i.e. .50 ammo or Tank rounds. However the Tankers don't have to hump the tank ammo. Any farther than to the ammo bids, etc., in the MBTs, etc.

And basically a trooper with an M16 has 7 – 30 rd. mags.
In 2 ammo pouches on his LBE. 3 mags per pouch. + one in the M16. Extra ammo would be carried in their rucksacks, etc. And of course on the Track. In a firefight the two most important supplies are ammo and water.

Maybe 3-4 grenades per soldier on his LBE, etc. Remember everything that is issued has to be carried by the dismounted soldier or left in the track. If the soldier is carrying a heavy weapon. He probably won't be carrying to many grenades if any. He's got enough to hump.

Everything you carry adds weight to your "load". You don't want to be burdened with too much equipment to the point where you can move very fast or very far.

LAWs would usually only issued to soldiers carrying M16s. And/or left in the Track.

On occasions the Grunts have to dismount the .50 and hump that heavy SOB. But usually not too far. You are not going to hump a 123 lbs. M2 .50 and ammo into the attack like an M60 or M249.

The only "plan" is based on the Plt Ldrs' guidance from the Co Cdr's plans/OPORD, etc. And the ammo was issued based on the Cdrs' guidance from the Bn Cdr/S3(Ops officer)'s plan, guidance, intent, etc.

The ammo is distributed by the Bn S4(Log Officer)'s Support Plt.
And again, everything is based on the terrain & situation, the units are operating in.

I know of no "plan", per se. It was "random" again base on the mission/op. And sometimes you got issued ammo you may not have requested.

Most ammo issue was always based generally on FMs' standards of how many troops are in the Plts, etc. Unless ordered otherwise. E.g. the an attached MBT Co. may or may not need a reload for the MBT's main gun, etc..

The Bn S4, basically knows the strength of those units. From the TO&Es and the strength numbers from S3. Based on those TO&Es plus any attached units. E.g. an attached Tank Co to the Bn Task Force. The S4 has to provide all classes of supply from ammo, chow, fuel, toilet paper, etc.

E.g. during ops in the ROK. Our Mech Bn TF had an attached Tank Company(M60s) and attached USMC Company. So at that time, the TF organization :

3 Mech Cos

1 AT Co

1 HHC which included the Bn Sct and 4.2 inch Mortar Plts

Attached units :

1 Tank Co

1 USMC Company (they were dismounted and had to ride on the back of the Tanks)

So the short answer is no grenades were found in the APC. Those were issued to the troops of that APC generally.

There was generally no strict plan, more "randomness" based on the TO&Es, unit strength on hand, the mission based on the Bn Cdr's OPORD/guidance, etc.

Basically Ammo would be issued based on all the factors I have posted here.

Fantastic! This is the level of detail that will make our game interesting.

What types of ammunition would be carried by the M60s and M1s in the Fulda Gap in 1985?

I have planned to give the commander and driver the ability to use their sidearms from the hatches, but which?

Would the driver and gunner be issued M3A1 Grease Guns? I assume the tank commander was?

The players will be able to abandon the tanks and keep fighting on foot when the commander orders them to.

What types of ammunition would be carried by the M60s and M1s in the Fulda Gap in 1985?

I'm not entirely sure. I know that are some Tankers here who would do a better telling what the basic load was.

I have planned to give the commander and driver the ability to use their sidearms from the hatches, but which?

As far as side arms, I know they were either carrying a Colt .45 or Baretta 9mm 92SB. Based on the exact time frame. I don't know if the packed anything heavier … maybe an M-3 Grease Gun or two. The interior of an MBT is not really "roomie". Again we need a Tanker to give a thumbs up or not

Would the driver and gunner be issued M3A1 Grease Guns?

I assume the tank commander was? Again not sure
I'll find a Tanker. Besides now I want to know what I forgot.

The players will be able to abandon the tanks and keep fighting on foot when the commander orders them to.

I'm sure they could abandon the tank. If it was damaged to the point of being "None Mission Capable". And I don't think they'd go after the enemy. For a number of reasons. IMO, they'd most likely try to keep a low profile, E&E and get back to Higher HQ.

E.g. during an exercise in the CA/NV desert[the NTC] @ 1988. My Mech Company as usual was crossed attached to Bde's Tank Bn. The Tank Bn Cdr's M60 was "KO'd". He called me to pick him up in my M113 Cmd Track. And he'd fight the "war" from there …

As a tank platoon leader and a cavalry platoon leader, I never was issued a grease gun. Everybody had pistols in the tank and one or two grease guns were assigned to the tank to be used by anybody. From talking with my soldiers who had served in Vietnam, the use of extra none authorized weapons were common. They would carry as part of stowage, m16, ak47, shotguns and m203s.
As the TC you were responsible for keeping the 50 cal in action as well as controlling the tanks actions and in the case of the platoon leader controlling the platoons maneuver as well as keeping the company commander advised.
As a cavalry commander under the H-toe , controlling 10 platoon vehicles over a km or more was very hard.

Basic math ammo was sabot, heat, hep and only a couple of rounds of wood. The rounds are listed most to least.
In the Sheridan, there was mostly the 152mm hep and the beehive round. We was not assigned since each track had six smoke grenade launchers. The Shilleigh was a large misleading and each track was lucky to carry four. WP smoke support was also provided by the attached 4.2" mortars.

Abandon the tracks and E&E. no fighting. Most likely you were taken out by a tank or buttoned up bmp. No organized fight. You were expected to rally at a specific point in the rear, if you got there before the enemy.we were on the defense in Europe and we tested throughout the late 1970s the use of propositioned supply, fuel an ammo which in most cases were unguarded. The expectation was to produce a static battle line and withdraw as platoons to resupply. Personnel replacements were available easier than a replacement AFV.
A strategic trick was to keep the momentum in an offensive action. You often exceeded your ability to get re supplied. Logistics on the tactical level is something often over looked in a tactical game. As a divisional and corps staff officer at the G1 shop and a quartermaster at several levels as well, the importance of logistics and a COSCOM is real.

In regards to armored cavalry, in the old H system we had infantry and scouts who could still fight if their track was disabled but continuing to fight was not a secondary order. They all were expected to continue to retreat in a delaying operation and rally at a supply point and provide security there. While at the quartermaster school, one of my assignments as an experienced combat arms officer was to write a detailed summary of all of the dangers that supply units could face in an OPFOR operation. The summary was eye opening and disheartening.

The secondary security mission of the cavalry was dependent on the number of tracks that made it back to the rally point.we really depended on our Air Cav brothers on several occasions to pull us out of dire situations during the DRS tests.

Thanks Rudy …

IIRC, The only M3s that were in a Mech Bn were 1 or 2 in our 2 M88 Heavy Rec Vehs.

Really M88 in a Mch Ben? When I was in, they were assigned to tank battalions and Engineer battalions. The small M571, iirc the code, was the smaller vehicle for Sheridans and M113s.

We're Bradlys that heavy so they needed the M88?

A Bradley is 35 tons…

Yes I was in a 3 M113 Mech Bns '84-'90. We had 2 M88s and 4-5 M578s the Light Tracked Recovery Veh. But yes, the Armor and CEs in our Sep Mech Bde had M88s as well.

Having had the joy of being an S4 and BMO [at both Bn & Bde] before I became a Mech Co. Cdr. I was "intimately" aware of the TO&Es and assets in the Motor Pool(s).

As many of us know who have served in Mech, Tank, CAV, CEs, etc., units. Those types of duty positions are not "glamourous" as the being a PL or Cdr. But we know you can't fight if you can't "Shoot, Move & Communicate"

I was the S4 of an MI CEWI Battalion of the 1st Inf Div. We had M578, (thanks for correcting the last number :) )
Sheridans destroyed my hearing, so I transferred to the Quartermaster. The weird thing was I worked in the G1 shop at both division (1 Cav) and Corps (VII)
I thought the M88 was tough to get used to driving due to having to push the pedal straight down.

Back to his questions. Some for help or clarification. You were in as I was getting out. Did the mortar platton at the Inf mech Bn, keep their 81mm mortars? During the 1977-79 Division Restructering tests, we recommended that they go all 4.2" mortars due to the Soviets remaining all buttoned up in APCs. The Infantry reps protested heavily.

By the way the test had one Brigade with three tank platoons, one with three tanks and one with the traditional five. The recommendation was that the four tank platoon was the most effective. leaving the two section (overwatch and bounding) and less expensive than a five tank platoon in maint. and money (tank cost). The three tank platoon was too weak and often had 35% of the tracks down for maint. In a three tank Bn, I was assigned to the 3/10 as a HHC XO and mortar leader, the most effective company was the Anti-tank TOW company.

Yeah, being an S4 was "exciting" …

And I just got hearing aids from the VA.

The 88 certainly was a monster. I think they have a version with the M1 chassis now.

M578, the guys used to call them Cheery Pickers. And as time goes on I have to think about stuff like designations too.

When I was in the ROK, '84-'85 we converted from H to J Series TO&E. The Mech Co lost their 81s. The tracks were given to the new 4th Inf Co, Delta.

The Mech Bn went from 3 to 4 Mech Cos.

CSC was gone and the Bn got an AT Co. Echo. With 3 or 4 Plts of M901s.

The Mech Cos also got an organic 2 vehicle AT Section of 901s.

The Scts and 4.2 mortars Plts were part of HHC.

recommended that they go all 4.2" mortars due to the Soviets remaining all buttoned up in APCs. The Infantry reps protested heavily.

You mean replace the Co 81s with 4.2s ? That might have been a good addition ? With the M901 Section and 4.2s to support the Infantry Plts. You'd have a nice little powerful unit.

The recommendation was that the four tank platoon was the most effective.

Yes we went to 4 M113s per Mech Plt too. Probably for the same reasons you mentioned for the Tanks. Yes I could see why 3 MBTs in a Plt would be too weak. Especially as you said, with the maint.

When I was a Rifle PL in the 101. Before I was with 3 Mech Bns. We were generally short the 81 PL. So I would fill in when need be. But the Mortar crews and NCOs knew what they were doing. With or without me.

the most effective company was the Anti-tank TOW company.

Yes, that is a lot of TOWs, and a lot of firepower.

Was stationed in Germany 83 to 85, 87 to 89. I was a Cavalry Scout obviously so if you want any info on regular armor battalion recce units hit me up. Non Cav unit Scout plt's consisted of 3 m113,s with Dragon mounts and 3 m901 itv's we operated in either 3 sections (1×m113, 1xm901 ea) or two sections. 1st sec.2x m113 1xm901 2nd sec 1x m113, 2x m901 we rarely used the two sections.
M113' crewed by driver, TC, 2 to 4 dismounts. M901 crew driver, TC/Gunner, 2 loaders/dismounts. The number of discounts often changed depending on plt strength. Reforger 85 we only had enough troops for a TC and driver for each vehicle and a loader for each 901. Way under strength.

Yes the Mech Bn's Scouts in the Bns I was in had the same organization[eventually]:

3 M113s

3 M901s

In some cases my Rifle Plt in the 101 along with the Company was short bodies too. With the Co. being an entire Plt short in '80-'81.

With the Mech Bns I served in '84-'90 and later the Mech Co I commanded. We were short too. But not as bad as in the 101 earlier.

Interestingly, when I first got to the ROK in '84. The Bn Scts only had 7 M151s … That was probably unique to the 2 US Mech Bns in the ROK. But later with the J series conversion. We got 3 M113s & 3 M901s.

We had a BDE Co. threaten to take away our tracks and give us jeeps. He said we were to aggressive. Lol

LOL !! Too aggressive is not really a bad thing generally !

A couple of corrections from above. The M47 Dragon ATGM could be fired from the TC hatch of the M113 without dismounting the .50cal MG, and in Europe this is where the ready round and the tracker would be while the vehicle was loaded and sometimes while halted in the defense. The TC hatch mount had liquid hydraulic dampening to prevent over correcting. The vehicle mount could also be mounted on a MG tripod. The Dragon had a nasty tendency to startle gunners when the rocket motor fired and blew off the back cover, which often resulted in losing control of the missile. The vehicle mount was on a moveable lock in arm.

By 1985 all M60's would have been A3 models. The last A2's with the 152mm gun and odd shaped turret went out of service in 1981/82. Some Tankers out there would have to contribute on whether the M60A3s were TTS or just standard M60A3s. The biggest peculiarity of the M60 was it was slow with a capital S. The M60A3 TTS was up to par in gun, ammo, fire control as the M1. The TTS gave it the Thermal imaging capability.

As far as ammo in Europe, infantry units in M113s had a basic load. When we alerted, ammo was brought either to the GDP or the AA. We had to be off our Kaserne within 1 hour, which wasn't enough time for the S4 and the Support Platoon to get ammo to the track park.

I agree with Legion the S4 section including Mess, Medical and the Support Platoon worked harder than us grunts in the line companies.

A couple of corrections from above. The M47 Dragon ATGM could be fired from the TC hatch of the M113 without dismounting the .50cal MG,

Yeah I forgot about that … Thanks for the reminder … More & more I find I'm adding IIRC in posts !

Yes, being a Bn then Bde AS4, as well as a Bn then Bde BMO, those was very busy "jobs". For all the cooks, mechanics, supply clerks, truck drivers, etc. It was said, "You really can't do anything Without Beans & Bullets !"

And IIRC it was who said " An army moves on its stomach." Yep, have to "shoot, move and communicate" … and cater to the "iron monsters". Or you're back in the 19th Century !

I remember getting my chewed because the Bde Cdr said the bacon was not crisp enough. And the Bn XO get mad because the scrambled eggs didn't have shredded cheese mixed in. Not "sexy" or "glamorous". But support duties have to been and done well if you have to go into a conflict, etc. And that I do remember correctly !

The M60A3s that were initially fielded without TTS were upgraded rather quickly. I don't have my notes on me, but am fairly certain all USAREUR M60A3s were TTS by 1985. Now CONUS and REFORGER units… no idea

MadMax17 has it right. By '84, all the USAEUR M60A3s were TTS equipped. As for CONUS… Well, my Guard unit got our M60A3TTSs in '87-'88 (IIRC; you and me Legion, its been 30 years and the memory ain't so good!). I do recall some Guard units still driving around with M48A5s as late as '89 (but I don't think they were NATO tasked). Plus, there were some Guard units tasked as round out units for frontline USAEUR Bdes (they had frontline equipment, through and through).

I have planned to give the commander and driver the ability to use their sidearms from the hatches, but which?

Not likely. The TC is way too busy conning the tank and the driver (and I drove M60s) is way too busy driving the tank. Plus, trying to "john wayne" with your sidearm from the driver position is highly ill advised (if not flat impossible).

Would the driver and gunner be issued M3A1 Grease Guns? I assume the tank commander was?

The only time I saw the vehicle weapon (the M3A1) was in the armory. Wrapped in cosmoline. We NEVER fired the thing, much less haul it around with us. We had our sidearms and whatever else we were issued (official or not) for local security.

The players will be able to abandon the tanks and keep fighting on foot when the commander orders them to.

Rudy has it right. Its all E&E (assuming you have any crew left alive. And that's highly debatable). Tankers are 19 Echoes, Infantry are 11 Bravos. And the grunts are far better at their job than any tanker will ever be.

By the way M113 drivers and TC's carried M16's. Side Arm was only carried by the Platoon Leader and the M60 gunners. The M60 is crew served. The M1911 pistol was the gunner's personal weapon.

Legion: Ahhhh, breakfast out of mermite cans, yummy. That brings back some memories.

Yes, the Track Driver and TC would usually pack an M16. But again since we cross-trained as many as we could as drivers and everyone with all weapons. Even though the Track had a primary Driver. But we were "flexible". Whoever the driver or TC may have ended up being. When we dismounted. They'd trade out temporarily their weapon if it was not an M16 with one of the dismounts. We wanted as much firepower on the ground as we could get. And the Track had the M2 for firepower, of course.

Yes, the M60 Gunner had an M1911 then a Beretta 92SB when those were issued. Plus yes, one of the other troops in the Fire Tms was the A-gunner carrying the ammo. But some times when/if short troops, others in the Tm would pack the ammo too.

As I said, we cross trained everyone on the unit to use all weapons, etc. But I don't think that was unique. All came from Basic/AIT having used most if not all the weapons in an Infantry unit. And we'd rotate the primary gunners about every quarter during the year. Especially the M60 and M47.

Yep, mermites before the T-rats. For some reason the eggs at breakfast, always had a green tint ! When I was getting out T-rats were just being phased in. And we went from the left over Vietnam era C-Rats to MREs in about '84.

We had to use up all the old C-Rats. So sometimes in the 101 when going to the Weapons' Ranges. Instead of C-Rats for lunch. The Mess would make "sack lunches" and the troops would march off with their weapons slung on the one shoulder. And a brown bagged lunch in the other hand.

And the grunts are far better at their job than any tanker will ever be.

Yes, but generally we liked having some FMC MBTs around. Not only for the firepower. But like in the 101, we could hop ride on the rear deck sometimes …

Yes, but generally we liked having some FMC MBTs around. Not only for the firepower. But like in the 101, we could hop ride on the rear deck sometimes

Always ready to oblige. We were Uber before there was Uber!

LOL ! You got that right !

I liked the T-rats. Very tasty, many times better than a field A-rat. We continued to get A's in the field even after the T-rats we introduced. So the training schedule normally would indicate type of ration for lunch.

By the way I preferred the C's to MREs. Especially the Chicken, Boned. Best meal in the C-rats in my opinion. Liked both the Ham and Pork slices as well, but the chicken was the best. Not to mention the Ham and Chicken were both B1 units so you got better candy in the cracker can.

I did too … the few times we got T's. They were pretty good, all things considered.

There were some C's I liked as well. The Beans & Weenies were just like back "home" … kind'a. And the pound cake and the chocolate cake thing plus the "John Wayne" bars were favorites !