"2mm Horse and Musket Armies Project Update" Topic

Hi all,

In between studying for finals I'm continuing to push my new 2mm Horse and Musket line through the production pipe. They are coming along much better than I expected. A few initial problems have been corrected as I've learned more about CAD and 3d printing, and now things are falling into place.

These are generic Napoleonic troop formations at exact 1:1 groud-scale, so that every single figure is represented. The initial lineup of figures are three-rank units of infantry and two-rank units of cavalry, which will cover most Napoleonic troop-types. After these are done I'll be doing two ranked and four ranked infantry and three ranked cavalry, which will allow people to play at 1:1 troops AND ground scale in every war in the Horse and Musket period, from the LoA through the FPW. I'll be trying to do pikes for the early WSS/LoA/GNW as well.

I just received my third iteration of troops in the mail and my cavalry regiments, which were the units I was most anxious to see; if those failed to print, then the entire project would be a failure. However, they came out really nicely I think:

I was pretty happy to see that my 2mm horses' tails came out. All 480 of them!

Each base has 56 cavalry on a 40mm frontage (110 scale feet), which is correct for 1:1 ground scale. I was worried as I started that I wouldn't able to capture the cavalry in 1:1 like I did the infantry, but it ended up working out. I'll probably make another version with slightly staggered horses, but these are pretty darn good for the first try. These also have a much thicker base than the infantry, which drives the cost up (although still quite cheap compared to metal). I already have a version with thin bases made up, but I have yet to send it to the printer. I was waiting for the version above to come back so I could see if the cavalry themselves were printable. Since they are, I'll move on from there. I'll probably make both the thin and thick version available (as long as the thin version works, which I suspect it will).

Here are my new 40mm infantry strips, both with and without flags. 150 figures each.

Here's a close-up of what will become some French infantry.

The plastic takes latex washes well, so I'm using that technique for now. They look much brighter than the spray-primed figures you can see in the upper right hand corner. This technique is much easier than spray priming them, so hopefully I can get it to work. After these dry I'll add white, paint the bases and then add the bayonets.

Speaking of bayonets. Of the 10,000+ figures set up in these pictures there are only four broken/missing bayonets,and those are located on only two bases. Hardly noticeable. Almost perfect printing at fractions of a millimeter.

Next in the pipeline is artillery and limbers. I'm also working on caissons. I'm trying to do artillery in 1:1 ratios as well, but it is a bit trickier getting all of the arty train guys represented. I'm not sure if I should put some figures standing around the caissons or what. I was worried these would be really pricey to do but they are actually very cheap. 50 guns with limbers and two or three caissons per gun should come in at about $30. USD I'm designing them all into discreet sprues, so if you don't want all the caissons you don't have to buy them. 48 guns with 48 limbers will only run $15. USD It won't break the bank. But, if you're crazy and really want to see a proper battery deployment where every 12-pounder has three caissons, that option will be there for you.

After those, I only need to do a skirmish screen and my 2mm Napoleonic project will essentially be complete. As soon as I confirm that all the pieces work I'll be making it available, but I'm not sure about how I'll be distributing the line yet. I might do something very non-conventional…

I'll do some updates when I get these guys painted.

impressive, I shall keep an eye on this.

Arg, just missed the cut-of for editing.

Here are the first two complete units, with flags, painted up.

A full scale 1050 figure Austrian battalion in the back and a campaign strength 450 figure French battalion up front.

You can zoom in on this picture to see it closer.

Huge difference in size there! That's just one battalion. Austrian brigades in line were gigantic.

Here is a close-up:

I like the look of the infantry but the cavalry looks odd because they are all lined up perfectly. The infantry could do this but not the cavalry. Is there something you could do about this?
They look great by the way!

Khusrau- thanks! Much more is on the way! I'm doing a complete line that can used for the entire H&M period. A minimalist line, but it will be complete. You should be able to play the biggest battles in the period; Leipzig at 1:1 will cost about $800 USD…

JMcCarroll- My thoughts exactly on the cav. I have a version where the cavalry are slightly staggered so that the line is uneven; it does look much more natural and thus better overall. I'll be sending a test version of it to the printer this weekend, along with the caissons and the skirmished troops. When I get it back I'll post it up.

EDIT: ~450 painted French cuirassiers, a full regiment at 1:1. These are in two ranks, although you have to zoom in to seem them clearly. Not the best picture, but the daylight is fading here. Also, I feel like the cav look a lot better in person. The glitter from the metallic paint isn't coming through.

Most impressive.

Pfft! What will impress me is if you paint the _eyes_ for each and every one. Until then, I merely be moderately fascinated.

:)

40mm should work well for my portable wargame set up.

They already are! The thing is, they're so small that the camera can't see them : )

Here's a German church I'm working on.
How do we know it's German?
The double-pitched roof!

(Actually not sure about that, someone on here said it once. But, it is based on a real 18th Century German church, so…)

Liking this a great deal
when can i buy some ?

Anyone remember the famous hair roller armies article from a few decades ago?

link

Are these going to be available to buy? I want some!

They'll be available in a few weeks. Sooner than later. I need to make sure that I can get skirmishers and the artillery to work first. For that matter, I also need to do some command bases, and maybe do a few tweaks here and there, like staggering the cavalry. I'm also making a series of buildings that can be used, that are scaled to the figures and 1:1 ground scale. They are pretty cheap (100 single story buildings for $17.00 USD) so you can do a proper village with 100+buildings without breaking the bank. Also, I'm designing the buildings with recesses to facilitate ink washing them. The wash will, I hope, stick in the windows, making the process of painting them up easier.

I'm still debating how I want distribute them.

Here's another one of the houses I'm working on. I'd like to get a dozen or so different options so that the villages and towns look natural.

I re-did the church a bit too. That steeple was a bit blunt.

This is SO cool! I agree, I'd line up to buy some, though I appreciate your commitment to making sure all types of figures will work. But please let us know when you're ready!

I will, it will probably be sometime in June; I have finals until then and then a two week vacation in Tokyo. I may be going to Historicon to do a painting clinic for Pico Armor although I don't know it it will work with my schedule this year. If I do though, I'll be bringing my 2mm stuff along as well.

Here are some action shots to give an idea of what a game would look like. It's a bit rough terrain-wise, but this will be fixed when I get some buildings up and have some more time. Most of the bases are 40mm wide. I've completely fallen out of love with 20mm bases in 3mm. Other than to make up change, to complete a square or to represent really small units, they are just too fiddly. They will, however, let me show the obscure Austrian battalion mass, which I thought couldn't be done. Since these are at 1:1 ground scale it's easy enough.

Here are two French brigades of about 2500 men attacking a 5000 man Austrian brigade. Austrian units are gigantic!

The French battalions cover 100m of frontage, for those keeping track. Not quite an even fight….

Then, the heavy cavalry show up!

The lead element of the heavy cavalry, anyway…

Here's what it would look like to approach a fully deployed enemy battle line:

The table is about 5 feet long and two feet wide, to give an idea of how much space 1:1 game play requires. This will restrict games somewhat because of depth issues. A large table might be needed to do a full division-on-division battle, and a very large table needed to do two full corps. An entire gigantic battle done in this manner might require more than one table.

After looking them over a bit, I figured I'd try repainting the cavalry. They came out much nicer the second time around. A black ink wash with some dish detergent and some brighter colors:

Cuirassiers on the left, carabiniers on the right.

I think I prefer leaving the sprue intact and having the space between the platoons in the squadrons.

This is 900 figures. I have 3000+more on the way to complete the 1st Division of the heavy cavalry reserve at Wagram.

Please ship to the UK !!!

Great work! I am looking forward to playing games 1:1, really excited about this project :)

SCW2003- What I'm trying to do is circumvent international shipping by letting people print them off at a printer in their own country. I'm just trying to figure out how to go about doing so. I'm thinking about bundling the figs together as a file and selling that under a lisence that would allow you to print as many as you want for personal use only. This would save people major money, and allow them to use whatever 3d printing tech is best for them.

Still looking into that tho…

I get excited at the prospect of any buildings in 3mm, so I'm watching your architectural projects with great interest. Some 2mm work beautifully with my existing stuff, others less so. Please do indicate dimensions at some point.

I might add that mt troop units are actually in 6mm, but I find buildings in the same scale absurdly large for Grand-Tac games whereas 3mm works perfectly. It's the Bruce Weigle approach. Your experiments in 3mm have also made me an avid reader of your blog, and I find that much of what you have been aiming for – and even the resulting effect – chimes with my own thinking and evolving conclusions. Very valuable indeed, and please keep the blog pages rolling.

lartenue-
Glad you like the blog! Once finals are done I'll be putting up some new posts, especially about my 2mm stuff, my upcoming figure line, etc.

I'll be scaling the buildings up to 3mm- that's really easy to do. I may even lead with those in a Shapeways store- they're easier to get into production. They're all on-order at the moment, so in a week or so I'll have some painted examples. But I agree with the 6mm figs/3mm houses thing. It can definitely work.

The church in the above picture, in 2mm scale, is 3cm x 1.5cm x 2.5cm. In 2mm scale that works out to about 75' x 35' x 65'. Decent sized church.

I am working on a terrain set that will recreate Wagram, Aderklaa, Aspern and Essling at 1:1, and will include a little map with it to show how to properly set-up the villages. The buildings are actually very simple in that region- they were almost exclusively single-story Hungarian style dwellings. I'd bundle these together in a set so people can buy the entire thing at once.

I have a bunch more iterations on the way to my place now, and will post here as I work on them. Artillery, limbers, caissons, skirmishers and a whole lot more are on the way

Bruce Weigel is the direct inspiration for my stuff. HIs set-ups are some of the best anyone has done. All I've done is stolen his terrain ideas and made them more portable and somewhat cheaper to effectuate. But his stuff is better than mine.

We are in clearly in violent agreement. In a perfect life I might have space to create and store custom-made terrains to BW's standard. But instead, like you, I shall do my best to replicate the same effect using fabric draped over contours and with settlements, woods etc pinned in place. And in this scale, the terrain becomes the principal visual event.

I am further encouraged that you aim to produce buildings in 3mm, and I'll await further news. Brilliant work.

Okay, must admit this is all new to me {3D Printing}
Sure further down the road someone could let me know the best way to proceed.
Keep up the good work, thanks

I would buy the files from you if you would sell them as downloads for ourchase. Good plan.

These are amazing – great job.

I do not see the red trim of the french grenadier company or yellow/green for the volt co.
You made that distinction with the cavalry.
Do you plan to take that technique and additional detail to the infantry?

Brilliant!

This will work well with Carnage and Glory II computer modulated rules system!

MG

Looks fantastic! I too would be interested in buying the files from you as a download. I think that's the way to go.

Thanks, glad you guys like them!

marshalGreg- I've begun experimenting with doing exactly that (company distinctives). I'm also washing the bayonets, then dry-brushing them silver, which really improves the over-all look of the infantry.

I'll get some new pictures up later on tonight.

It's very heartening to see interest in the licensing model, and I'm leaning towards it, although still kicking around ideas on optimization. My roommate is a pretty good programmer and all-round tech dude, so he's going to help me get a website up and running. I still have a bunch of models in the pipeline at the moment; I need to make sure they all work before I put them out there. I'm thinking of a launch date sometime over the summer if everything goes according to plan. Model-wise, I really just need to make sure the artillery works out. I am pretty confident that the skirmishes will work now, even though I haven't seen them yet. They're on the way; if they don't, I have a good plan to make the second iteration work better.

For those new to 3d printing, I'll include a lot of instructions and recommendations for how to go about it.

Marshal_Greg:

Here are some pics of French battalions with company distinctives. Each stand is 40mm wide, each company is 20mm wide. These battalions are made up of 3 x 40mm bases.

First, just the flank companies with their company color. You should be able to zoom in on these pictures to see the details.

The second picture shows the battalions with every company painted with their pom-pom color. Notice that in the rear battalion I purposefully left some of the bayonets metal, to create a mixture of color and glittery-metallic. I'm not sure if thus comes off in the pictures, but it looks pretty good on my desk. It gives them a rather attrative wavering look. Kind of difficult to see in a picture since you can't move your head around them.

if you zoom in you'll notice the flags- those are sculpted into the model so you don't have to mess with them. They're very tough, and shouldn't break off easily. Also, they're small enough where it's not a chore to paint them (I normally hate painting flags, even in 3mm, but here its a great short-cut).

Looks amazing! Fantastic work!

This is absolutely astonishing.

It really does put things into perspective.

Any chance of getting some squares printed?

Thanks! You mean like one large unit in a square? I could. You could also make squares with the individual pieces. There are big Austrian squares in the one picture above.

I came up with a way to use these figures at 3:1 instead of 1:1. I was complaining about the 20mm pieces being too fiddly earlier, and then I had a moment of inspiration and came up with a really cool use for them. You use three or four 20mm pieces to form squares and columns, but when the battalion forms into line you replace those with a single 40mm piece in line. The ground scale is keyed to the 40mm battalions, which is 100m. The "extra" space of the 20mm pieces can be abstracted into the table space (5mm really doesn't make much of a difference). This means that on a 6' wide table you get 4500m of space, plenty enough depth to play the biggest battles in the period without being cramped for deployment- almost three miles of depth. This would be expensive with metal figs, but the cost of these things is so low per piece that it's definitely not prohibitive.

Here's a shot of the basic idea. These units are 1/3 the foot print of the fully 1:1 units that I posted above, but use the exact same pieces. I don't have any 20mm strips with flags yet, so the units in column are missing them. Also, not all the bases are painted up. But this is the basic idea of 1/3 scale. This is Tharreu's division of Oudinot's Corps at Wagram:

And here are some close-ups of finished 40mm strips:

My apologies for the bad terrain, I'm sort of rushing. I'm doing this between studying for finals.

Anyway, 3:1 would be a really good way to do entire battles on a reasonable-sized table. The force above is basically a Black Powder army sans cav and artillery, and it would play well on a 6' x4 or smaller. For really huge 1:1 mega-battles you would need the space available at a convention.

Also, I'm working with my roommate to get a website up and running… I'll keep you guys posted on that. I'll probably also starting a new blog about my 2mm line, which will be separate from 1809in3mm. Keep the two scales separate!

I've got some real goodies in the pipeline now. Shako cavalry, bear skin cavalry, and uhlans.

These look great and am interested in following you progress on this and their availabilty. I like the 3:1 option you came up with too – allowing for 20mm and 40mm baess to create column, line and squre more easily too.

the cuirassier and carabineer looked particularly impressive. well done.

Looking for the website (soon?) and more details, pricing and closer more detailed pics too.

Well done!
Tim

Looks very good but, having painted up some Irregular 2 mm once a while back, I'd greatly prefer to see something in the 4 mm range – twice the size of 2 mm but still well below 6 mm. And specifically for the Seven Years War – the penultimate historical gaming period with the mix of nations, colors, and troop types. And battles span the globe from North America to Europe and on to India – and probably beyond (Caribbean at least).

And I'm glad to see you mention 3:1 since I suspect the 1:1 market is infinitely small (and no pun or whatever intended there).

So, any chance you'll be moving in to 4 mm? I realize there is a need for proportionately more detail. And if not you, do you know of anyone playing about in 4 mm in the era?

Thanks!

Tim95th,
Glad you like them! The project is coming along really quickly now. I'm getting better and more efficient at CAD as I go along. I re-worked the artillery a bit already. I've got the price of 60 guns down to under $7. USD They're on 30mm pieces, but designed so that you can keep them together as long bars the way the carabiniers above are done. Or, you can cut them up like the cuirassiers are. It's up to you. Pretty cheap- you could buy all 500 French guns at Borodino for a little over $80 USD or so.

I'll have some pictures up of the arty up soon; they should be here this weekend. My 3000 additional heavy cavalry are on the way too, so there will be some additional pictures coming soon, probably next week.

I'm devoting as much time as I can to this in light of finals; rest assured they're on the fast track. As soon as I make sure that the artillery and skirmishers "work" I'll start finalizing a first release, with plenty more to follow… I would say right now that early June is my target for the first release- just after Memorial Day weekend. It would be sooner but I'm taking a trip to Tokyo, so I have to leave the things at home…

EarlyMorningWriter- I'm not sure about 4mm. 3d printing is kind of funny, after a certain size it no longer makes sense economically. 4mm figures would be best done with traditional spin casting, I think. If you doubled the size of my figs you would double the price, and it wouldn't make sense to go the same route. Maybe in a few years if the technology gets cheaper…

The 3:1 scale stuff is more accessible, but the 1:1 scale stuff is truly epic, I think. As I was saying, for under $1,000 USD you could put together the armies at Leipzig at 1:1. Even as a simple static display, that would be one of the coolest things ever. You could do Guildford Courthouse for $50 USD or something, if not less. 3:1 would let a small group very quickly put on the biggest battles in the period. Another thing about 3:1 is that it makes artillery a lot cheaper, because you only need limber models to complete the footprint for the batteries. I tweaked my 20mm files a bit and created some with flags, which are now in pipeline as well. Which means hat hopefully in a week or so I'll be able to put together a very large 3:1 demo and get some pictures of it up on here.

Also, I agree on the SYW being a great one. I'm trying to cover the entire Horse and Musket period, so that's in the crosshairs as well. The three ranked cavalry is going to blow peoples minds when they see it.

I've done Irregular 2mm and I'm really admiring your passion about this project.

siggian-
Thanks!
Cool looking army there, too. Man, if my skirmish line comes out half as good as those I'll be very pleased indeed.

The ACW will be easy to do from where I'm at now. I just need to create some two ranked units, add an extra flag for the Union, and tweak one or two things here and there, and it'll be done: a 1:1 ACW figure line.

I need the two-ranked figs for the Napoleonic Brits anyway…

I'm hoping to have the first release in as little as two weeks, if everything continues to go smoothly (as it has been so far…). I'll have a website up with lots of pictures and some basic articles on how to get started as well. First or second week of June, if everything continues to go smoothly…

Very impressive. Here's what I'd like to see. Say your average French infantry battalion in line is 40mm wide. Now have battalions bases on that measurement. So you would make an attack column in 20mm wide. A march column in 6mm wide x 50mm long. A square in 15mm x 15mm. Next have a set based on a shorter line or a longer line for Austrians. You would have cav and art. based on similar measurement. You would swap out the base for the proper formation. (FYI, all my measurement are just an example, you would need to figure out proper size.) I tried this years ago with irregular minis but just didn't look right.
Whatever you do, keep up the great work,
Dale

DaleWill-
I'm going to have,at least, 30mm and 60mm pieces as well, which can be used to make out different units. I could make some 15mm pieces, but I would personally just use my 20mm pieces to form columns and squares. I'll make some one-piece square though, because a few people have been asking for them. I'm going to use your idea for a "march column" piece. All I really need to do for that is create a piece with the flag at the end. A great idea, really, thanks!

I'm in the final phase of optimizing the pieces for sale. I had to do some redesigns to make these print with acceptable consistency; it took a bit of doing. I also wanted to make them more robust, which meant I had to make some adjustments to the bases and figures. I think the new versions, although slightly more expensive, will overall be better products. I have final versions of artillery, limbers, caissons and infantry on the way to me now.

Price wise, it's looking pretty good : )
I'm pretty confident in the final versions but I want to see them in person and get some painted samples up before I put them online for sale. I also need to get my webpage done. I'm aiming at early June for the first release, which will have everything you'd need to start the Napoleonic era, plus buildings.

The second round of model arrived from the printer. I'm using Shapeways, and will probably be making the models available through a shop on there. They offer the cheapest way to get these models out the door, which also avoids me having to mess around with stocking them, shipping them,etc.

Here's how a few of the new codes came out, after a quick, basic paint job:

1:1 artillery train! The initial artillery model didn't print quite right, but I expected it to be messed up almost as soon as I sent in the print order, and sent off a few improved iterations. I'm pretty confident that these will work out.

Shape ways is very… let's say particular…. about what models they will and won't accept for sale in their online shop. I've had to redesign the figures several times in order to clear their software and manual checks. I finally came up with an set of 10 basic Napoleonic codes that will let you play almost any battle. The first prints of those are in the mail right now. One may or may not arrive in the mail today. If it does, and it looks look, I'll get some pictures up later today, and make the shop visible to the public. If it doesn't get up, then it'll have to wait until I get back from vacation in two weeks.

Wow! They look great painted up en mass!

Couldyou do a 1/1 scale battle in 2mm?

I like Shapeways. They do a good job. I bought my 1/6000 modern Singapore navy from. Cant wait to see what you have for codes.
Dale

Smoky_Roan- whole goal of this figure line is to make 1:1 battles possible and cheap. Its getting there.

DaleWill- agreed. They've been pretty easy to work with, although I was getting frustrated over a few demands they were making. I got the price of a 40mm infantry strip down to $.48 USD. So, a battalion in three ranks for $1.50 USD. More than my original plan, but, much tougher than the original, thin-base version was. The biggest fight was the bayonets. The lancers are going to be either really exciting or really disappointing. I had to build a roof into the sprue to protect the lances while in transit. Added about a buck to the total cost, but might be worth it. Not sure if they'll let me sell that model in my store- if not I have a few other ideas up my sleave. The first eleven codes will be:

40mm infantry strips in 3 ranks with and without flags.
20mm infantry in 3 ranks with and without flags
Cavalry in helmet/ Crest
Cavalry in shako
Artillery
Caissons
Limbers
Brigade generals
Division generals
Skirmishers

I have my shop set up already on the down-low. I want to get some cool painted pics up before I do the release, plus put together a professional looking webpage w/ Shapeways shop embedded in it. My buddy is a programmer and has cooked up a pretty good looking page for me. Just need the pictures…

This first batch is taking awhile because I'm figuring out the best way to do everything. I'm getting better and better at CAD as I go along, and more efficient at creating new iterations. Two rank infantry will be next (very soon, needed for those Brits!), then four rank infantry. That should be enough for most infantry in the H&M period. After that, I'll do cavalry in tricornes, bicornes, supply wagons, double-teamed limbers, infantry with two flags, and a lot more buildings, bridges, etc., etc. . Alternate formation pieces are also in the works: a piece with the flag at the end to show the unit marching, and complete squares. Goal is to have the basic figures to re-create all the armies in the H&M period; since these figures are necessarily a bit abstract, that means that the same infantry will be used for both British infantry and 1866 Austrians and Prussians.

I may also do a version of the infantry based on the inch, since some people might prefer that.

A few more updates.
My buildings came out pretty well. For some reason my two-story buildings are arriving after my one-story buildings, even though they were ordered on the same day. But then again, many 18th century German villages were one story tall, so….

Two French heavy calvary brigades of three regiments each.

A close up of the cav…

The village…

Village with a cuirassier regiment for scale:

Very nice. I saw the figures at your store. Didn't order any yet but I think I will once you give the go ahead. Village look nice.

Dale

Ahh, you found the top secret lab!
The product names will be changing after I finalize. : )

It could be today if the mail gets here early. I'm leaving town for two weeks later today, so it all worked out a bit dramatically. Glad you liked the village. All the buildings above, plus another ten or twenty not shown, cost ~$20. They are very easy to paint up, and take a fraction of the time compared to my balsa wood houses, so to md the cost is worth it. About $10 USD for 48 single story houses. The church is about $3.50 USD.

The prices on the store are the best I could do without physically threatening Shapeways…

Also, regarding the village, it is about half the size and has 3/4 the buildings that Aspern did.

I have a granery in the works. . .

F'ing bad ass

AronBC- thanks!
Are you in the South Bay Gaming Club?
I'm in Oakland. I'm technically on the mailing list for the group but I'm pretty quiet on there. I was planning on bringing these down and setting up a game one Saturday after I get back from vacation, to get some in-person feedback on how these are going. Probably Blackpowder (maybe with some modifications…)

Sweet! Yes I'm part of the SBGC club and I would love to have a chance to see let alone play a game with these figures. Would be happy to travel to o'town if easier. My e-mail for coordination is aronbc at gmail. Looking forward to hearing from you.

Well, the Post Office failed to come through, so the figs are going to languish on some shelf until I get back in two weeks. That said, if you guys want to check out the range, you can go to my shop and see what will be in the first release. Be warned that I haven't seen any of these final pieces in person yet (except for the heavy cavalry) , although Shapeways is telling me they all printed up fine and are available or sale. I'd hold off buying any until I get back, because I might have to tweak them still (although nothing too major I hope). The buildings, obviously, are ready to go without any changes, and of course can be used for all sorts of other purposes, so if you want to snag some of those go ahead. Complex House 1 still needs the sprue treatment, which will have to wait until my return. I'm hoping to put out dozens of building codes over the summer so that you can create varied looking BUAs.

link