"Would you go to Salute if there were no games?" Topic

Yes, I know that's a total departure and very unlikely to happen but its a genuine question about the direction of the show addressed to the Warlords and everyone else who attends the show.

Including this year, I've attended every Salute since the first one at Kensington Town Hall (except one) and put on a game at every Excel Salute bar two.

The changes noted elsewhere on blogs and TMP of increased SF and Fantasy, the shift to small games and a drop in visual quality chime with me, as does the increasing expectation of "Participation"games.

Our ACW "Demonstration" was an encounter action and so had a gradual build up of figures on the table. As a result it had quite a few enquires regarding when it was "going to start" from those wanting to join in! An unintended consequence of our choice.

We don't do "Participation". We feel our games are too large and need to be kept going through the day at a certain pace. Also, to be perfectly frank although we have never had to hit someone with the proverbial baseball bat, we have had stuff stolen (at Newbury not Salute) in the past and like to keep an eye open.

Also we are dubious of the "Participation" value in terms of rules promotion and explanation, feeling the concept works with small games that can be repeated during the day, or in US conventions where the event is held over a number of days and has a residential element.

We have always engaged with public and again this year had some great conversations around the period and the rules we use. "Knowledge Transfer" seems effective and has been well received.

At the end of it all, as usual I read comments about game standards "free admission" etc and again, as usual, I think of the 10 hours on my feet, the organisation for even our simple (but effective – as judged but comments) layout and a £20.00 GBP parking fee the same as everyone else.

Then I reflect on the fact that, as in most years I saw nothing of the show, apart from when on trips to the toilet and I wonder what I'm actually getting out of it!

Hence my question.

Given that the show is now really about spending money and even that puzzles me given E-commerce, or checking out new stuff face to face, why have the games at all?

Or maybe turn the whole thing over to small skirmish games and save everyone else the time and trouble?

For the avoidance of doubt, that's not sour grapes, its a genuine suggestion. Make the event the trade show its become!

Below is a link for the games at this years Historicon in the USA.

Three and a half days of games from 09:00 to 23:00 each day with all with restricted duration, clear expectation of numbers that will participate, lower age limit and if the rules need to be known in advance.

This is "Participation" gaming. Please don't tell me its a different time/place/culture etc. That's my point! Not an expectation that Salute could be run the same way but rather to show how focused this particular event is by comparison.

The Warlords and the public need to sort out what they want at Salute. At the moment the games are in danger of fading away as both groups are just drifting and I for one get the feeling that neither is particularly happy with the result.

PDF link

I would probably answer that by saying perhaps you need to revise the way you lay on games? If you had people asking if your game had started yet, then surely you are not making an effective game of any sort for a convention.
Participation games are popular because they bring people in, let them experience and try games/systems/periods – that's why they are there – its a convention – lots of people, not all wargamers.

A large battle, run for the interest of the people playing and not looking even likes anything is happening is not something any convention organisers would be wanting.

Simple: no

John T

Having been to both, obviously more to brits games show more pften, the difference between US big shows and brits esp salute, is 2-3 days for US, one for the other.
I never really had time to play any game in UK except once with Rich Clarke of lardie fame. As it was an absolute must in the plan.
In Us can do shopping, strolling about AND play., enough time.

Technically it is pretty hard at Salute. Also the xxxxx closure at 1700 is too early.
It was said by another that too many games are scifi fantasy etc. , which for my type is a no go, and lityle time to enjoy the rest, so for me and most of my pals, it would not make a difference as we go there for the supermarket syndrome.

Like JT it's a simple NO from me.

I spent about 3 or 4 hours playing in different games, I spent about 30 minutes shopping, the rest of the time was eyeing demo games for inspiration.

I can't be the only gamer that has a pile of unused stuff which, realistically, will take me through to death (and far beyond!), so the buying bit is less important to me than it once was.

its a convention – lots of people, not all wargamers

I take your point about trying new rules, and I do that definitely, BUT no-one just wanders into the Excel Conference Centre, walks past Salute and thinks "that looks interesting, I'll pay £20.00 GBP and go in and see what it is all about……".

I found out too late this year that Dave Brown was opening his Naps game using his new rules to Joe Public – If I had known I would have attended, just to get a good play of these rules.

Demo games – yep, I wonder why you bother as well. If you opened it up US style, maybe some interested parties would want to play for 3 or 4 hours. And I doubt they would steal stuff after playing and chatting with you for that long.

But when I see demo games I look to see if there is anything of interest – normally terrain wise, then I stroll on.

Yes as I acknowledge the "Participation" questions were a direct result of the early stages of the game and its appearance for the first hour.

My point was that "Participation" in terms of the long history of UK conventions, is still fairly new and expectation ill defined. As a result it's easy to assume any game from 20 to 2000 miniatures on the table could be such, particularly if you didn't read the show guide.

Marc,

Re theft – no we are not that paranoid to think those participating would steal from us.

However, 5-6000 people go through that hall every year and giving full attention to those you have committed to teach the rules is a lot harder if you need to keep even an reasonable level of observation.

For what it's worth we lost a whole unit of 28mm Cataphracts at Newbury and after all these years still have on idea how it was done!

When I've been to Salute it has been mainly to shop with traders that I don't see at northern shows. I will look at games if they interest me, but they are not the draw. I can appreciate the effort that goes into putting on the games, and to accuse them of doing it just to get free entry to a show demonstrates a total lack of understanding of the cost of making and transporting a game of any size. I think that games will always be a part of the show circuit, but given the cost of figures, making terrain and transporting large games I am not surprised that people are turning to more compact skirmish types. Having been involved in creating and putting on several large games in the past (20 foot long tables were a common requirement) I can say with some authority that you don't do it to avoid paying to get into a show – entry fees would be considerably cheaper and a lot less hassle. The indisputable fact is that people put on games because they want to and are interested in the period/game. If that is not to everyone's taste, then that is too bad, but if you bemoan the lack of historical games try putting one on, it will be an eye opener I promise.

Agree with Mr JT. No. It's the mix that makes Salute so attractive. To be honest, I can get most of the stuff I want from t'internet (admittedly I do still pick up new stuff that I like the look of at Salute). But the games are increasingly the interest. Particularly with the variety on show!

The Colonel

Vigilant – thanks for that comment.

Marc:

Demo games – yep, I wonder why you bother as well.

Forgot to respond to that, even if it was rhetorical.

We have always set out to show something new. Be it rules that have not long been released, or playing rules in a scale other than most people use for them.

Alongside that our tables have always been what the average group could achieve with a little more effort than they would normally put in on a Club game.

By that I mean always attractive – by popular opinion (OK no one has said they are crap to our faces – who would bother?) and barraged by photos but certainly not up to the show winning levels of purpose built boards.

That's been our mini crusade, if you like.

It has meant we have never tried to do the "Battle of Wherever" as we won't put out terrain that's just a rough idea of what it might have looked like for real.

Within these constraints we have never put on the same game twice, or the same period in successive years.

Our blunder, if blunder it be, this year was to not only show "Pickett's Charge" rules but rather than just line troops up at some mythical event, show one of the actual uses of cavalry in the war buy having them come on first in a scouting role and build the game around that. Not just have them hiding in the corner of a large game all day.

The "Demo" games I have never understood, although admired, are those where groups have gone completely mad on a display where they components may never see the light of day again. Time and commitment to do that may well now be on the wain.

Salute at Excel has in some way been its own worst enemy. The commitment to as may games as can be put in is likely to introduce far more weaker ones. Its a hard slog to do the immaculate.

Who can forget that 54mm Arnhem Crossfire game of years gone by – will we ever see the like of that again?

I can't recall a Convention without any participation games at all – going back to the 1980s. There were far less back then but always a few.

In the 1990s-2000s there were more and more, usually run by clubs, often with their own "homebrew" rules.

Nowadays a lot (not all) of participation games are aimed at just selling the rules/game, which feels like the pendulum swinging too far in the other direction – you get a game but there's always a sales pitch too. I understand it, can accept it, but if the game isn't too good it's a bit annoying – but then on the other hand I might have bought it blind and found out too late it wasn't as much fun as it promised it was.

There are games at Salute ???

No

Missed most of your game Trajanus unfortunately as was busy with ours.
Agree with your comment:
"The "Demo" games I have never understood, although admired, are those where groups have gone completely mad on a display where they components may never see the light of day again. Time and commitment to do that may well now be on the wain."

Mine for at least the last 15 years have been part of an ongoing campaign. The constant assault on our free time and austerity may become a factor.
But in the end theres's no excuse for a sloppy game.

Marc:
If you opened it up US style, maybe some interested parties would want to play for 3 or 4 hours.

I've been thinking about this for a couple of years now but have yet to take the plunge, as for me a very short game is boring and can be problematical.

I always try to abide by the "Ten Minute Rule":- if someone returns to the table after ten minutes they can see that something noticeable has happened ,troops have moved, shot and fought.

no.

Yes

None at all? Even just to look at? No.

I used to attend Salute, helping to run participation games: first of Bill Leeson's Kriegsspiel; later with Megagame Makers.
I enjoyed that, much preferring to be busy than wandering round looking at demonstration wargames that may have been magificent examples of modelling and painting, but bore no relation to anything I had the space, money or ability to create. I found them far from inspiring; rather they depressed and discouraged me by suggesting such elaborate, unattainable games were the sine qua non of wargaming.

Short, easy to play participation games on the other hand, such as those put on by WD, or introductions to new rulesets I found encouraging and informative.

Work prevents me attending Salute these days, but I'm not too bothered. But I certainly wouldn't go if there was not a wide variety of participation games; the 'moving dioramas' I can do without.

I think the games have to be there for the theatre and the experience BUT i would impose a degree of quality control.

The games should set a minimum standard. if anything they should be raising the bar.

Personally I think games hosts should at the very least get their expenses paid – mileage, parking and food. I was surprised to hear that this is NOT the case.

As for participation I am in two minds. Personally I have never taken part in a game at a show – I think it would be too loud to concentrate.

However I do get involved in a group gaming weekend every year in my local boozer for three days called BLAM. (British Lead Adventure Meet) This is an excellent way of sharing ideas (over a pint) playing on some beautiful tables, meeting new folks and re-aquainting with folks from previous years.

Aside from my weekly Shed meets this is a definite highlight of my year

Interesting discussion. Salute is physically so big that there are probably enough of each game type to make people happy. If there are game types not to your personal taste then they can be ignored easily. Subjective issues like "quality control" would stunt the show by excluding those not on the "in list". I like to see enthusiasm as much as talent. This is in addition to being rude about the preferences of others.
If the local high school are keen to put on a game, then that would be great. No snobbery here. They can converse more effectively with other young people and would feel welcomed to the world of gaming.
Salute might be seen as an "open door" to the hobby rather than a display of games that we think are of "sufficient quality".
The warlords do a fine job, seemingly thankless. There are things i would like changed, but I respect that they are doing a lot of work, so thanks to them.
I would be happy to stay gaming/trading until 9pm on the Saturday.

Martin Goddard wrote:
Salute might be seen as an "open door" to the hobby rather than a display of games that we think are of "sufficient quality".

Amen to that!

Agree with opening til 9pm and maybe an off peak ticket price after 1pm??

Personally I think games hosts should at the very least get their expenses paid – mileage, parking and food. I was surprised to hear that this is NOT the case

The very first year Salute was at Excel parking for games organisers was free. I have no idea if that was a fit of generosity on behalf of the owners or the Warlords paid (I suspect the latter)

As it stands, at just one car per game, it would have cost £1,980.00 GBP to pay for the standard all day car park tickets.

Not going to happen, I fear!

I would be happy to stay gaming/trading until 9pm on the Saturday.

Well indeed you might be but I don't know what games you would be playing. Certainly nothing to do with me, that's for sure!

This year? Up at 06:00. On site by 08:15. Left site at 18:20

So, opening till 21:00 means leaving at 22:15? Home around Midnight. Excluding travelling that's a 13 hour day just for games runners. God Alone Knows what it would mean to the Warlords!

Please engage brain before operating keyboard!

Engaged brain. If the show was open to later, maybe there would be time to do more. Salute is big, so difficult to see everything AND play. I appreciate it is a long day, but making it longer might make it less frantic. Maybe clubs could organise shifts, so their demo is covered all day.

Interesting viewpoints though

One reason I didn't go, and have skill quite a few recently, is that it is too frantic to cover everything. So now I mail order and browse blogs.

But, for the chance to play a good game (subjective, but for me it is NOT a two foot square with lego figures) like Dave Brown's, then I would think that would be worth it. Your game sounded good, and perhaps would have been fun to play to try the rules – I appreciate your theft concerns but watching you play is too dull for words to me – I want to try the game/rules.

I don't mean watching "you" – I was using it as a generic term to watching other people play. But like why wargames don't work on tv – they are not great spectator sports – especially if terrain etc is just club standard

Engaged brain

Well at least you know where yours is. I have to find mine first! :o)

Your game sounded good, and perhaps would have been fun to play to try the rules – I appreciate your theft concerns but watching you play is too dull for words to me – I want to try the game/rules.

I don't mean watching "you" – I was using it as a generic term to watching other people play. But like why wargames don't work on tv – they are not great spectator sports – especially if terrain etc is just club standard

Listen, watching us play our game is to dull for words!

As I've tried to show we don't go for the game, we go for the interaction. The chance to exchange information – its not a one way street – we get views and opinion too.

I picked up some tips on possible books to read and as I indicated on the "Killing Floor" thread I started, others found out from us where the idea of Zouaves came from, why Civil War Cavalry shouldn't all have yellow strips on their pants and just what the hell "Seeing the Elephant" was all about!

If it was purely about a game we could have a weekender at our usual venue and save a whole mountain of time, trouble and expense.

I said to one guy towards the end of the show, I couldn't understand why people take photos of wargames, still can't, but that didn't alter the fact that our units are now two shades lighter from all the flash used on them!

What's it all about "inspiration"? Short term memory loss – need the photo's to remember they were there? You tell me.

At the end of the day I just don't think real experience of rules is likely to happen in the Salute environment hence my contrasting it with Historicon.

Turn up to a game you have booked in advance, play for a predetermined duration and get the hell out! Both sides know what to expect and hopefully it works.

Trying to do that on an ad hoc basis with the "Herd" from "Walking Dead" milling around (Nothing personal Salute people its the movement pattern not your undead status I'm referring to) is not the same.

As many have pointed out different people go for different things and talking about this is the reason I started the thread.

Having a longer day could undoubtedly change things but many games don't have enough people to work shifts and just what are the 'off shift' people doing? Having a nap under the table?

I also suspect the Excel management company would crank up the cost for security and pretty much any thing they could think of. They certainly are never short of ideas.

Gaming late into the night works at Historicon because when people have finished they have a drink in the bar and go straight to bed. Not an option in a Zeppelin Hanger in East London.

I think most people would still go to Salute if there were no games, because its probably the biggest grouping of wargames vendors in 1 space in Europe, if not anywhere.

I also think some of the games are crap and the people putting them on sometimes don't give a about the paying punters.

Saying all that, I think the Salute experience would be much poorer without the games, I always find a few that really spur my imagination, and a few interesting people to talk to, and I think it comes from having a wide variety of games for a wide variety of people. They is us, and its nice to see what others of us are doing.

But I do think people who put the games on have a responsibility to hit a certain level of terrain quality, activity happening on the board all the time, and engagement with the punters. As a minimum they should all have a board telling you what is going on.

I don't think its Warlords job to make them do this btw, apart from maybe a checklist of minimum requirements and maybe a note that clubs/people who don't hit the mark don't get invited back?

BTW I've been to Historicon & Cold Wars, there is a lot there to like in the way games are put on, with much more focus on engagement and participation, and they typically run various wargames competitions at these conventions.

But I'm not sure the shows are as big (Salute is 6000+ people I believe, and I can only guess at what the upfront cost of Excel hall hire is), so I suspect the logistics and organisation are probably less?

FWIW I understand that ExCeL are charging full-price parking every day for all events held at the venue this year – no exceptions. It's therefore certainly no reflection at all on Warlords that they were unable to secure free places for anyone – far bigger events than Salute! have failed to gain any concessions on this point.

Yeah, it's the proverbial 'captive audience' where Excel management is concerned, I think the O2 is the same.

Size and location make it a done deal.

Must come a point where it backfires, would you go to any event there if parking were £40.00 GBP – £50.00 GBP ?

I'd still go. To be honest I barely glance at most of the games and then only if they are really spectacular or have beautiful scenery.

I go to shop and look at products to see if I might buy them online later when I don't have to fight my way through a crowd to get to the front and try to attract the attention of the sales people who are usually too busy chatting to their friends to acknowledge you.

I also often take a couple of figures with me, of armies I am working on, to hold up against another manufacturer's range to see if they would work together. You can't do that on the internet.

I certainly don't want to play games with people I don't know!

Wow! Seriously?

Let's say the we keep in the realm of the decidedly possible.

Cheapest entrance fee goes to £20.00 GBP (on line price, say) and car parking to £30.00 GBP.

You, just on your own, take a hit for £50.00 GBP!

Of course I'm aware that some people attending this year will have paid this in total (and more) if coming by various combinations of public transport.

All I can say is they could not improve the show enough for me to spend more than this years combo of advance ticket and car parking. Well maybe, £40.00 GBP.

The whole point of it ceases to have any relevance after that.

Online price is £12.00 GBP I live outside London and have a train season ticket so I don't drive. Two tube Oyster fares that's £5.60 GBP.

I've never run games at Salute, but I've run plenty of games at European shows during the past 20 years.

Games at shows can serve many different purposes:
- Show the best the hobby has to offer in terms of modeling, size, visual qulity;
- Show the "average club game", mainly to show each other (we are all gamers!) what we do in our own little gaming bubbles;
- Demo a specific ruleset through a participation game (recently, such games are often run by rules publishers);
- Offer a true participation game that can range from 15 minutes to 4 hours. Rules can be house rules, a commercial set, whatever the club wants.
- Demo a specific approach to a period (choice of rules, visuals, …). Often, the game itself is not the goal, but rather the starting point for some talking, exchange of ideas … w.r.t. the period.
- a combination of any the above …

In my view, any of the above options are valid for what a game at a convention can or should be.

But, I think expectations have changed over the years. It used to be that visitors and the clubs running a game were all "gamers, present at the con". It just happened to be that some people were running a game, and others not. That provided a more collegial atmosphere. If you wanted to join a game, that was fine. if you wanted to chat, that was fine as well. Visitors realized the people running games were simply fellow gamers, and vice versa.

These days, visitors have higher expectations. Some expect to be "entertained". They see games as part of the offering for them to have a good time at the con, and expect quality. They have forgotten that the people who run a game are just fellow hobbyists who are willing to spend the time to set up a game, and spend a lot of their money to do so.

The result is a tension between what clubs that run a game at a con want to achieve, and what visitors expect. Sometimes that leads to frustration on both sides. And it is difficult to predict when that will be the case. I have designed games, aimed at participation, that failed to attract gamers, and vice versa. I've had games that used clever mechanics for the connoisseur, but that ended up being a kindergarten (hell!). On the other hand, I've run games that did exactly what I wanted them to do.

If visitors in the future will shift more towards the "entertain us!" attitude, I expect that more and more club games in all their quirky variety will disappear at cons, and that the company-run games to showcase newly published rules will become the majority.

Legatushedlius,

Right, well that makes good sense!

Phil,

Excellent post!

That expectation that games are part of the "entertainment" and the mental clash it induces amongst "hobbyists" putting on those games is exactly the tension we see every year on TMP now.

Someone says 'the games were poor' another says 'well mine wasn't' or 'you think you can do better, try it' and off we go again!

It's the sub text of 'I paid good money to see this rubbish' versus 'well none of it comes my way, mate!'

Why bother to put on a game at all if you are going to end up tarred with the same brush?

Phil,
I think you've summed up the situation very well.
Personally, I don't enjoy watching diorama standard games – that bear no relation to anything I'm ever likely to do – creep forward at a snail's pace, but I do like the chance to take part in a game, whether it be a publisher or hobbyists putting it on.
I'd far rather go to the Wargames Developments annual conference and play games with like-minded people, than go to Salute.

I have only been to Salute once, a few of years ago and from memory it cost me about £200.00 GBP including an overnight stay.

I went with a plan to have a quick look around the traders and play 3 – 4 games. In the end I only managed the one – excellent – game and could not get into any of the others. Although looking at new stuff is OK I was actually a bit overwhelmed by all that was on offer.

I may go again – if I did I would make a bigger effort to get into games and not be so bothered at looking at traders.

Being involved in running a regional show (Carronade) I have the greatest respect for the efforts of the organisers. Also our club (Falkirk) often puts on games at shows which involves a fair degree of personal commitment, so I understand the balance of enjoyment/frustration involved.

At the end of the day the motivation of the attendees varies considerably. I believe maintaining a good mix of trade, demo and participation games covers as many bases as possible and if would not be a good idea to change this.

The only thing missing is a bring and buy but the year I went (perhaps the last year it was run?) it was just too busy to bother with.

Phil I think you have summed up the state of conventions and convention games (uk) very well.
I also have felt your pain over the kindergarten situation which is why I am taking a sabatical from Sci Fi games.
If I restart I will have a sign up saying that the team is not CRB/DBS checked and there will be a charge of £25.00 GBP for unaccompanied children.
As half of my team is under 25 this entertainment attitude is maybe an age thing coming from the computer/ online gaming generation?

It has almost become the Olympic argument: amateurs v professionals, gentlemen v players….

I think for £15.00 GBP it is a small expectation to want a "show" to look at. Otherwise, what is one paying for? It is not for show discounts, and often p&p will be less than the entry fee (and on-line discounts may well be available). So surely it is a "show" and so it is fair to expect to see things worth seeing? otherwise, it is just an expensive chat room.

So surely it is a "show" and so it is fair to expect to see things worth seeing? otherwise, it is just an expensive chat room.

Reasonable point. I think there's still the matter of whom the expectation is on.

I think Phil's point is that expectation as not only grown its become an entitlement. The generic pounding games get on TMP every year is just a symptom of it.

I personally would love to be a fly on the wall at the Warlords Salute debrief to hear what sort of an airing game quality gets. Or do they actually let it go on the basis some suggest – if they set a line many would just drop out?

I'd also point out that as far as my group is concerned its been an expensive chat room as long as we can remember but as I've said before, that's why we put games on – to provide the chat!

I think for £15.00 GBP GBP it is a small expectation to want a "show" to look at.

Fair point.

But that's a value-for-money discussion, and has less to do with the quality of games at the show.

If you expect the quality of games to be higher, where do you think that quality is going to come from? By definition, the games at the big shows are the best the hobby has to offer. Or do you think clubs and gaming groups on purpose put on less attractive games than they can manage? No, of course not. The majority of clubs put forward their best effort. Sure, there might games that do not seem attractive to you, but that doesn't mean you can wave a magic wand and replace that particular game by a more attractive one next year. People are already giving their best.

My gaming group has run games at major shows for over 20 years. Some of these games did cost me huge amounts of time and financial effort (up to 1000 euro per person, multiply by 2 or 3, in some cases for items that were only used once – during that particular show). But although we did win 4 'best of show'/'best participation'/… over the years, there were as well years when the game was perceived as "average" or even "boring". Fair enough. But if someone would tell me "you should try harder next year, or you cannot show your game at the show", the answer would be simple: There will be no next year.