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"bad trader alert for the marketplace" Topic

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Action Log

15 Apr 2017 3:15 p.m. PST
by Editor in Chief Bill

  • Removed from TMP Talk board
  • Crossposted to Consumer Affairs board

6,889 hits since 15 Apr 2017
©1994-2018 Bill Armintrout
Comments or corrections?

Pages: 1 2 

napthyme Sponsoring Member of TMP15 Apr 2017 2:55 p.m. PST

So I purchased the following from shirleylyn in the marketplace here on TMP.

GROPOS rule books and game cards Asking $15 USD USD plus postage
TMP link

I inquired as to what the shipping would be because you can't send the cards as media mail, they do not qualify shirleylyn replied the following….

YIKES! its the cards that do you in…$11 shipping. I understand if you change your mind with that postage.

Shipping was fine and what I expected, however I did not expect her to defraud the post office after I paid for priority shipping. so almost a week later it comes postage due. So I e-mail here the following…

Yes the problem was you can't reuse priority boxes for anything not priority. They never even opened the box, the priority markings were enough to flag it for priority shipping no matter what was in it.
It was an additional $8.04 USD postage. I can send you a picture of the wrapping if you wish. napthyme

I wrapped it in brown paper because it was a jacked up box I made, and when I took it to the post office, I had multiple packages. The postal lady asked what it was and I said books. Which is what it was. No ill intent or anything. Just tell me the difference and I'll refund it. Shirley

I can't send a partial refund thru PayPal. I'll send you a money order Monday. Shirley

This is false because she had my e-mail address, all she had to do was click send money and do so. I am still not sure she has any idea of what she even did wrong. I still have yet to receive a refund for the additional shipping that she kept for herself. The promised MO never arrived and its been two weeks.

I sent you the money order. you don't need to send a invoice because i sent the money order. you paid $28 USD for the gropos stuff, which you received. I sent the money order for what you said you had to pay. I don't have any proof that you even had to do that. please stop asking for more money. you got a great price for something that is out of print. I'm going to find the receipt for the money order and give you the receipt number. its a lousy $8 USD, give me a break. shirley

I have yet to get any kind of a confirmation number on the MO and all coms have stopped between us. So if you insist on buying something from her I recommend using only media mail and just paying the extra at the PO. In any case I can't recommend this seller on the market place.

shirleylyn Inactive Member15 Apr 2017 4:23 p.m. PST

I will say right now, my postmaster said there as NO CHANCE that the package was opened.

This guy is trying to steal from me. He is taking advantage of a woman who is using the money to show kids how to paint.

I honestly can't say anything more. This man got exactly what he paid for. Nothing was damaged. Everything was sent that I advertised.

shirleylyn Inactive Member15 Apr 2017 4:27 p.m. PST

I will send him the $8. USD since his life depends on it. I hope I can make his life better with that $8. USD

Go buy a Big Mac meal. Have fun, buddy.

shirleylyn Inactive Member15 Apr 2017 4:40 p.m. PST

Deleted by Moderator I stopped responding to him via email because he was trying to steal from me.

haywire Supporting Member of TMP15 Apr 2017 4:43 p.m. PST

I am confused. What happened? Did she use a priority mail USPS Flat Rate box and ship it not Priority Mail by trying to cover it up with paper wrapping?

If that is true, sorry shirleylyn, USPS doesn't like that. They can tell just by looking at the box size. I tried it and couldn't even get it past the door to the post office.

I think the sizes of the boxes are proprietary and that's how they can figure it out.

shirleylyn Inactive Member15 Apr 2017 5:10 p.m. PST

I stopped email communication because he was harassing me. He also got cards that I did'nt list, making them a bonus to what he paid for.

He did'nt tell everyone about that, did he?

I sent him the $8. USD He stole from me. Thats the bottom line here.

He stole from me. He got what he paid for, and just like the trolls over on Barter Town, who always want something for nothing, he took advantage of someone selling things to pay for a painting class.

He got his $8 USD, and it makes me sick that this man attacked he and harassed me until my husband forced me to pay this Deleted by Moderator.

napthyme Sponsoring Member of TMP15 Apr 2017 5:44 p.m. PST

She chopped up a priority box, then covered it in brown paper and sent it media mail….

How could I have stolen from her when this is exactly what she wrote in the TMP ad.

We have the Master book, Minbari Federation, Narn Regime and Earth Alliance books, all in "like new" condition.

Also included are:

40 Earth Alliance Vehicle/unit data cards
40 Narn Regime vehicle/unit data cards
40 Minbari Federation vehicle/unit data cards

Asking $15 USD USD plus postage.

So what did I still from you? You posted them in the add as included.

My little podunck PO opened 100% of media mail.

shirleylyn Inactive Member15 Apr 2017 7:38 p.m. PST

Well, you have your $8. USD Say thank you to my husband, because I would not have given you the money, as my postmaster actully laughed and said there was no chance anyone would have opened that package.

You lied. You harassed me. You attacked me here. You now have your $8. USD

You win. You stole money from me, and I honestly hope you feel good about your self.

Know what? There were other people wanting to buy those rules. In fact, I got a PM from a member I paint for, saying I should ask for the items back, refund your money, and sell to him.

He said he would then come here and say I am a good trader.

How about we do that? I imagine you will say no, as you got what you wanted for almost nothing. You are a low person.

Mars Miniatures15 Apr 2017 8:09 p.m. PST

Reusing Priority flat rate boxes for anything other than priority mail can result in postage due for the recipient.

Which really sucks if you are the recipient.
Didnt happen to me, but to a friend of mine.

Moral of the story: please dont re-use flat rate boxes!

Personal logo Bobgnar Supporting Member of TMP15 Apr 2017 8:35 p.m. PST

I've had the same thing happened to me when someone used a priority mail box inside out but some of the original outside showed through. I got postage due. Also anybody can send money back through PayPal. I don't understand the statement about canno send partial payment through PayPal. Don't treat it as a partial payment just treated as a payment. I'd like to see sort of a spreadsheet of what was paid and what was obtained and how much extra was paid -- kind of hard to understand something like this in the narrative thread. As if it made any difference given all the problems in the world today :-)

shirleylyn Inactive Member15 Apr 2017 8:37 p.m. PST

Well, it WAS'NT a flatrate box. I used a piece of a flat rate box as extra reinforcement to the box I did use, then rapped the box in brown paper.

Also, the box certainly was'nt opened at his PO. Also, by now he got the Money Order I sent, and he has'nt said so, and my request for him to send it back to me.

Which makes him a thief TWICE OVER. I only sent him another $8 USD because my husband shamed me into sending him the money, thinking he will send back the MO.

This guy stole from me.

shirleylyn Inactive Member15 Apr 2017 8:44 p.m. PST

Again, he got something for nothing. $15 USD plus postage, so total of $28. USD And what is the total cost of those books and cards?

About $80. USD So, he paid me $28 USD, got $80 USD worth of game books and cards, and now, he has $16 USD more of my money.

So, he got $80 USD worth of items and paid $12. USD He refuses to send back the money order. He is a low person.

shirleylyn Inactive Member15 Apr 2017 9:52 p.m. PST

And no answer to my request to send the items back and my offer of a refund.

Why? Because he is a thief and got what he wanted. Something for nothing.

I'm almost sick over this.

David Manley15 Apr 2017 10:35 p.m. PST

so despite the box being wrapped in paper and the lady not asking for priority post the post office makes an assumption based on the apparent size of the box and charges the recipient? Sounds like your beef is with your rather nonsensical postal system.

tyroflyer215 Apr 2017 11:12 p.m. PST

Have to agree. In all probability there are two decent people here who have become victims of a less than perfect system (to put it mildly). I suggest putting it down to experience and try not to let it get the better of you.

napthyme Sponsoring Member of TMP15 Apr 2017 11:18 p.m. PST

I had not uploaded the image of the package because its such a PIA to log into my site just to do one silly picture. Here it is for any doubters. I have provided this for her twice before.


Two weeks after receiving the package I ahve yet to get any money order, so I have no idea where it was sent, but its not arrived here.

I never received any request to send anything back for a refund. I could have done that instead of paying the extra $8.04 USD for shipping.

I didn't set the price on this lot
I didn't make the decision to send this media mail.
I didn't make the decision to reuse a priority box.
I didn't make the decision to defraud the post office.
I didn't make the decision to send a refund via money order

yet I am the troll, thief, liar, bad guy in all of this????

and no I didn't attack you here. I said I could not recommend you as a seller, while your making accusations about me you can not backup.

If I ever see the MO in the mail I will certainly send it back, but after 14 days I doubt very much that I will.

I will more then happily post the phone number to my local PO here if you want to call them. you can ask for the post master as she knows me personally since I am there every week.

and yes thanks John for straightening up this situation. We have always had good trades in the past and hopefully will in the future.

shirleylyn Inactive Member15 Apr 2017 11:23 p.m. PST

Well, I know you must have gotten that MO. Keep it, if it makes you happy.

I am not a liar. You got what you wanted. Something for nothing.

napthyme Sponsoring Member of TMP15 Apr 2017 11:29 p.m. PST

when did you mail the MO cause it still had not arrived this morning when I got the mail.

You still have not looked at the picture of the package.

If you had mailed this priority as agreed you would have had a good trader endorsement and zero drama by now.

Mako11 Inactive Member15 Apr 2017 11:33 p.m. PST

Our local post office is doing a lot more inspecting of "media mail".

You should be able to send printed cards through it that way, I suspect though, as long as there's no advertising in with them (that's the rub).

They do severely frown on the re-use/misuse of their priority mail packaging.

alien BLOODY HELL surfer Inactive Member15 Apr 2017 11:42 p.m. PST

Was any of this necessary to air on TMP? Really?

martin goddard Sponsoring Member of TMP16 Apr 2017 12:02 a.m. PST

Bit too much of a rant i feel. A similar rant was directed at me in the past.

goragrad16 Apr 2017 12:05 a.m. PST

Not to comment on the other particulars, but my brother does a lot of ebay buying and selling and states that media mail is invariably opened and checked and that the cards would have triggered postage due.

alexjones Inactive Member16 Apr 2017 1:17 a.m. PST

sounds like a bad buyer alert to me.

99% of buyers are reasonable but there is the odd one that causes problems, when I was selling on ebay I would just block them.

The postal system is to blame here by the sounds of it and the buyer is making a big deal about £5.00 GBP – life is too short!!

nevinsrip Sponsoring Member of TMP16 Apr 2017 1:38 a.m. PST

"and just like the trolls over on Barter Town,"

Red Alert !!!
Warning! Warning! Warning!
Danger, Will Robinson!!

Doctor X16 Apr 2017 1:58 a.m. PST

Just put this through my rant translator…

From what I can make of this the items didn't qualify for media mail.

The seller quoted Priority mail rates to the buyer, and then attempted to ship the items at the lower cost media mail rate, pocketing the difference.

The package was a partially re-used priority box wrapped in brown paper. When the package was opened for inspection, the USPS saw a piece of reused priority mail, which you aren't supposed to use, and charged the customer the postage due of upgrading from media to priority rate. A rate that it sounds like the buyer had originally paid for.

This caused the package to be delivered postage due to the buyer which essentially then cost the him almost twice what he was told postage would be, rightfully upsetting him.

If all these facts are correct, then the seller is definitely at fault and owes the buyer the postage due amount.

While the fact that the money raised is being used to teach kids to paint is a very cool thing, it is totally irrelevant to the issue.

Incidentally, you can do partial refunds on PayPal. I do it all the time when people buy multiple items from me on eBay and then don't wait for a combined shipping invoice and over pay me. I go back and clock on the "partial refund" link in the PayPal transaction.

Bottom line, if all my statements are correct, the seller made a mistake which really didn't cost her any more than the proper shipping costs the customer had originally paid for. She just needs to get that money back to the customer and apologize.

napthyme Sponsoring Member of TMP16 Apr 2017 2:50 a.m. PST

spot on Doctor X Spot on

Cambria562216 Apr 2017 3:01 a.m. PST

As a neutral observer, my interpretation is pretty much the same as Dr X. The seller accuses the buyer of being a thief (repeatedly!), for which there is no evidence, but there is plenty of evidence presented by both parties of her own fraudulent behaviour. On top of that, she keeps libelling her buyer. It may only be $8 USD, but sometimes principles matter.

shaun from s and s models Supporting Member of TMP16 Apr 2017 3:51 a.m. PST

sorry lost me after the first few lines?
what is going on could someone explain in plain english please.

shirleylyn Inactive Member16 Apr 2017 4:53 a.m. PST

Well, I stand on what I said, I used a part of a box. I know some of you seem to like to pile on without reading what the lady is saying so I will say it again, I USED A P I E C E OF A BOX, to reinforce another box. It was'nt a cockadoodee flatrate box.

Now, my husband warned me about the boys club mentality here. I get that, members that have been my customers and those that have been very kind to me aside, I get the vibe that ladies arn't very much welcome here. Thats fine.

But I will tell you again, I sent this guy a MO. He refuses to say he got it. Now, maybe he did'nt get it like he says, but I ALWAYS put a return address on my envolopes. In fact, I use address stickers that have my address clearly printed on them. Strange…I never got the MO back.

Why is that? In 20 years of marrage, I have used those printed address stickers. Never had a letter go missing. And this guy has been harassing me, via email, and yeah, I could have sent him the money by pay pal, but I just did'nt want to do that, just because.Last night my husband shamed me into paying again via pay pal, with the hope he would send back the MO. He refuses to say he got the MO. I am a 40 something mother and small business owner. I have many customers here. I certainly would'nt crap were I eat. I live an honest life. If you lot think I would come here and fight over $8 USD, well, sorry for you.

So, I may be in the minority here, and most of you think I'm at fault here, but that tells me he pocketed the MO. So that makes him a thief.

Thanks boys. Great way to welcome me. I am honestly hurt that so many people would look at this and see that the fault is mine. I also can't believe you are over looking the fact that I sent this guy a MO, and it has not been returned to me.

Long winded, but I am sick that this guy stole from me, and everyone here is on his side.

TheKing30 Supporting Member of TMP16 Apr 2017 5:06 a.m. PST

Please don't think me rude, but what if he didn't get the money order? People have had things stolen out of their mailbox before. Would you appreciate him saying what you're saying?

I'm not saying your wrong to be upset – we're all entitled to our emotions. You being mad does nothing to Napthyme.

Free people from your anger and you'll find the only one you've freed is yourself.

Maybe some time away from the keyboard would help?

Happy Easter & Passover!

shirleylyn Inactive Member16 Apr 2017 5:45 a.m. PST

I don't appreciate you saying "get away from the keyboard" like I'm some chan nerd, flipping out over some online trolling.

I will stop, as this guy now has $80 USD+ worth of items for the princely sum of $12 USDusd. Deleted by Moderator

He is a thief, and no, It never crossed my mind that he didn't get the MO. I would have gotten it back.

Covering for thieves. Is that what goes on here? Or is it just because I'm a woman and that makes it ok?

You are covering for a thief, and it makes me sick.

haywire Supporting Member of TMP16 Apr 2017 6:36 a.m. PST

OK Looking at the package label giving me Zip Codes and Package Weight, they only calculated for USPS retail ground mail and not Priority.

Basically, USPS cancelled the MEDIA ($3.15) and charged the additional for USPS ground Mail ($11.14) hence $8. USD

It would have been $13.60 USD if this was a priority flat rate medium box and $11.65 USD if sent priority mail.

So I am guessing this has nothing to do with the Priority Mail packaging, just USPS saying the package cannot be "Media Mail" because of something in the box. (the cards?)


I am sorry Shirleylyn, you made a mistake and are in the wrong. Napthyme paid for items at an agreed upon price and ended up having to pay more for it because of you trying to cheapen the shipping and got caught.

And you calling him a thief for any of this is just ridiculous.

shirleylyn Inactive Member16 Apr 2017 7:02 a.m. PST

OK. If you think so.

But over looking the blind fact that he received a MO for the $8 USD And I'm the thief?


Covering for thieves. And it makes me sick.

Andrew Preziosi Supporting Member of TMP16 Apr 2017 7:30 a.m. PST

Shirleylyn…I posted in the new thread you just created.

You need to move on…for your own sake.

Joes Shop Supporting Member of TMP16 Apr 2017 7:52 a.m. PST


Doctor X is correct.

It doesn't matter what the intent was: USPS rules/regs were not followed and the buyer had to pay for it.

Learn and move forward.

Buckeye AKA Darryl16 Apr 2017 8:06 a.m. PST

As one side only presents facts, in a non-emotional way, facts the the other side won't address (agreement to ship priority, cards were included in the original ad), to me it is pretty obvious who is correct in this matter.

If the agreement was to have all the items listed sent priority mail, then that is that. The cards were not "free" they were part of the deal, yes? And sending the package media when you said it was going to ship priority lends to the lying being on one side.

I cannot speak to the money order. No idea if it was received or not. Regardless, you made a deal based on information you provided, and did not live up to that deal. The buyer was entitled to the difference in postage, and you could have completed a partial refund via PayPal (oh, that makes the third point you seem to skirt around the truth on).

You have damaged your rep here, because you are ranting and raving, not addressing the issues the other party has mentioned, and did not mail priority as promised.

This isn't old boys club or sticking up for a thief, it is you not doing as promised and other pointing out the obvious holes in your rants. Based on this, I would not buy from you either because I wouldn't trust you to stick to the deal, and then go off on me if I were rational and calm and factual and called you out in public.

Seemingly, I am thinking the folks on Bartertown might not be as crazy as you make them seem to be.

Phil Hall16 Apr 2017 8:36 a.m. PST

As a retired USPS employee I highly recommend that any time you send any form of money through the mail that you use either Certified or Registered mail with a return receipt requested. Registered Mail is signed for by each employee that handles it and you have a paper trail of it. Certified is cheaper and you have a receipt signed for by the recipient and if you used the Return Receipt you have proof of delivery.

TheKing30 Supporting Member of TMP16 Apr 2017 8:50 a.m. PST

I only sent him another $8 USD USD because my husband shamed me into sending him the money, thinking he will send back the MO.

Interesting. I'll leave it at that.

Winston Smith Supporting Member of TMP16 Apr 2017 9:39 a.m. PST


Doug MSC Sponsoring Member of TMP16 Apr 2017 10:50 a.m. PST


You seem to be accusing those that disagree with you as being an old boys Club. Actually I didn't know you were a woman and probably not many others did until you brought up the fact. It seems to me that you being a woman has nothing to do with this transaction and neither do the responses. You seem to have carried this to another level that no one else did in their responses. Women are as welcome here and accepted as anyone else but don't accuse us of not agreeing with you or taking sides because of your gender. I believe that the responses would be the same if you were a man.

GarrisonMiniatures Inactive Member16 Apr 2017 11:23 a.m. PST


If you agree a contract willingly and without coercion then it is not legally or morally right to unilaterally change that contract. You had a contract, you broke it by not following the agreed postal method and it cost the customer. In those circumstances it is quite natural for the customer to object and ask you to compensate for the costs incurred.

It is not right to start ranting and raving about it the way you have.

GarrisonMiniatures Inactive Member16 Apr 2017 11:34 a.m. PST

'This man got exactly what he paid for. '

Did he pay for Priority Mail?

Did you send it Priority Mail?

If the first answer is 'yes' and the second answer 'no' then, by your definition, ' Because he is a thief and got what he wanted.' relates to you, not him – your definition…

Also, 'as this guy now has $80.00 USD USD+ worth of items' – No, he got items worth what you both agreed as the price.

napthyme Sponsoring Member of TMP16 Apr 2017 12:02 p.m. PST

For Clarification it was not a flat rate box that was used it was a standard priority that was turned into a D&D boxed game style two part box. both top and bottom are priority boxes.

Lois at the post office only had to tear the brown wrapping slightly and see the white and red box marked priority to flag it for additional postage. It was never fully opened by USPS and did not need to be to incur the additional shipping charge.

Also for clarification she keeps saying I got $80 USD worth of books. I would disagree with that they were advertised as in good condition. I would not advertise them as such, they are in ok condition and only worth about $40 USD due to bends creases ext.

After waiting a week and not getting a MO I contacted her. after another week and no replies I posted here. If I had gotten said MO why would I have bothered to post here at all?????

If you have never had something go missing in the mail your not mailing out enough stuff.

I to don't take a dump where I live. That includes bad mouthing the guys on bartertown. Defrauding the post office, and acting like everyone here is against me as well.

I ship about 1200 packages a year via USPS and things go missing, get delayed, go on vacation and finally arrive where they should and get damaged and destroyed. Its all part of the lottery we sign up for when we entrust the delivery to someone else.

John Treadaway16 Apr 2017 12:20 p.m. PST

This is all such a shame over eight dollars. Why don't you both agree to both give eight dollars each to the other's specified favourite charity and then call it a day.

This isn't worth all of the outrage and no one comes out of it looking good.

John T

Cyrus the Great16 Apr 2017 12:22 p.m. PST

If Doctor X has interpreted things correctly, and napthyme said he did, it is a dispassionate matter to determine who is right here.

Brian Smaller16 Apr 2017 12:48 p.m. PST

I guess the big winner here is anyone who ever wanted to know either of the two protagonist's street addresses.

Winston Smith Supporting Member of TMP16 Apr 2017 1:02 p.m. PST

Pettiness has been raised to Olympian levels here.

Shedman16 Apr 2017 1:07 p.m. PST

Excuse my ignorance, I'm from the UK, but what right does the Post Office have to open your mail?

Personal logo piper909 Supporting Member of TMP Inactive Member16 Apr 2017 1:11 p.m. PST

Sidebar: I really dislike the confusion the USPS has created with its Priority (and Media) mail systems. For starters, there are two classes of Priority mail (and I think even one or two extra for international postings) and different boxes/labels for each, with different rates and size/weight restrictions, and I can NEVER keep track of these, even if they don't change year to year. Moreover, when dealing with local mail, there is no appreciable difference in delivery times using Priority versus standard rates -- this is well documented, so it's a consumer ripoff by the USPS when they foist Priority rates on local mail.

Media mail, well, there is little reason I can see why any special media rate mail should be at risk of being opened and inspected, possibly damaging the contents, possibly not resealing the package adequately and causing the package to be lost or damaged further in transit. I also think it is ridiculous to take the attitude that any sort of paper message inside a media rate package (even an invoice or receipt?) will nullify eligibility for media mail rates. That one page of paper doesn't make any difference at all to the weight of a box.

And I can't even figure out the differences between First Class and Parcel Post anymore…. the USPS has become too complicated and rules-bound for ease of customer use, no wonder it's bleeding money (I won't even begin to detail all the troubles I've had in recent years with misdelivered or lost mail). Local postal clerks often don't even know their own rules -- I've had more than one tell me that there is no delivery confirmation or tracking number anymore for media rate mail, but the receipt clearly shows a tracking number.

Winston Smith Supporting Member of TMP16 Apr 2017 2:21 p.m. PST

Shirelyn. Napthyme had to pay for shipping TWICE.
Once when you charged him for Priority and shipped it the cheaper Media.
Twice when he had to pay Postage Due when your clever plan fell apart.
So, let's drop red herrings like $80 USD worth of goods when your agreed selling price was far less. "The value of a thing is what it will bring."
The price you were willing to sell it for is what he was willing to pay. In neither case was it anywhere near $80. USD
Nor are poor children and art relevant.
As has been said many times above, you can just SEND money on PayPal.

Methinks you protest too much. Never lost anything in the mail?
Heck, I lost two full Ancient armies because the Post Office had it sitting in the wrong post office in Texas. *I* had to straighten out the post office by calling its Postmaster!
A return address sticker is again irrelevant. How does that guarantee delivery?

So, is Napthyme being petty? Yes. So are you.

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