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"Problem with basing, getting frustrated." Topic


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1,053 hits since 8 Apr 2017
©1994-2017 Bill Armintrout
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Figurspelaren08 Apr 2017 1:30 p.m. PST

Hello,

Some years ago I painted up a french division (8 btns) and based them for Lasalle by Sam Mustafa.

I have now started painting some British units to make two matching forses but due to how the army builder in Lasalle works it is almost impossible to make a british force for Waterloo.

I ahve now started to look for other rules to use and have discovered that the basing I used for my French mak them difficult to use with other rule sets.

So if anyone knows of a decent set of napoleonic rules where I can use my French based 6 castings on a 45x40mm base and 4 bases making one btn.

I have put a lot of work on the bases and at this moment i rather put them in a box and forget about them instead of even thinking about rebasing.

Regards Johan

MajorB08 Apr 2017 1:37 p.m. PST

Black Powder. Doesn't really care about basing.

14Bore08 Apr 2017 1:42 p.m. PST

Bases to ground scale seem quite arbitrary anyway,keep them close and go.

Figurspelaren08 Apr 2017 1:49 p.m. PST

I am looking at black powder but since i have four bases per btn i cant divide by three and it makes mixed order look stupid.

I was planning to get the army lists for waterloo and have a look but blacpowder seems to be for larger table sizes.

JimDuncanUK08 Apr 2017 2:45 p.m. PST

Johan

My general understanding of Mixed Order requires 3 battalions, one battalion in line (4 bases wide) flanked by a battalion each side in column (1 base wide 4 bases deep).

Your Mixed Order formation would then be 6 bases wide in total.

If you are short of space for larger games then you may want to consider rules such as those by Neil Thomas or Bob Cordery which can be more economic in use of space. Your basing format will be fine with them.


I can provide links if you are interested.

Personal logo ColCampbell Supporting Member of TMP08 Apr 2017 2:47 p.m. PST

As long as both sides are based the same, The Sound of the Guns by Sergeants3 can give you an entertaining game. sergeants3.com/19.html (top of third page)

We use it for almost all of our Napoleonic gaming. For an old battle report using them for Quatre Bras, see link

Jim

vicmagpa108 Apr 2017 2:49 p.m. PST

you have to look at game mechanics. Black powder works at any scale.
the base can be by battalion or regiment. The game emchanics works!

add the elader rules makes the game very interesting.

Personal logo sillypoint Supporting Member of TMP08 Apr 2017 3:48 p.m. PST

Generally, as long as the stand/element frontages are the same you can play Blackpowder.
I play my Prussian against a player who has his French based differently. The game plays fine.
The rules are simple enough for players to adapt. Our group feel the guns are too small (ground scale) so we model them differently.
When I run a game I remodel the command rolls a bit. I think we have tinkered with the morale rolls.
To each his own. 😜

evilgong Supporting Member of TMP08 Apr 2017 4:56 p.m. PST

If you're not playing some form of organised competition-style event why not just make up your own 'army-builder' to get the exact Brit force you want?

I use my 4-base units, that saw action in Lasalle, to play Napoleon at War. The rules actually use six smaller bases, but the frontage works out and the fix is trivial.

The combat mechanisms are mostly unit v unit so is pretty permissive for armies of different basing conventions.

The authors are working up a V2 of N@W.

Regards

David Brown

Gonsalvo08 Apr 2017 6:21 p.m. PST

Field of Battle is fairly basing independent, but suggested organization for infantry units is 4 bases per unit (same for Cavalry, 2 bases per unit for artillery, with base frontages roughly the same for all three arms).

Definitely my personal favorite Napoleonic (and other black powder era) rules:

link

There are plenty of other sets that would work for you as well – despair not! :-)

Peter

Figurspelaren08 Apr 2017 10:34 p.m. PST

Thanks for all your suggestions!

@JimDuncanUK: I know what mixed order is but black powder uses that term for units in column or line with their skirmishers sent out.

@Sillypoint: The problem is that there is no good way to make a four stand btn with its skirmishers out and it frustrates me more than it should…

@Evilgong: The geniuos with Lasalle was that you could take two matched forces and play, if you take away the army builder there is very little left.

@Gonsalvo: I have command piquet in my book case. I will keep looking.

This is just playing with toy soldiers and of no importance at all but I have invested so much time and energy in this project!

Yellow Admiral08 Apr 2017 11:08 p.m. PST

The geniuos with Lasalle was that you could take two matched forces and play, if you take away the army builder there is very little left.
I disagree, and so does Sam Mustafa: the first sentence of the Army Builder rules says, "Lasalle may be played using historical scenarios of varying size."

I think the genius of Lasalle is that the mechanics are boiled down to a streamlined and elegant minimum to represent Napoleonic tactics with miniatures. I never even cared what the Lasalle Army Builder rules said, because I prefer historical scenarios, "what if" battles, or campaign-generated encounters.

I have to agree with David Brown (evilgong), you should consider just creating the armies you want to play with and use Lasalle to play with them. You've already got painted miniatures on a basing scheme that works, why not keep going with that?

- Ix

Figurspelaren08 Apr 2017 11:42 p.m. PST

@Yellow Admiral: One of the problems with Lasalle is that it very often boils down to compact formations of attack columns headbutting each other.

steamingdave4709 Apr 2017 1:46 a.m. PST

I am playing "Over the Hills" Napoleonic games with my units originally based for Field of Glory Napoleonics, so most units are 4 bases of 40mm x 30mm with 8 infantry to a base and 3 or 4 cavalry. The Basic rules do not really need skirmisher figures (taken into account in troop classification), but there is an optional rule and I have made a few skirmisher bases so I can use the rule. I have also used the same figures for Black Powder, but I think OTH does a better job of representing Napoleonic battles with toy soldiers.

Figurspelaren09 Apr 2017 2:34 a.m. PST

Never heard of "over the hills" but what i see seems interesting. I read that the standard unit needs six bases and that the number of bases is tied to a fatigue number, do you need to fudge the rules to play with 4 bases?

How much book keeping is there? Do units get a lot of fatigue points or can i use my casualty markers to track fatigue?

Thanks for your input!

Personal logo Pictors Studio Sponsoring Member of TMP09 Apr 2017 5:17 a.m. PST

"The problem is that there is no good way to make a four stand btn with its skirmishers out and it frustrates me more than it should"

There are a few ways to do this. Either just use one of the stands as the skirmishers. Or just make more stands of only skirmishers. I do both for different periods. It works fine in Black Powder. I think BP is the set you are looking for.

steamingdave4709 Apr 2017 9:13 a.m. PST

@figurspelaren
No fudge necessary. You define your " standard" unit- for my 15 mm armies it is the 4 base, 32 figure infantry or 4 base 12 cavalry unit. The " standard" unit represents 600 infantry or 300 cavalry and gets whatever the appropriate FS is for that army in that period e.g 8 fir my Russiand. If you want smaller units, just reduce the FS accordingly (some of mine are 6x4 infantry figure bases, they count as 400 men, so lose 2 FS points.) Some people are playing with " big bases", esoecially in the smaller scales. It does make it a bit more difficult to represent formations, but markers can be used.
The authors run a Facebook page and have just set up a forum (standtogames.boards.net) with a section on Over the Hills.

I do quite like Black Powder, it's a " fun game", especially if you throw low dice and your units charge all over the place whilst your opponent rolles "blunder", but it is a rather generic " Horse and Musket" set and you have to do a bit of work to get a proper Napoleonic flavour. For me Over the Hills has the edge, as the authors have geared it very specifically to Napoleonic tactics.

Guthroth09 Apr 2017 9:56 a.m. PST

Over the Hills is looking like the next big thing for us as well. We are playing with 4 bases of 6 infantry per unit and 4 bases of cavalry.

The game really doesn't care about basing as long as both sides are the same.

Figurspelaren09 Apr 2017 11:16 a.m. PST

@steamingdave47

I just looked for reviews of "over the hill"

For example: link and they look really tempting, thanks for the tip I will most certanly get a copy!

Personal logo wrgmr1 Supporting Member of TMP09 Apr 2017 7:46 p.m. PST

Have a look at Shako 2. We use 3 stands per battalion, 4 should be no problem. Skirmishers are 3 to 4 figures on a base as wide as a battalion in line but half the depth.

Corto Maltese10 Apr 2017 5:17 a.m. PST

We play Black Powder with exactly the basing you describe. For 'mixed formation' (not 'mixed order') we don't remove any bases from the line, but simply put two additional two-figure bases out front to represent the deployed skirmishers. When these return to the line the additional bases are simply taken off table. You will find photographs of large Black Powder Napoleonic games played like this on my friend's blog: link Scroll down to 1813 Napoleonic All Day Game Parts One and Two for pictures. Some of Simon's battalions have only three of the bases you describe but we adjust the stats accordingly. I think this is just a one point reduction in stamina; otherwise these are treated as standard sized infantry battalions.

grahambeyrout11 Apr 2017 10:29 a.m. PST

The standard French Napoleonic battalion seems to be 6 companies of nominally equal size. One elite = grenadier, one light, and 4 centre companies. My problem is that when rules specify a set number of bases per unit say 4, it often bears no relationship to company structure. In the case of the French, 4 bases represent 1.5 companies, if British 2.5. I realise it probably does not matter for most people, but personally I like some recognition of company/squadron structure – its part of the essence of Napoleonic armies

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