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"Next target for terrorism..." Topic


26 Posts

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Action Log

07 Apr 2017 2:08 p.m. PST
by Editor in Chief Bill

  • Removed from TMP Talk board
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1,287 hits since 7 Apr 2017
©1994-2017 Bill Armintrout
Comments or corrections?

Likui00607 Apr 2017 8:57 a.m. PST

My hometown Stockholm just got hit by terrorism.. several dead and injured when truck hit pedestrians on their way home :(

Whirlwind07 Apr 2017 9:58 a.m. PST

Oh no! That's terrible.

Forgive my ignorance, but why is Sweden being targetted by terrorists?

basileus6607 Apr 2017 9:59 a.m. PST

I am so sorry, mate… It's a shame. :(

basileus6607 Apr 2017 9:59 a.m. PST

Target of opportunity. Nothing else, Whirlwind.

Urbancohort Inactive Member07 Apr 2017 10:20 a.m. PST

They hate everyone. They are not religiously motivated and I won't use the name they give themselves and are an insult to my Muslim friends. They love death, they praise death, they bring only death, they respect death, and they seek death. They are a death cult more akin to Nazism. That is why they do it to people anywhere, even innocent Sweden.

My sympathies. Having known a victim of the London nutter I weep with you.

TGerritsen Supporting Member of TMP07 Apr 2017 10:41 a.m. PST

Thoughts and prayers with you.

foxweasel Supporting Member of TMP07 Apr 2017 11:27 a.m. PST

My sympathy for Sweden. Whirlwind, Sweden has a massive immigrant population.

Likui00607 Apr 2017 11:46 a.m. PST

As foxweasel said..
But one of the first bystander that started to give aid to the victims was a muslim man. So we need to remember that terrorism is not about any religion. Just a poor excuse for maniacs..

Personal logo herkybird Supporting Member of TMP07 Apr 2017 12:30 p.m. PST

Sweden is not a valid target for terrorists, Swedes are a nice and gentle people. They like singing!

The terrorist has done something truly terrible, just like we had in London. My sympathy goes wholeheartedly to all those affected.

Vigilant07 Apr 2017 12:37 p.m. PST

These people want to create a backlash because it validates their twisted views. So they cause outrages in areas with large numbers of immigrants in the hope that a knee jerk response will isolate those immigrants and give "truth" to their claims. Best way to defeat them is not to blame any particular religion, but to point out as much as possible that they are the enemies of that religion, not the west.

Tango0107 Apr 2017 12:54 p.m. PST

Hope you and your family are going well…!


Amicalement
Armand

raylev307 Apr 2017 1:35 p.m. PST

I feel for Sweden…it's almost become normal all over the world.

Bangorstu08 Apr 2017 1:32 a.m. PST

Sympathy and thoughts for you all.

Just goes to show there's no rhyme or reason to this.

Personal logo Great War Ace Supporting Member of TMP08 Apr 2017 5:54 a.m. PST

Okay, this is already "religious". Just because TMP's Editor has dictated "no politics, no religion" on the "real" boards, doesn't eviscerate the religious aspects of our current "world war". It is a relatively small world war, so far, compared to the full-sized mobilization, battles and "total war" of the two previous world wars. And this one has zero connections to that "thirty years war of the twentieth century". This world war is a thing apart. Yet many players in those two world wars are involved in this world war, and are even ingredients in the causes of it.

There is a "rhyme and reason to this". Things that people do are never without "rhyme and reason". You just have to find out why "those people" exist in the first place, and why they are doing this. That is where "history" comes in. Without "histories" (theirs and ours) inculcated by societies, there is no casus belli for demagogues to preach; no justification for their acts of aggression and violence; no reasons why anyone should be upset by, or support, the war that the terrorists launch.

History, or rather, "histories", are the first line, the core attack and defense.

Theirs is all about Europe and the "West", the "great Satan". It has been for generations. This is nothing new. It is getting to be very, very, very old. And the same religion is used each time.

I agree, it isn't "about religion". It is about manipulation. Societies and cultures manipulate themselves, their rising generations, to believe in a version of history. Their version. And of course, it does not dovetail with the history understood by the other side; our side. We share more in common than we disagree on. That is because our universities and lower education institutions have been listening to each other and preaching the same version of "history" for as long as the traditional enemy as been preaching an alternate, "other" version. Religion has played a central role in all of the earlier wars: both to launch the "holy war" and to respond to it.

The origins of either religion are similar, though separated by centuries: they arise out of what we conveniently call today "Judeo-Christianity". And Judaism is very, very, very, very old. It grew out of paganism, which is older still, going back to prehistory (before anyone was writing/recording anything).

What we are dealing with here is the same old same old human darkness. Let's do try and not get over ourselves. This really is all about us as a species. We've come a long way over the millennia that we have kept track of ourselves, that we have kept any kind of "history" about ourselves. And, universally the sin of "history" is manipulation of it. Truth is the first casualty when self-interest rises up to dominate all other considerations or factors that go into the mix of "history".

History doesn't just become slanted toward self-interest, it serves self-interest above all else.

Right now, the world war is all about overthrowing the existing old order of the imperial colonialists. The benighted insurgents and terrorists appeal to any and all elements within the "imperialist" regimes to join them. First and foremost are the asserted "coreligionists". But any who are adrift enough to "convert" to the terrorists' brands of "Islam" are welcomed with open arms.

So we've seen thousands (from billions) flow unto it. ISIS is not the only player seeking to dominate and bring down the imperialist order. Deleted by Moderator

This will not stop. But it must be understood. And understanding is the first essential to combating any danger. Without understanding there can be no focus on victory.

If we do not obtain victory very soon over this plethora of terrorist groups, they will continue to portray themselves as a "bloc" of belief and motivation. They really only have one thing in common: mutual hatred for being marginalized by a complex of politico-economic factors, put in place by "the West". The countries where these people originate are benighted economically, marginalized by the soullessness of capitalism and imperialism that thrusts itself into those countries to exploit their resources for gain.

The danger isn't specifically any one group. So yes, this isn't "about religion" at all. But don't lose perspective here. If we, their targeted enemies, do not recognize their casus belli as an asserted one that is religious, we will not appreciate the intended target of their preaching: Muslims everywhere. That religion is their most natural recruitment pool.

And because there are very large Muslim enclaves in many European cities already, some of them well in excess of ten percent of the population, and because they have largely not integrated, but rather form entire communities (enclaves) where their religious ideas control their daily lives, and most importantly, because they are economically marginalized (moving to live in relatively prosperous Europe and the Americas has not substantially given them more quality of life), their education opportunities have not been realized, they do not rise in the world, they must serve masters of the "old imperialist order" still. And because they feel this way in their millions, they pose the very danger to the "West" that the terrorists want.

The only way to eradicate these attackers is to put down the terrorists as an overt danger. While terrorists can wage open war, they pose a recruiting force. Their very asserted casus belli is religious: and radical Islam depends on open warfare. It must exist politically. ISIS, Bokoharam, Mujahidin, "Muslim Brotherhood", et al. any of them must obtain and grow political power. The "caliphate" must be established and it must grow. Without that essential existence, radical, jihadist Islam cannot be appealed to as the reason for the war.

Much more insidious than religion is an ideology that can be formed out of whole cloth, something secular and "new". So we should be feeling fortunate that this danger possesses such a weak spot. It cannot justify itself by appealing to a religious mandate that does not exist.

So "the West" has a number of clear targets. We can band together, unite with the Muslim majorities in those countries where overt jihad is trying to mutate the Muslim populations into "holy warriors" through terrorizing their own into submission. But if there is no organization portraying itself as the "caliphate", and incapable of operating as openly "holy warriors", then there will be no inducement in Europe for Muslims to "unite" to such a movement.

That is why ISIS must die. All openly organized Islamists must die off. Forcing that extinction is the tricky part. Because "the West" has its own ingrained memes that play to the "history", that forms the "players" that the terrorists and their sympathizers rightly castigate for their "imperialism". We do not have "right" on our side. We have justification and outrage. But so do they, and it all goes back a very long ways into their "history", which overlaps with our "history". But those competing histories are at war with each other. The details are the devil. And all that the devil wants is mutual destruction…………………

The Archer08 Apr 2017 9:03 a.m. PST

Great War Ace….

Very well said and written. I could only wish that those who have a say in what transpires in the world…. could read this.

Tango0108 Apr 2017 10:41 a.m. PST

Quite well said Great War Ace!.


Amicalement
Armand

Rod I Robertson Supporting Member of TMP Inactive Member08 Apr 2017 10:58 a.m. PST

Great War Ace wrote:

Deleted by Moderator

and:

They really only have one thing in common: mutual hatred for being marginalized by a complex of politico-economic factors, put in place by "the West". The countries where these people originate are benighted economically, marginalized by the soullessness of capitalism and imperialism that thrusts itself into those countries to exploit their resources for gain.

and:

Because "the West" has its own ingrained memes that play to the "history", that forms the "players" that the terrorists and their sympathizers rightly castigate for their "imperialism". We do not have "right" on our side. We have justification and outrage.

Wow, I dare not ask what good you believe might come of defending a system that exploits both citizen and foreigner alike and works to abridge and marginalize the political will and impact of the demos. There is no democracy in what you describe above, only submission to a xenophobiic type of global ideological warfare to defend the property, privilege and self-serving ideology of an empowered 'rich minority' to exploit everyone else. This is not capitalism you describe, it is a militaristic, state-backed corporatism which seeks to slave the power of the state's military and the peoples' pocketbooks to crush any alternative model for social organization by foreigners in their own lands. This is the most predatory, vexatious and immoral secular 'crusade' of greed which you seem to be advocating. Why defend a corrupt and exclusionary 'democracy' which shunts aside the peoples' voices and is closely linked to selfish crony-capitalism and rapacious corporatism which exploits and commercializes us all? This is a monstrosity driven by rampant greed and King Leopold's Belgian Congo is but a stone's throw away for us all if your above described version of social organization wins out.

We don't have to act like terrorists and blow people up to stop it, but nor do we have to submit to it, yoke ourselves to its abuses and defend it either. Your expressed vision scares me as much as the poisonous ideologies of radical Islamists. The global Manifest Destiny of greed or universal submission to imposed Islam you're two sides of the same cursed coin, selling intolerance and radical fundamentalism enabled by an incomplete and deceitful use of history. One is secular, the other is religious, but both are absolute and uncompromising. Both seek to destroy all alternatives and neither will tolerate dissent or plurality. I reject this historical dualism which you propose and hope we can all see a third way. We must defeat the monsters of terrorism but we must also tear down the monsters at home which prey upon us all. Terrorism is but a tactic. What drives this conflict is greed and exploitation on all sides.

I feel like I just looked into the Eye of Sauron and saw it to be real. Wow, I despair for humanity if what you describe comes to fruition. Poor Sweden, but poorer humanity.

Rod Robertson.

28mm Fanatik08 Apr 2017 2:02 p.m. PST

These incidents don't really surprise anymore I'm afraid.

Just got back from my vacation in Paris. There are Famas assault rifle-armed national police or military presence virtually everywhere, mostly to be seen in large crowded areas such as tourist spots so people can feel "reassured." One day the metro stations were filled with police. I found out later it was because an attack in St. Petersburg took place.

Gwydion09 Apr 2017 2:59 a.m. PST

So it's Heart of Darkness.

Not news to most people.

What do we want to do about it?

Go native like Mr Kurtz? Or have a look at a new way of dealing with it?

If you want a war on terror well as GWA says, ISIS et al need that to thrive. You can bomb the people but you are simply fertilising the ground of oppression in people's minds with the bodies of the dead, unless you do something else as well.

Better answer well you tell me. But how about abandoning rapacious exploitation of three quarter's of the world's population and pushing them into looking for violent, simplistic, atavistic responses to their economic and cultural oppression?

Sounds a bit wimpy doesn't it?
Not nearly as attractive as bombing, shooting, eradicating or destroying a 'problem'.

The problem is the 'problem' is people, and I think we probably kill enough without looking for more opportunities. And killing them in huge numbers politicises, antagonises and energises their relatives, friends, cultural allies and co-religionists (ANY religion -it's just a group marker at this level).

Maybe there is a 'war' on one side. Maybe we should defuse that war by not playing. Treat it as the aberration it is and getting on with most members of that religion who don't, currently, want a 'war'.

Lion in the Stars09 Apr 2017 11:37 p.m. PST

I'm starting to think that we, the world, need to remind the extremist [expletives deleted] wastes of oxygen that we do in fact have the capability and the will to utterly END any city we choose, that our permitting them to live and spew their poison is out of our mercy, our desire to not kill innocents.

And the fact that I'm seriously considering ending a city and all the innocents inside it scares the everliving Bleeped text out of me.

Gunfreak Supporting Member of TMP09 Apr 2017 11:48 p.m. PST

And shows just have much you and IS is the same.

Bangorstu10 Apr 2017 10:58 a.m. PST

As it turned out, it was Egypt…

28mm Fanatik10 Apr 2017 2:19 p.m. PST

Egypt deposed its Arab Spring popularly elected but Muslim Brotherhood president Morsi in a military coup d'etat that's tacitly supported by the US and Western Europe. Goes to show that we support democracy only if the right candidate wins.

Lion in the Stars10 Apr 2017 10:18 p.m. PST

Gunfreak, the difference is that I'm not such a pathetic excuse for a human being that I actively target innocents unable to defend themselves in preference to soldiers or politicians (who either have the capability to defend themselves or have guards to defend them).

I do. NOT. want. to harm innocents.

If I have an issue with someone, I will tell it to your face, and with the actual cause of my issue, not the easy target that has nothing to do with the cause of my issue.

Please don't compare me to DAESH again. I'm not going to ask nicely a second time.

Gunfreak Supporting Member of TMP11 Apr 2017 2:17 a.m. PST

Sure you want to harm innocent. Or is that city you want to nuke some sort of fabled city with no civilians?

Personal logo ochoin Supporting Member of TMP11 Apr 2017 5:15 a.m. PST

sort of fabled city with no civilians?

I hope not. I'd be seriously upset if Lion "hit" Pompeii.

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