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"A controvertial history of the ACW page." Topic


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716 hits since 30 Mar 2017
©1994-2017 Bill Armintrout
Comments or corrections?

Tango01 Supporting Member of TMP31 Mar 2017 8:27 p.m. PST

Well… those are their point of view…

You can agree or desagree with them…

rulen.com/myths


Amicalement
Armand

daler240D Supporting Member of TMP01 Apr 2017 10:28 a.m. PST

You should not be giving hits to sites like that.

AussieAndy Supporting Member of TMP01 Apr 2017 1:08 p.m. PST

Agreed. I think that the editors should remove this thread.

Personal logo Ironwolf Supporting Member of TMP01 Apr 2017 10:08 p.m. PST

Having a degree in history, you'd be surprised to know that several of the items on the webpage are fact.

basileus6602 Apr 2017 2:49 a.m. PST

Those are not "point of views" but a collection of strawman arguments if I have seen one.

Dynaman878902 Apr 2017 3:42 a.m. PST

First myth on there is a flat out lie. Some of the rest are true in the sense that they are technically true but in truth there is much deception.

Pan Marek Supporting Member of TMP02 Apr 2017 5:51 a.m. PST

Oooh. "Several of the items (on an entire webpage) are true".
So? A broken clock is correct 2x a day.

The page is neo-Confederate nonsense at its worst.

Cleburne1863 Supporting Member of TMP02 Apr 2017 7:17 a.m. PST

Agreed. Worthless drivel. Take the flag issue, for instance. Saying the battle flag wasn't an official flag of the national government is technically true, but its a distinction without a different. The Confederate armies were parts of, or agents if you were, of the government. As such, the flags of the armies were, are, and can be just as symbolic of the Confederacy as any flag "officially" adopted by the Confederate congress.

Tango01 Supporting Member of TMP02 Apr 2017 2:58 p.m. PST

Thanks Ironwolf….

I always guess that we can argument here anything about ACW in a freedom way… with good manners… (smile)… specially history facts…


Amicalement
Armand

Personal logo Ironwolf Supporting Member of TMP02 Apr 2017 7:16 p.m. PST

Tango,
Very true, but history is full of those who don't like something so they want it removed or banned cause it don't fit with their beliefs. lol

Cleburne1863 Supporting Member of TMP03 Apr 2017 2:09 a.m. PST

Or desperately cling to something that's not true because it does fit their beliefs. It can go either way.

Tango01 Supporting Member of TMP03 Apr 2017 9:54 a.m. PST

Either one or the other… It is still a simple argument…


Amicalement
Armand

Personal logo Ironwolf Supporting Member of TMP03 Apr 2017 2:04 p.m. PST

Tango, yes a topic that should be debated, argued and remembered. Not banned or removed because its uncomfortable. Here are some comments to open up a discussion on this topic.

1. The ACW was fought over slavery?
Yes it was but that was not the primary reason. New States coming into the union were open markets for the wealthy Northern Industrialists. They wanted to sell their farming implements. The South wanted to keep using their slaves as cheap labor. They also wanted to use their slaves as cheap labor in the new States joining the union. Abraham Lincoln's campaign was financed by wealthy Northern Industrialists. So Lincoln's stance was new States joining the union would be free states. The South could keep their slaves. The primary point was the Federal government was expanding its power and influence over State issues. Some States were fine with this, many States were against this. Its something that even to this day is argued over. The Feds say cannabis is illegal, some States say its not. The Feds say illegal immigrants should be deported. Some States and Cities disagree with that. So even today its a constant debate between Federal authority and States rights.

2. Only Southerners owned slaves?
No, slaves and indentured servants were owned all across the USA.

3. Several Union leaders owned slaves.
Its well documented General Grant's father n law owned many slaves. Four or five of them were given to Grants wife by her father. Its even well documented Grant was given one slave, who he freed soon after. Its also well documented that Grant's father n law had some financial hard times and sold several of his slaves to his daughter, Grants wife. Grant in letters to his wife even discuss purchasing them to help out her father financially. What became of these slaves is a matter of debate. No clear record explains what became of them.

4. The Confederate Flag flown over slave ships?
In 1807 the Federal government passed the Act Prohibiting Importation of Slaves. So it was illegal to bring new slaves into the USA after this. Now I'm sure there was a black market for bringing in new slaves and selling them. I'm also pretty sure Confederate Navy ships had a slave or two on them. But the meaning behind the question is did ships flying the Confederate flag partake in slave trading or smuggling. Currently there are no documents that support the Confederate government took part or condoned such activity.

5. Was the Confederate battle flag a national flag?
Officially No. But as Cleaburne1863 posted, the battle flag was just as symbolic of the Confederacy as their official flags.

6. Was the Confederate battle flag called the Stars & Bar?
Its well documented the first official flag of the confederacy was called the Stars & Bars. The Battle Flag was commonly called the southern cross in period documents.

7. Confederate Battle Flag represents racism today?
The KKK has used the battle flag but its not their official flag. Up until the 1950's, the battle flag was considered a symbol to represent southern veterans and values that had nothing to do with slavery. But, and this is a major but. lol In the 1950's the battle flag was used as part of segregationist symbolism in Georgia. It spread from there so in our modern times. The battle flag is considered to represent racism because of its connection with segregation movement. Why today you have a mix of people who look at the flag how it was viewed prior to the 1950's. Then you have other people who view it in the context of its use in the 1950's and the civil rights movement.

8. The USA Flag represents freedom?
Again like the confederate battle flag its all based on the perspective its viewed in. Most people consider the USA the land of freedom and the flag represents that. But if you look at it from the perspective of minorities, it can be viewed differently. One thing we can all agree on is our government has done some terrible things. We can't change that but we can try to prevent them from happening again in the future.

9. Abraham Lincoln the emancipator?
Before the ACW its documented Lincoln did not personally condone slavery. But he had no problem with the south keeping their slaves to keep the union together. Its also well documented Lincoln's emancipation of southern slaves was done in the hopes slaves in the south would rise up and revolt. Forcing the southern military to divert men and materials to deal with this. Its also documented Lincoln was discussing after the war moving freed slaves to south America or to a Caribbean island. But since he was murdered, we'll never know if he planned to follow through with the discussion. Lincoln was a man of his times and he was a politician. He knew with modern farming implements, it was a matter of time before slavery was not cost effective. So he had no problem letting it die out on its own.

10. The south revered slavery?
Again, slavery being used as a cheap labor source was coming to an end. The manufacturing of farming implements was slowly proving slave labor was not cost effective. But, there is no doubt people like being pampered and taken care of. So slavery as in servants doing house hold chores and such was not going to stop until there were laws stopping it. So in that aspect, I have no doubts the south revered their servants. Southerners today want to say their ancestors considered their house slaves as family and they were well treated. I'm sure many of them did. But that does not take away from the fact, they were slaves and had no choice!

11. The confederate Army was made up of rich slave owners?
Again, this is based on ones perspective. If you were a common soldier, its very doubtful you owned slaves. If you were higher ranking officer, more than likely your family did own slaves. Its estimated that one third of southerners owned slaves in 1860.

12. Only the north had men of color serve in the ranks?
Again, its well documents "men of color" served in southern units also. I'm sure each and everyone of them had their own reasons. But I'd bet a lot of them did it out of loyalty to a master who treated them well. Not because they felt slavery should be continued.

13. Confederate flag is authorized symbol for hate groups?
Many hate groups have used it but its not the authorized flag or symbol for the KKK or Aryan nations.

14. Sons of the confederate veterans a hate group?
No, Poverty Law Center that tracks hate groups does not list this group as a hate group. Poverty Law Center does monitor them. In the past members of hate groups have tried to join and influence Sons of Confederate Veterans organization.

wpilon Supporting Member of TMP04 Apr 2017 6:24 p.m. PST

Anyone who thinks the Civil War wasn't fought over slavery should read the various ordinances of secession passed by the traitors.

They might also reject upon the fact that not one single free state tried to secede.

This nonsense that the way was the result of something other than slavery was the rationalization these traitors came up with when they lost.

steve1865 Supporting Member of TMP05 Apr 2017 5:55 p.m. PST

Wpilon, you are right. Men of color served, yes but as servants. Many black me joined the union army very few joined the South.

Trajanus10 Apr 2017 8:38 a.m. PST

Anyone who thinks the Civil War wasn't fought over slavery should read the various ordinances of secession

That's the one I go back to every time this kind of thing crops up. Its all there in print and has been since 1861!

I have no idea what each and every man who joined the various Confederate armies thought he was fighting for but their elected representatives were in no doubt at all!

Tango01 Supporting Member of TMP16 Apr 2017 2:46 p.m. PST

Very good thread Ironwolf! (smile)

Thanks!.


Amicalement
Armand

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