"Want to see numbers grow........." Topic

Look at Warlords website. One side of the spectrum to another. We need to embrace all forms of gaming. Allow our vendors to demo these products and watch the membership grow. In our gaming group we play a large variety of games. It's like the old man in boogie nights explaining to Burt Reynolds the future is in video not film…

Membership of what?

Rangers, why exactly do I want to see the numbers of computer gamers and poker players grow? Why would we want to be in the same organization or attend the same convention?

If the point is just to be a member of a large organization, I suggest you join AAA. For myself, I think my AARP membership fills that need, thank you.

Ranger is commenting on some conventions that only allow certain game types. Figure no boards, WH40K not Nap/WW2, Wargames not "family' games, whatever.

It's a reasonable comment. In the previous century all the events I went to in the UK covered everything from 54mm Gladiators to 25mm SF skirmish with stops in the middle for set piece ECW / SYW / Naps etc.

It does help spread the gaming infection around.

Crispy hmgs membership, Robert look at Warlords site it's all miniature gaming. I don't need to be a member of a large organization but without new members our wonderful hobby will vanish. No agenda here but put it into perspective, a young person who games terminator warlord offers and he sees a demo of bolt action and plays and enjoys it who cares it's growing the hobby that's all I'm saying.

It's only a reasonable comment if one assumes that the purpose of HMGS is to grow as large as possible at any cost. (Hint: that is not its purpose.)

The hobby will only vanish if it consistently gets fewer new members than the number of members that depart (for whatever reason) and there's no reason to think that's happening, in spite of HMGS East's convention attendance struggles.

If you want to see numbers grow in any field of interest, simply do it very well and they will come.

So, multiculturalism comes to gaming. Wait…let me breakout my Orkbonics language guide!
Perhsps HMGS has jumped the shark and they don't know it……

> but without new members our wonderful hobby will vanish

Then it vanishes. I've seen what happens to groups that allow the new cool things in, they end up being about the new cool thing, which I was not interested in.

Example one – Origins started out as an effort by Avalon Hill and SPI to mostly promote wargaming. You can still find it at the con if look hard enough.

Local wargame group – It was a great place with 20+ gamers each month playing wargames of the board and miniatures variety. I went away a couple years and looked them up and there are only a handful of gamers left and most of them play Euros.

Adding the word "miniatures" gives you some sort of case, Rangers. "Gaming" gave you none.
But I'm leaving in the morning for the Seven Years War Association Annual Convention. Small, but I know there will be tricorne-era games, and the dealers will carry stuff useful to the SYW fan. If we "gre4w" the Association by turning it into a general gaming convention, nine games in ten would be fantasy and science fiction. The dealers, there being only so much room in the van, would be full of GW products, so I'd be back to mail order. After a year or two, the historical miniatures players wouldn't bother to show up.

This is how I lost the convention in my home town. It's still there, but theystopped being any use to the historical gamers about twenty years ago. The organizers sound very like you, by the way--excited about "gaming" and caring nothing for history. If HMGS gave up its historical focus, why should I travel a day each way to go there? GenCon is just down the road.

Out of curiosity, Are there TMP members who are model railroaders or stamp collectors? And do the related websites have people who tell you how many more people the model railroading conventions would have if they focused more on remote control aircraft, and how many more people would attend stamp collecting shows if they included movie memorabilia?

Because you can't throw a stick on TMP without hitting someone who wants to improve the hobby by getting rid of the miniatures, nor hold a discussion about historical miniatures conventions without attracting people who want to upgrade the convention by getting rid of the history.

yup – what he said

HMGS has never regulated the amount of non-historical/military games. For many years, it wasn't an issue. The founders were all focused on military history, as was the next group that came along to run the org.

Over the years, the BoD has changed many times. It had included many alt type gamers, sci/fi, fantasy, etc. The number of all games were increase to help build up attendance and push things to "the next level." The quest was for more numbers, it didn't matter who or what they played. The goal was to move to a nicer and bigger facility (not always the same thing). I was kind if an inside/outsider during this time as I worked for the BoD as a volunteer, and also worked different jobs at the cons.

The results are well know. Now, sifting through the rubble, left with a decaying facility that is trying to rebuild, a good number of moves for two of the cons – there is little stomach to return to the roots of the org. The leadership is not on board with that idea, instead fearing driving more attendees away.

I'm more of an originalist, my interest is in military history. I'd be okay with a slightly smaller con at a nicer (conference center vs convention center) facility. Not all agree (on much of anything).

Sci-Fi, Naps or Fantasy, so what. I've never seen a lack of historical games or a case of there not being enough room to replay the Battle Of Gettysburg. I got my start with 40k and Fantasy then the group I was playing with also had some history heads in it as well. So I started collecting historical armies too…For many of us non-historical was our gateway drug. I don't see a problem with it…And simply if you don't like it then kick rocks and don't participate…Some kid out there with an Ultra Marine army will take your place at the next Battle of Guadalcanal because it looks cool then the next day hell be down in the vendors hall buying US Marines and Japs…

Stepman, I'm having a little trouble following the reasoning. Since you don't care about history, no one else should?
Dynaman and I have both cited conventions and clubs which used to have a historical gaming focus, but got so "inclusive" that they are now of no use to historical gamers. You've cited yourself as an example of the contrary, and no doubt that happens. But can anyone cite me examples of clubs or cons which started out in fantasy and science fiction but which are now good places to go for historical games and the purchase of historical miniatures? Seems to me the traffic is pretty much one way.

And for that matter, for all the carping, what do any of you want the Historical Miniatures Gaming Society to do that it does not now do? There is no ban. About 10-15% of the gaming at any HMGS convention is fantasy or science fiction, which makes Cold Wars and Historicon bigger F&SF gaming conventions than a lot of regionals. Narratio didn't describe any type of game not regularly seen at Lancaster. There are dealers in the Tennis Barn who have never stocked a historical miniature, and more in the flea market. Rangers wants F&SF demos, but evidently "Mein Zombie" "Princess Ryan's Star Marines" and "Luftwaffe 1946" don't satisfy him. Just what exactly IS the agenda?

Where did I say I didn't care about history? Initially I didn't play historical games. I mean sure I used to push my Airfix Napoleonic's around the kitchen table or my Marx Fort Apache around the floor but it wasn't what I would call "wargaming"…My first organized games were 40K and Fantasy, then I found proper historical games…

When I lived in Cincinnati I joined. Still belong. Great group. They ran several cons and game days, published a newsletter, showed up at other events to recruit.

Now I'm back in Chicago. Other than run Little Wars my local chapter offers no reason to join. I can go to LW without the drama.

Stepman, when you say "Sci-Fi, Naps or Fantasy, so what?" you may play historical games, but it takes you out of the "cares about history" crowd.

Still waiting to hear what the "inclusive" people want HMGS to do--or to describe the convention or club where this has worked out well for the historical gamers.

I believe you guys are spot on in what you are saying. Without regulating all their games, the only outcome is to water down their product and mission. It has already occurred. I just don't understand why people go to a pie eating contest and complain when there isn't enough cake. We live in a very self-centered society.

Hey Robert no agenda.

Because I play other genera's means I don't care about history? Am I reading this wrong? I like steak but chicken is pretty good too. Is your logic that you cant like both, it's one or the other?

Isn't it "Self Centered" to be exclusionary to other types of wargamming? Maybe some kid fighting over a star base with 28mm space crusaders looks over from his game and sees a bunch of guys fighting for Carthage, it'll peak his interest enough to be curious and ask questions and maybe even want to play…

Like I said, there have always been non-historical games at HMGS cons, but at times they have almost gotten overwhelming.

HMGS has a clear purpose, whether you like it or not. It is not there to try to convert people by tricking them into attending one of their cons to play non-historical games in the hopes of them converting to historical miniatures. Seems like a rather thin excuse for people who want to play what they want to play to me.

In short, eat your chicken at home, and come to HMGS for the steak. If you don't like that, then I would suggest HMGS – whose game area is full of historical games – is perhaps not the right con for you.

And the idea if HMGS just converted to even more fantasy games it would have bigger attendance is just laughable.

Rangers, if there is no agenda--if there is nothing you want any of the rest of us to do--what on Earth was the point of your original post?

Stepman, (1) no one excludes other types of miniature wargaming from the HMGS conventions. I sometimes with they would. (2) There is an appropriate time and place for everything. There is nothing wrong with my "Han Shot First" t-shirt, but I didn't wear it while briefing, nor to church on Sunday. (3) Yes, having sex with lots of women indicates that your wife holds no special place even if she's also on the list.

We've all very patiently explained that historical miniature gamers generally have not had a good experience with the "wider hobby." Our concerns get stiffed. To which you keep saying "who cares?" Historical miniatures gamers care, obviously. which your inability to grasp or to be concerned with the point demonstrates that you aren't.

Look, I'm going off to the Seven Years War Association--which would NOT be improved by having twice as many 40K games. Why don't you guys spend the weekend at the local sushi bar or vegetarian restaurant, telling them how self-centered they are not to offer well-done steak?

@robert piepenbrink….
Man, it is hard to argue with that logic sir…. (your first post)…

I know those asking for diversity are not trying to be greedy for their own measure…. they are thinking sustainability… currently my younger kids are he into Star Wars miniatures… X-Wing and WotC minnis…. I hope to bring them into actual historical stuff as soon as I can. We want to be inclusive… actually bring of family to get them involved, but unfortunately.. an 8 year old is not too keen on Napoleonic war gaming….

We have to be honest, we are a, well.. different group of people… I would be absolutely OK with ONLY historical games, I honestly would… but AI think the general consensus is that it would kill HMGS….. I don't have an answer. I like ketchup on my steak…. so I anticipate no change or eviction of non-historic stuff form HMGS shows any time soon.

Your argument was VERY VALID though!

PS… I do not like ketchup on my steak, but thought it was a valid.. one thing to point out…. there are many cuts of steak, so where do you draw the line… a poorly put together historical game does much to harm while a very well run, pretty non-historical draws a crowd… where do we draw that line….

If we only allow top grade cuts and no chicken… we are indeed doomed to fail, we might as well just stay home with our little groups who are cookie cutters of ourselves…

Hey, I like Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, The Walking Dead too. But they have nothing to do with the traditional hobby of military miniature wargaming – which is what HMGS is (or was) supposed to be about.

As I said, HMGS has always had non-historical games, but without limitations the cons, dealers, flea markets, painting competition, Hobby U, and game awards have drifted into that realm. In other words, without limits, there are no limits.

To be fair, I think HMGS could also do a lot better job overall screening its games to ensure the games put on there are of a higher quality. You don't show up at a car show with your classic racing car still covered in primer and putty.

"I would be absolutely OK with ONLY historical games, I honestly would… but I think the general consensus is that it would kill HMGS…"

And that assumption is based on what facts? People here have repeatedly posted that they play both types of games. So why not steer them toward historical miniatures instead of hoping for the bait and switch tactic – which may work at a local hobby group, but seems to have little rational at a regional convention.

I can't speak for others, but I was always interested in military miniatures and history. Hoping people suddenly convert in a religious-like transformation at an HMGS con is absurd.

I'll give some hard examples. My friend and his son used to run WWII games for kids, using Forces of Valor figures and tanks. They won awards for their games at HMGS cons. Then the father and son saw the Teddy Bear games and started playing that instead. They quit putting and playing in historical games. Sadly, they don't attend HMGS cons anymore, and don't really game either.

Another friend was always into historical games. After many years he also got into fantasy games. Now he plays both. As I said before, the gate swings both ways.

And to be clear, I am not for banning anyone, but allowing the come one, come all mentality is not a good business model, either for types of games, HMGS branding, or quality of games put on at the cons.

I have a 15 year old and a 12year old. To them, Orcs and magic wands are the same as Romans and Gauls. Rangers has a point. This discussion is very interesting to me. I have two boys showing me it does not have to be one or the other. Dan, my two ( and thier father) love all things Star Wars. If fact we have 28mm and 15-18mm collections. I argue Star Trek and Star Wars are historical…. Due to thier respective ages.

While I am on a rant – here is a kind of compromise suggestion – while some gaming clubs take up some of the side rooms at the Host, perhaps the other rooms could be used specifically to put on non-historical games – as happens in the one room with Tech Wars.

There is nothing wrong with those rooms either – the lighting is actually better than the Distlefink, some have built in countertops to place gaming materials on, they are easier to run games in because they are quieter – but by placing these games there one could see how popular they are (or aren't) and they would be limited by the amount of space available (of course the size of the games would come into play as well).

Just a thought.

Rotundo:

Now that is just a silly argument that I hope was a bit tongue in cheek regarding Star Wars and Star Trek.

If a 15 year old can't tell the difference between Orcs, magic wands (now there is some real history, eh?), and Romans and Gauls, I suggest you immediately pull them out of the schools they attend and perhaps find a more competent educational system to place them in.

And here is the rub:

Playing wargames with Romans and Gauls is likely to have a person buy some books to learn about them – what tactics they used, what their equipment looked like, especially over a long period of time like the Roman empire – what colors the equipment is, how best to employ them, actually battles they fought in, learn about the commanders, etc.

Fighting with Orcs, etc, only enriches GW, and they learn nothing of history, military or otherwise.

Instead, shouldn't you, as a father, being pointing out the important of the Roman empire on the history of the world? How it still impacts us today? How Latin is the basis for all romance languages that are still in use? Isn't that how these cons should be used to actually have a teachable moment?

@History gamer… I know you don't mean segregate for any negative reasons… in fact…. since I had the pleasure of doing Fall-IN! I used to have all fantasy games, etc… in the Marietta…. BUT… 2 war games clubs took it over… so I was forced to place them elsewhere…

In fact, I use dot reserve the Business Center and Marietta areas for Fantasy, sci-fie, etc… and then the battletech group had the Kinderhook as a club.

I get you, believe me I do! There would have to be a concession of sorts form the membership though also…
The shows would be much smaller w/out the other games… (maybe?) and then for HMGS to be sustainable, prices would have to go up, as would membership and the venue needed might get smaller…

That is why I am NOT on the BoD…. I cannot make those decisions…. I do understand completely about the "floodgates" opening.

Would we limit ourselves to just being a Historic MINIATURE games society… ? (see what I did there?)

Times change, membership changes as do majority rule… I honestly think that there is a very good balance of games at the shows currently…. I do not know what I would change… I only want things to grow, get bigger, etc… I know bigger is not always better, but I do not want to be a part of an elitist snob group either… (not saying that is what you desire either).

To be fair, I think HMGS could also do a lot better job overall screening its games to ensure the games put on there are of a higher quality.

So a high quality fantasy game with excellent figures and terrain for 8 people that are having fun, or a 6 player historical using masking tape roads and unpainted figures. Which do you pick for the con?

History gamer, do you honestly think your father and son team that went from historical games to teddy bear games and eventually left gaming is some sort of cautionary tale?

I would guess that all non-historical games at HMGS cons are run by historical gamers who just have a wider interest that yourself. Why would a Fantasy or 40K fanatic come to a lousy historical con when he has something like Adepticon to go to?

Go look at Xintao posts on this board for his Eylau game, which won Best of Show! Then look at his Frostgrave game. This is the face of the typical "non-Historical gamer". (Except that his terrain is so much better)

Oh, and I think you missed Rotundo's point. I'm pretty sure his kids aren't conflating Romans and Orks. In fact I know they are not as one son played in my Late Roman vs Sassanid Persian Hail Caesar game on Friday night. After the game he told his Dad he needs to get more Romans.

Dan:

I have often gamed in the some of the side rooms. If gaming in them is a penalty, please penalize me next time I register a game. They are nice. It would be easier to see how well both types of games attract a crowd to play with some discrete separation.

And again, I am not, not, not, suggesting non-historical games be banned. Not. I am suggesting that some management of the games overall be done, including all types of games. No offense, but you seem to equate game growth with attendance growth. The two are not connected. Number of games has gone up exponentially over the years, all out of proportion to the attendees. Thus the organization has room to discriminate, in a good way. If you want people to come, then put on above average games, leave lots of space around the tables – it won't get as hot, stinky, or as loud. Makes the overall experience much better.

TSD101 – yes. I would rather see a nice looking fantasy game (note my comments above) than a masking tape, unpainted figure historical game. Please note, at the last con I saw unpainted stuff in both a historical game and a fantasy (GW stuff) game. Neither should have been put on there. Standards are standards – and HMGS cons seem to have none. That Frostgrave gaming at CW was stunning.

But note too, I don't see a lot of difference between the demand for more fantasy gaming at HMGS cons than I would a same demand for fantasy games at the Seven Years War convention. Both are supposed to have a focus. So if the SYW convention starts to drop attendance, or wants younger attendees, should they start including GW games?

I've run both fantasy and historical at the cons, but the last few I've run Frostgrave. Why? Because its simple to explain and play, and all my best painted terrain and figs are fantasy stuff which allows me to put on a nicer looking game.

Neither should have been put on there. Standards are standards

I have to agree that people who throw unpainted lead on the table looks bad. Who knows, it could be an enjoyable game but holy crap is it ugly.

Thank you Historygamer for seeing the humor in my post. Also thank you for the parenting tip. Having all these historical models around it never occured to me to even once discuss their place in history. Bowman points out this is-was a gateway drug to more historical play. I would also have Bowman know Seamus has three legions, six bolt throwers, and three medium calvary units ready to be painted over spring break and summer. Think one more bag of infantry would do.

@Historygamer….
No, we are in agreement.. LOL! no arguments here.
Being in a side room is DEFINITELY NOT a punishment.
The fantasy guys and gals actually liked being in there. It wasn't meant as a bad form of segregation by any account.

I try to group "like with like" so to speak…. if I can as a Event Manager… so no harm, no foul.

The reason the Marietta was no longer used as a general gaming room is that 2 clubs requested it and we try to use the side rooms as club rooms, so all around, the rooms are not a punishment at all.. they are used for clubs though… if they can fill them and keep them filled.

There were some issues at CW17 this year because we had a lot of last minute cancellations….

"History gamer, do you honestly think your father and son team that went from historical games to teddy bear games and eventually left gaming is some sort of cautionary tale?"

Well, yes. The gate swings both ways. The father/son team had not been exposed to fantasy games. It only happened at an HMGS show. Point being, conversion can happen both ways. I'm not sure why you are having trouble with that?

"I would guess that all non-historical games at HMGS cons are run by historical gamers who just have a wider interest that yourself."

So you are guessing, by your own admission. I don't know either, but they are eating cake at a pie eating contest, then some are coming on here and suggesting if we just had more cake we'd have more attendance, younger people, brighter teeth. I'm not the one suggesting that, but like others, I don't want to see the tail end up wagging the dag – which as others have pointed out, has occurred in other places.

"Go look at Xintao posts on this board for his Eylau game, which won Best of Show! Then look at his Frostgrave game. This is the face of the typical "non-Historical gamer". (Except that his terrain is so much better)"

Right. I mentioned that game. So what is your point? I have repeatedly said I am not advocating banning such games.

"Oh, and I think you missed Rotundo's point."

Really? Here is what he said:

"I have a 15 year old and a 12year old. To them, Orcs and magic wands are the same as Romans and Gauls. Rangers has a point. This discussion is very interesting to me. I have two boys showing me it does not have to be one or the other. Dan, my two ( and thier father) love all things Star Wars. If fact we have 28mm and 15-18mm collections. I argue Star Trek and Star Wars are historical…. Due to thier respective ages."

Seems pretty clear to me. Orcs and magic wands the same as Romans and Gauls. Check. Two boys showing me it does not have to be one or the other. Check. Star Trek and Star Wars are historical. Got it. Not difference. Maybe you missed his point, not me.

Why would a Fantasy or 40K fanatic come to a lousy historical con when he has something like Adepticon to go to?

Historygamer, you flatout missed my point. Your arrogance does not allow for any opinion but yours. Regardless of you obstinance just to futher your argument. I bet you don't have kids. I would add the cotinuation bet that you are devoid of humor. You just keep writing 90minute post about your unwavering advance of your idea. I will recruit my children and others with what they like, not what you deem correct. I also, really do not care what we call ourselves.

Never played 40k. EVER!

I'm not sure why you are having trouble with that?

I don't buy the fact that being exposed to fantasy games at a historical conventions leads one to necessarily drop historical gaming and eventually gaming altogether.

So you are guessing, by your own admission.

True. All my friends and many (hundreds) of others I know also play non-historical games, even if their main interest was always historical gaming. I suspect that that is the rule instead of the exception. I'm not aware of anyone, and have never met anyone at an HMGS convention that had no interest in historical wargaming. But I have met many (again 100's) at Adepticon, and Origins.

Right. I mentioned that game. So what is your point? I have repeatedly said I am not advocating banning such games.

Right. Your response clearly indicates you've missed my point as well. It had nothing to do with banning anything. It had to do with putting a face on gamers that enjoy historical and non-historical gaming. I even telegraphed it for you with, "This is the face of the typical "non-Historical gamer".

Seems pretty clear to me.

Apparently, its not.

Bowman, the reason my son played in your game was…."It looked fun". That is how you get them. Fun!. Very simple…it is toys for Christ's sake.

it is toys for Christ's sake.

Far too many people forget this

Historygamer, you sure do have lots of advice from parenting tips to how a convention should be run. Must be a heavy burden to bear…I beg to differ as I've stated previously I gamed Sci-Fi and Fantasy before historicals entered my radar. That's what I was exposed to. Then I was introduced to historicals. It can happen. People can play both and readily do. And a screening process to have some kind of oversight as to whats being played and appropriate. Are you volunteering to head up that committee, I'll pass on attending any convention that would have you be the judge, jury and executioner, deciding whats appealing and acceptable to you…I've also never played in any sanctioned game where I've had to sign up for. Now I've walked up and have been invited to play which was great. My best times have been impromptu games done spur of the moment. I've also had a blast playing Gnomes, Zombies and Star Wars…So continue to load your gun and proceed to shoot your foot off. All the concern with "Greying of the Hobby", who's going to take your place? Hopefully its some kid pushing elves around the battlefield but saw some fantastic ECW game being playing at the neighboring table…Now I need to go paint some Germans riding raptors I picked up from Eureka…

No doubt there are some who went from SciFi/Fantasy to historical but there have been many many more going from historical to scifi/fantasy and not looking back. All of my old gaming crew except me falls into that category and judging on the games on the shelves at almost (practically all) game stores that appears to be the trend everywhere.

As what to do – there is a great general purpose con right around the same time as historicon here in NJ called Dreamation, if I were interested in a general purpose con I would go to that.

Hand out soap at check in.

I think the soap would have to come with a tutorial to be truly effective