"US military branch seniority; Why is....?" Topic

Surprisingly, I could not find an answer to this on a general Google search, but I bet TMP members have vaster experience and knowledge. I'm curious about two things regarding military seniority in the US armed forces. I understand that the Army is ranked as senior to the Navy, but what is this based on? Wasn't the Navy established before the Army?

And what about the Coast Guard? It dates in its modern form and name from 1915 -- a generation or more before there was a US Air Force. yet the Air Force is ranked higher in seniority. What th--?

Who can help me with answers? Thanks!

Army was established June 14th 1775 when congress nationalized the militias surrounding Boston after Lexington and concord. The marines was established a couple months later. The navy was established after the decoration of independence and disbanded at the end of the revolution. The date for the permiment navy established is 1803.

Coast Guard has not always been a part of the Department of Defense. It was only part of the Navy during time of war, and otherwise was in the Dept. of Treasury in peace. So AF is senior.
Mike Bunkermeister Creek
Bunker Talk blog

In the UK, the order is Royal Navy, Army, Royal Air Force. The navy was established by either Edward the Confessor, Henry VIII, or Charles II (depending on who you believe and, in my experience, how drunk you are), whilst I think the Army dates from 1660 officially (some units pre-date that and go back to the New Model/Commonwealth) the British Army only dates from 1707, the RAF dates from 1st April 1918, when the Royal Naval Air Service and Royal Flying Corps (Army) were amalgamated.

In the UK, the order is Royal Navy, Army, Royal Air Force. The navy was established by either Edward the Confessor, Henry VIII, or Charles II (depending on who you believe and, in my experience, how drunk you are), whilst I think the Army dates from 1660 officially (some units pre-date that and go back to the New Model/Commonwealth) the British Army only dates from 1707, the RAF dates from 1st April 1918, when the Royal Naval Air Service and Royal Flying Corps (Army) were amalgamated.

And why isn´t the British army royal?

I think it was because there were so many scotch, irish and welshmen in the army Jack, winks.

The Army was raised by an act of Parliament to counter forces loyal to the King.

It's true that the modern British army traces its origin to Parlimentarian forces, but even before that, the army was composed of regiments which were raised and funded by their colonels.

(Ships, on the other hand, were commissioned by the crown, hence 'Royal Navy')

Just to confuse matters, some regiments were raised and funded by the crown, and do bear the title 'Royal'.
(And to muddy the waters further, some regiments were given the prefix 'Royal' as an honorific.) But the army as a whole does not.

And on a more basic level: both the Royal Navy and The Royal Airforce have Royal Charters authorising their establishment.
Because of its piecemeal regimental origins, the army does not.

I believe both the RN and USN claim their origins in Alfred the Great's navy , and both name ships after him.

So thats 9th century?

Yet even with seniority as described, the Marine Corps has the honorific of head of column and right of line in mixed formations.

Not sure your source Dn Jackson. I have not seen that in any ceremony.

According to this:
ORDER OF PRECEDENCE – UNITED STATES ARMED FORCES
Authority: Title 10, USC 113b, 133(b); DOD Directive 1005.8 dated 31 OCT 1977, certified as current on 21 NOV 2003 until further notice FOR USE WHEN IN PARADE OR INSPECTION FORMATION AND FOR DISPLAY OF FLAGS, SEALS, EMBLEMS, INSIGNIA, ETC.
The order of seniority and precedence is as follows
Army
Marines
Navy
Air Force
Coast Guard.
It also has a q and a on why if congress authorized the navy before the marines why the marines are more senior. The answer is the first officer commissioned in the marines was commissioned before the frist navel officer was commissioned.

And the USAF is senior to the USCG because the USAF
'parent', US Army (US Army Air Corps) is older than the
USCG.

What about the Salvation Army?

They went back into garrison after Christmas. They are being "saved" for future operations! When it comes to combatting holiday lonliness, they "Know Well". (Groan, I know, I know…couldn't resist!) It's always been the Salvation Air Force that makes visits to museums of planes worth while for us all!

The Coast Guard is under the Department of Homeland Security. Before DHS it was under the Department of Transportation. In war it would fall under DOD or the Navy, I think.

The Coast Guard was formerly part of the Treasury.

Order of Precedence is Army, Marines, Navy, Air Force/Coast Guard. Dn Jackson is incorrect in saying that the Marines have the lead in mixed formations.

The Army is first, as it was founded first as the Continental Army, and remained in existence throughout the nations history (later being rebranded as the United States Army).

The Marines come next because at the end of the Revolution both the Continental Marines and Continental Navy were disbanded. Even though the Continental Navy predates the Continental Marines (contrary to what Mikeda stated), and the United States Navy predates the United States Marines upon their reestablishment (again contrary to Mikeda), the Marine Corps has long been consistent in affirming its birth date as the Continental Marines birthdate, whilst the Navy has been inconsistant and for some time used its reestablishment as the US Navy as its birthdate, thus giving the Marines a technical age advantage over the Navy. Yhere have been some efforts and attempts to revise the order of precedence on that basis recently but they never went anywhere.

The Navy comes next, because as I said for a long time they went by the date of reestablishment rather than their original founding date as the continental navy.

The Air Force and Coast Guard are actually variable, the Air Force usually comes first, but if the Coast Guard is deputized as part of the Navy during wartime then the Coast Guard bumps the Air Force to last.

Yikes! This is all a lot more complicated and ambiguous/debateable than I'd imagined. So much seems to hinge on when what was established when, under what name, and then subsequent lineage/reorganizations/transfers.

In the UK, are the Household Guards considered in a different way from the rest of the Army, in terms of seniority, who they answer to, etc.? Don't all the Household troops answer directly, ultimately, to the monarch? Which may be in contrast to the "line" formations?

Yikes! This is all a lot more complicated and ambiguous/debateable than I'd imagined. So much seems to hinge on when what was established when, under what name, and then subsequent lineage/reorganizations/transfers.

Coast Guard getting tail end of the line comes from them not being a military organization 24/7. They're law enforcement that get 'deputized' into military service in case of War.

In the UK, are the Household Guards considered in a different way from the rest of the Army, in terms of seniority, who they answer to, etc.? Don't all the Household troops answer directly, ultimately, to the monarch? Which may be in contrast to the "line" formations?

Others may be able to give you a more precise answer, but the short version is "not any more, really". It used to be that the Foot Guards and Household Cavalry (Life Guards and Blues) were answerable only to the Sovereign – I think that the Composite Brigade of Foot Guards in the AWI was the first time they weren't commanded in the field by either the reigning monarch or his son. In theory, the Sovereign can mobilise these units without the permission of Parliament, but in reality this would not happen any more.

To give you two examples, the right flank (formerly "grenadier") company of the 1st Battalion, Grenadier Guards, is always styled The Queen's (King's) Company. They carry the body of a dead monarch at her/his funeral, and have a standard presented by a reigning monarch on her/his accession to the throne, and which is buried with that person. The Irish Guards has a "Queen's Drummer" who attends (ie attempts to control) the regimental mascot – a Wolfhound. The other five regiments of the Household Division also have specific, and unique, links with the Sovereign.

Thanks fellas for the answers to why there is no Royal Army.

Well there is the Royal Army Service Corps!!

Aka "Run Away, Someone's Coming".

As my pappy used to say old but here it comes anyway

US Marine Buddies been shot all around no support and out of ammo pulls out a side arm Thinks war is hell starts to fire.

US Army Shells going of all around him can not see any of his buddies checks his spare mags Thinks war is hell starts to fire.

US Navy Ship badly hit and sinking all alone loads gun Thinks war is hell starts to fire.

US Airforce Pilot wakes up finds air con not working and no Wi Fi Thinks war is hell and starts to think about getting another job

Sorry Flyboys but only you guys do not think this is funny.

If you give the command "SECURE THE BUILDING", here is what the different services would do:

The NAVY would turn out the lights and lock the doors.

The ARMY would surround the building with defensive fortifications, tanks and concertina wire.

The MARINE CORPS would assault the building, using overlapping fields of fire from all appropriate points on the perimeter.

The AIR FORCE would take out a three-year lease with an option to buy the building.

Hey jah1956, I'm a flyboy and I think it is funny. I've heard many variations of that joke over the years, some with pictures, and I always find them funny and think to myself how lucky I was to be in the Air Force.

ScottS: I'll bet the chocolate isn't even Hershey's! Where has our duty to support our troops with adequate supplies gone????

The Coast Guard was formerly Department of Treasury, but it was previously Department of Transportation before being moved to Homeland Security. This move was to enhance interdepartmental cooperation between Border Patrol, Immigration and Customs.

The Coast Guard has served under more departments than any other governmental agency.

ho-ho!! You flyboys, tars, and pongos crack me up! Good jokes. I'm sending these all to my brother-in-law the ex-USAF grunt.

And thanks, SM, for the overview of the British Guards situation.

Coming a bit late to this but seems a lot of confusion on the US Coast Guard when there shouldnt be, it is pretty well spelled out.

The Coast Guard got its start as the US Revenue Cutter Service (technically the Revenue Marine) on 4 August 1790 and was placed under the Secretary of the Treasury

On 28 Jan 1915 the US Revenue Cutter Service was merged with the US Life Saving Service and renamed US Coast Guard. They came under the Department of Treasury.

In 1967 they were moved to the Department of Transportation.

In 2003 they were moved once again to the Department of Homeland Security.

As far as not being part of the Armed Forces full time that simply isnt true. Title 10 of US Code defines the five uniformed services that make up the armed services as being the Army, Navy, Air Force, Marine Corps and Coast Guard.

Further title 14 of US Code states: "The Coast Guard as established January 28, 1915, shall be a military service and a branch of the armed forces of the United States at all times. The Coast Guard shall be a service in the Department of Homeland Security, except when operating as a service in the Navy."

Members of the Coast Guard are subject to the Uniform Code of Military Justice just like the other 4 uniformed services of the armed forces.

The Coast Guard operates under the Department of Homeland security unless a declaration of war, and the congress directs it, or if the President directs it in which case operations switch to the Department of Defense. At that time the Coast Guard serves as a service in the Department of the Navy.

And almost forgot, precedence is in order of official birthday:
Army 14 June 1775
Marine Corps 10 Nov 1775
Navy 13 Oct 1775 however abolished Feb 1781 and reinstated 7 Sept 1781 (reason it is "junior" to the Marines)
Air Force 18 Sept 1947
Coast Guard 4 Aug 1790

As mentioned Coast Guard is last when under the Department of Homeland Security. When it is under direction of the Department of Defense they do indeed exchange place with the Air Force in seniority

Huh… I wonder how well an appeal of some USCG-run law enforcement charges would go, since the USCG is a military organization and the Military isn't allowed to enforce laws on civilians!

The Coast Guard, under Title 14 USC, Section 2 is allowed to enforce US Federal laws. The Coast Guard is not subject to the restrictions of the Posse Comitatus Act. Further law enforcement authority is given to the Coast Guard under other Titles of the USC.

I'm sure it was more or less air-tight, Marc, but thank you for providing Title and Section.

Guess it will just be the Sovereign Citizen idjits trying that idea. (If you don't know who those guys are, count yourself lucky. Trying to follow their thought processes will kill brain cells!)

For those not aware of the Posse Comitatus Act it was signed into law by President Hayes in 1878 and is implemented under US Code. It was amended in 1956 to cover the Air Force and again in 1981. The goal of the Act is to limit the federal government from using federal military personnel to enforce domestic policies. While the Army and Air Force are specifically mentioned the Navy and Marines are not (imagine no one thought of their use in enforcing domestic policy at the time). However Department of the Navy regulations basically make both the Navy and Marines subject to the act. Note the Army and Air Force National Guards are NOT subject to the Act when mobilized by their State allowing those organizations to be used for law enforcement duties (like after a natural disaster). And also note the Coast Guard is not mentioned and as I said not subject to the Act.

Many folks are under the mistaken impression that use of federal troops are barred under the Constitution. As mentioned they are limited under US Code. And the Act is not an absolute with limited exceptions under the Act which does allow the President to use federal troops in a law enforcement role domestically. President Eisenhower did in 1957 in Little Rock. And troops may be authorized under the Insurrection Act which was invoked during the 1992 LA riots.