Barcephus | 13 Mar 2017 1:22 p.m. PST |
Are they different from the Later Napoleonic standards? Are they closer to SYW standards? Help me Obi Won. You're my only hope!! |
steamingdave47 | 13 Mar 2017 1:38 p.m. PST |
Paul authorised a new pattern of standards in 1797, so it is likely that by 1799 most regiments would have been issued with these. Essentially these had a double headed eagle, with crown over, surrounded by laurel leaf wreath in a central circle. Each regiment had a " white" standard ( white cross on appropriately coloured background colour for the regiment) and then each company had a coloured standard, with a cross. These crosses were subdivided in some cases and the field could also be coloured. Many regiments continued to carry this 1797 pattern through the early years of the Napoleonic wars, even after Alexander came to the throne and authorised a new pattern. |
forwardmarchstudios | 13 Mar 2017 2:21 p.m. PST |
They are- I recently found out when I made some Russian flags for a project I was working on. Here's some good info, and some flags as well: link Regiments/battalions officially had one flag per company in some years. I'm not sure if they actually carried that many flags around. I resolve the issue by giving each battalion two flags, a white flag for the Czar and a colored one. Double-flagged units always look good on the table! |
Barcephus | 17 Mar 2017 9:49 a.m. PST |
Two is my plan. can I get away with using facing colors for flags? I do not see any of Suvarovs battalions listed on Nap-flags Tanks for all the advice!
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von Winterfeldt | 17 Mar 2017 10:43 a.m. PST |
I don't think it is as simple as just facing colours, here from an article by Patrice Courcelle in Tradition. What regiments are you after, all of Suvarov's infantry?
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Barcephus | 17 Mar 2017 12:09 p.m. PST |
Thanks Von Winterfeld… yes doing his corp in 15mm |
Le Breton | 18 Mar 2017 4:03 a.m. PST |
15mm ? Really ? Wow ! They were issued 1 per company at that time. I think I have the right units. If you want others, just ask. Московский гренадерский полк – Moskovskiy grenaderskiy polk 1+9 flags of the 1797 model issued 15.IX.1798, poles fawn-colored replaced in 1800
Низовский мушкетерский полк – Nizovskiy mushketerskiy polk 1+9 flags of the 1797 model issued 15.IX.1798, poles white replaced in 1824
Тамбовский мушкетерский полк – Tambovskiy mushketerskiy polk 1+9 flags of the 1797 model issued 30.VII.1797, poles black replaced in 1815
Апшеронский мушкетерский полк – Apsheronskiy mushketerskiy polk 1+9 flags of the 1797 model issued 30.VII.1797, poles black replaced about 1840 I did not find images The "white" has a white cross with the corners halved rose and light blue (with the rose before the blue reading clockwise) The "colored" has a rose cross with the corners light blue Смоленский мушкетерский полк – Smolenskiy mushketerskiy polk 1+9 flags of the 1797 model issued 15.IX.1798, poles fawn-colored replaced 1800
Тульский мушкетерский полк – Tul'skiy mushketerskiy polk 1+9 flags of the 1797 model issued 30.VII.1797, poles coffee-colored replaced 1824 I did not find images The "white" was to have a white cross with the corners halved crimson and light blue (with the crimson before the blue reading clockwise) The "colored" was to have a crimson cross with the corners light blue However, a written report on the flags as issued termed the red "scarlet" instead fo "crimson" Архангелогородский мушкетерский полк – Arkhangelogorodskiy mushketerskiy polk 1+9 flags of the 1797 model issued 15.IX.1798, poles black replaced 1800
Бутырский мушкетерский полк – Butyrskiy mushketerskiy polk 1+9 flags of the 1797 model issued 5.VII.1798, poles black replaced 1816
Russian idea of "light-blue color" ("светло-голубой цвет")
decorations for the poles : the metalwork (including nailheads) is red-brass, the streamers are silver with black and orange details
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SJDonovan | 19 Mar 2017 3:18 a.m. PST |
For those interested in the 1797 flags, Jonathan Gingerich, author of the excellent Russian facings site link , has been doing some research into them and has unearthed some interesting stuff: link |
von Winterfeldt | 19 Mar 2017 5:30 a.m. PST |
@Le Breton Very nice – from where did you get the illustrations? |
Barcephus | 20 Mar 2017 1:30 p.m. PST |
Le Breton Tanks! I will look at my list to be sure and will let you know |
Barcephus | 21 Mar 2017 11:56 a.m. PST |
These are the listed regiments. are they known by different names? Schveikovsky, Musketeer Regiment Förster, Musketeer Regiment Tyrtov Musketeer Regiment Baranovsky Musketeer Regiment Rosenberg Grenadier Regiment Jung-Baden, Musketeer Regiment Dalheim Musketeer Regiments Miloradovich Musketeer Regiment |
Widowson | 22 Mar 2017 4:31 p.m. PST |
Be very careful. The flag site linked by ForwardMarch gives the impression that every regiment was issued with the Model 1800. In fact, very few regiments were issued with them. And to a lesser extent, the same goes for the Model 1803. There were entire divisions at Borodino still carrying their Model 1797 flags. It is definitely a case by case basis. Start with Viskovitov. He does indicate which units were issued with Model 1803 and 1806, and when. You can pretty much figure everyone else was carrying 1797. Like I said, only a very few regiments, like the Tavriches Grenadier Regiment, were ever issued the model 1800 flag. |
Le Breton | 22 Mar 2017 4:36 p.m. PST |
Von Winterfeldt: Most of the illustrations are from vexillographia.ru (and they note their source in each case). It is not original/archive research as to what exactly each regiment actually had with them and used on the campaign in Italy. But, the designs do reflect the ukases found in the PSZRI, and there was time in each case to "get right" with the regulations. Did all the regiments do this? Only the archives could provide a better answer than, "well, probably yes". The older looking print with the finial of the flag pole is from the Viskovatov. Widowson : I agree completely. I did show for each regiment when the 1797 model flags were authorized and when withdrawn, most indeed after 1812, just as you noted. Barcephus: We have the same list of regiments You have the regimental names (correctly) for the "shef" – a senior officer who was responsible to oversee the regiment, ranking above its commander. The regiments bore the name of their shef for a brief period under the Tsar Paul – the name changed whenever the shef was changed. Then they reverted to their traditional and typically gepgraphic names. It is usually easier to find information based on the geographic names, but you are completely correct to use the shef names for "1799-ish". Dates are all Old Style (Russian Julian calendar). I show the names applicable through 1799. Some had no changes, some had a changed person as shef and some had a name change only because the shef was promoted. You can immediately see how cumbersome was this system. The Tsar Alexander changed back to geographic names immediately – 9 days *before* his official coronation! Schveikovsky Musketeer Regiment = Smolenskiy mushketerskiy polk 31.X.1798 to 27.IX.1799 : Мушкетерский генерала-лейтенанта Повало-Швейковского полк / Mushketerskiy generala-leytenanta Povalo-Shveykovskogo polk 27.IX.1799 to 10.IX.1800 : Мушкетерский генерала-от-инфантерии Повало-Швейковского полк / Mushketerskiy generala-ot-infanterii Povalo-Shveykovskogo polk Förster Musketeer Regiment = Tambovskiy mushketerskiy polk 31.X.1798 to 22.I.1799 : Мушкетерский генерала-майора Ферстера полк / Mushketerskiy generala-mayora Ferstera polk 22.I.1799 to 29.III.1801 : Мушкетерский генерала-лейтенанта Ферстера полк / Mushketerskiy generala-leytenanta Ferstera polk Tyrtov Musketeer Regiment = Tul'skiy mushketerskiy polk 31.X.1798 to 30.IV.1799 : Мушкетерский генерала-майора Тыртова полк / Mushketerskiy generala-mayora Tyrtova polk 30.IV.1799 to 9.I.1800 : Мушкетерский генерала-лейтенанта Тыртова полк / Mushketerskiy generala-leytenanta Tyrtova polk Baranovsky Musketeer Regiment = Nizovskiy mushketerskiy polk 31.X.1798 to 16.I.1799 : Мушкетерский генерала-лейтенанта Львова 1-го полк / Mushketerskiy generala-leytenanta L'vova 1-go polk 16.I.1799 to 28.I.1801 : Мушкетерский генерала-майора Барановского 2-го полк / Mushketerskiy generala-mayora Baranovskogo 2-go polk Rosenberg Grenadier Regiment = Moskovskiy grenaderskiy polk 31.X.1798 to 8.VI.1800 : Гренадерский генерала-от-инфантерии Розенберга полк / Grenaderskiy generala-ot-infanterii Rozenberga polk Jung-Baden Musketeer Regiment = Butyrskiy mushketerskiy polk 31.I.1797 to18.V.1799 : Мушкетерский генерала-лейтенанта принца Баденского полк / Mushketerskiy generala-leytenanta printsa Badenskogo polk 18.V.1799 to 20.VI.1799 : Мушкетерский генерала-от-инфантерии принца Баденского полк / Mushketerskiy generala-ot-infanterii printsa Badenskogo polk Prince Karl Ludwig Friederich of Baden was known as "Baden the Younger", to differentiate him from his father Grand Duke Karl Ludwig. Unlike the others on this list, he was not an active shef of the regiment, but an honorary one – he was the brother-in-law of the future Tsar Alexander, Tsar Paul's son 20.Vi.1799 to 16.IX.1800 : Мушкетерский генерала-майора Велецкого полк / Mushketerskiy generala-mayora Veletskogo polk Dalheim Musketeer Regiments = Arkhangelogorodskiy mushketerskiy polk 31.X.1798 to 28.VI.1799 : Мушкетерский генерала-майора барона Дальгейма полк / Mushketerskiy generala-mayora barona Dal'geyma polk 28.VI.1799 to 29.III.1801 : Мушкетерский генерала-майора графа Каменского 2-го полк / Mushketerskiy generala-mayora grafa Kamenskogo 2-go polk Miloradovich Musketeer Regiment = Apsheronskiy mushketerskiy polk 31.X.1798 to 29.III.1801 : Мушкетерский генерала-майора Милорадовича полк / Mushketerskiy generala-mayora Miloradovicha polk |
Le Breton | 22 Mar 2017 4:55 p.m. PST |
Schveikovsky Musketeer Regiment = Smolenskiy mushketerskiy polk = Smolensk musketeer regiment Förster Musketeer Regiment = Tambovskiy mushketerskiy polk = Tambov musketeer regiment Tyrtov Musketeer Regiment = Tul'skiy mushketerskiy polk = Tula musketeer regiment Baranovsky Musketeer Regiment = Nizovskiy mushketerskiy polk = Niz musketeer regiment Rosenberg Grenadier Regiment = Moskovskiy grenaderskiy polk = Moscow grenadier regiment Jung-Baden Musketeer Regiment = Butyrskiy mushketerskiy polk = Butyrka musketeer regiment Dalheim Musketeer Regiments = Arkhangelogorodskiy mushketerskiy polk = Archangel musketeer regiment Miloradovich Musketeer Regiment = Apsheronskiy mushketerskiy polk = Apsheron musketeer regiment |
von Winterfeldt | 23 Mar 2017 12:01 a.m. PST |
@Le Breton Many thanks, excellent information |
Barcephus | 23 Mar 2017 12:15 p.m. PST |
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von Winterfeldt | 30 Mar 2017 5:43 a.m. PST |
i found that on Gallica not about flags etc. but about uniforms, maybe helpfull link |
Barcephus | 08 May 2017 12:45 p.m. PST |
My insidious plan is coming together. A question about cannon. I cannot find a list, detailed or otherwise, on what Suvorov is dragging along with him. Would it be safe to say a couple of med batteries per division and one or two heavy batteries for the Corps reserve? |
Le Breton | 08 May 2017 2:46 p.m. PST |
@ Von Winterfedlt Very nice – excellent preservation of the colors, I am thinking. Thank you very much, dear Colleague. @ Barcephus 25x Piedmontese 3-pounder (called 2-pounder in Russian service) mountain guns, broken down and carried by mules (so, less "dragging" than you would have imagined ….) TMP link
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Barcephus | 09 May 2017 9:53 a.m. PST |
Le Breton.: Thanks a ton so if I am guessing right, Suvovrov had nothing heavier. and used these as battalion guns? |
Le Breton | 09 May 2017 1:26 p.m. PST |
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von Winterfeldt | 09 May 2017 11:23 p.m. PST |
he would have used it as artillery not as battalion guns, which are asigned to an infantry battalion. In case you look at the terrain, it is high Alpine warfare – steep passes, narrow roads and lanes, narrow vallies, raging white water rivers, I travelled a large part of Suvarov's march in 1999, magnificient scenery. As for the campain in the plains of Northern Italy, along with the Austrians, might have been different then. |
Le Breton | 09 May 2017 11:29 p.m. PST |
I am sorry – I meant to say "yes, he had nothing heavier". As to method of employment, I would have to research more. I would take Von Winterfedlt's concept as the start. |