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"Suvorovs Infantry Standards 1799-ish" Topic


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678 hits since 13 Mar 2017
©1994-2017 Bill Armintrout
Comments or corrections?

Barcephus13 Mar 2017 1:22 p.m. PST

Are they different from the Later Napoleonic standards? Are they closer to SYW standards?

Help me Obi Won. You're my only hope!!

steamingdave4713 Mar 2017 1:38 p.m. PST

Paul authorised a new pattern of standards in 1797, so it is likely that by 1799 most regiments would have been issued with these. Essentially these had a double headed eagle, with crown over, surrounded by laurel leaf wreath in a central circle. Each regiment had a " white" standard ( white cross on appropriately coloured background colour for the regiment) and then each company had a coloured standard, with a cross. These crosses were subdivided in some cases and the field could also be coloured. Many regiments continued to carry this 1797 pattern through the early years of the Napoleonic wars, even after Alexander came to the throne and authorised a new pattern.

forwardmarchstudios13 Mar 2017 2:21 p.m. PST

They are- I recently found out when I made some Russian flags for a project I was working on.

Here's some good info, and some flags as well:

link

Regiments/battalions officially had one flag per company in some years. I'm not sure if they actually carried that many flags around.
I resolve the issue by giving each battalion two flags, a white flag for the Czar and a colored one. Double-flagged units always look good on the table!

Barcephus17 Mar 2017 9:49 a.m. PST

Two is my plan. can I get away with using facing colors for flags?
I do not see any of Suvarovs battalions listed on Nap-flags


Tanks for all the advice!

von Winterfeldt17 Mar 2017 10:43 a.m. PST

I don't think it is as simple as just facing colours, here from an article by Patrice Courcelle in Tradition.

What regiments are you after, all of Suvarov's infantry?

picture

Barcephus17 Mar 2017 12:09 p.m. PST

Thanks Von Winterfeld…

yes doing his corp in 15mm

Le Breton18 Mar 2017 4:03 a.m. PST

15mm ? Really ? Wow !

They were issued 1 per company at that time.
I think I have the right units. If you want others, just ask.


Московский гренадерский полк – Moskovskiy grenaderskiy polk
1+9 flags of the 1797 model issued 15.IX.1798, poles fawn-colored
replaced in 1800

picture

picture

Низовский мушкетерский полк – Nizovskiy mushketerskiy polk
1+9 flags of the 1797 model issued 15.IX.1798, poles white
replaced in 1824

picture

picture

Тамбовский мушкетерский полк – Tambovskiy mushketerskiy polk
1+9 flags of the 1797 model issued 30.VII.1797, poles black
replaced in 1815

picture

picture

Апшеронский мушкетерский полк – Apsheronskiy mushketerskiy polk
1+9 flags of the 1797 model issued 30.VII.1797, poles black
replaced about 1840
I did not find images
The "white" has a white cross with the corners halved rose and light blue (with the rose before the blue reading clockwise)
The "colored" has a rose cross with the corners light blue

Смоленский мушкетерский полк – Smolenskiy mushketerskiy polk
1+9 flags of the 1797 model issued 15.IX.1798, poles fawn-colored
replaced 1800

picture

picture

Тульский мушкетерский полк – Tul'skiy mushketerskiy polk
1+9 flags of the 1797 model issued 30.VII.1797, poles coffee-colored
replaced 1824
I did not find images
The "white" was to have a white cross with the corners halved crimson and light blue (with the crimson before the blue reading clockwise)
The "colored" was to have a crimson cross with the corners light blue
However, a written report on the flags as issued termed the red "scarlet" instead fo "crimson"

Архангелогородский мушкетерский полк – Arkhangelogorodskiy mushketerskiy polk
1+9 flags of the 1797 model issued 15.IX.1798, poles black
replaced 1800

picture

picture

Бутырский мушкетерский полк – Butyrskiy mushketerskiy polk
1+9 flags of the 1797 model issued 5.VII.1798, poles black
replaced 1816

picture

picture

Russian idea of "light-blue color" ("светло-голубой цвет")

picture

decorations for the poles : the metalwork (including nailheads) is red-brass, the streamers are silver with black and orange details

picture

SJDonovan19 Mar 2017 3:18 a.m. PST

For those interested in the 1797 flags, Jonathan Gingerich, author of the excellent Russian facings site link , has been doing some research into them and has unearthed some interesting stuff:

link

von Winterfeldt19 Mar 2017 5:30 a.m. PST

@Le Breton

Very nice – from where did you get the illustrations?

Barcephus20 Mar 2017 1:30 p.m. PST

Le Breton
Tanks! I will look at my list to be sure and will let you know

Barcephus21 Mar 2017 11:56 a.m. PST

These are the listed regiments. are they known by different names?

Schveikovsky, Musketeer Regiment

Förster, Musketeer Regiment

Tyrtov Musketeer Regiment

Baranovsky Musketeer Regiment

Rosenberg Grenadier Regiment

Jung-Baden, Musketeer Regiment

Dalheim Musketeer Regiments

Miloradovich Musketeer Regiment

Widowson22 Mar 2017 4:31 p.m. PST

Be very careful. The flag site linked by ForwardMarch gives the impression that every regiment was issued with the Model 1800. In fact, very few regiments were issued with them. And to a lesser extent, the same goes for the Model 1803. There were entire divisions at Borodino still carrying their Model 1797 flags. It is definitely a case by case basis.

Start with Viskovitov. He does indicate which units were issued with Model 1803 and 1806, and when. You can pretty much figure everyone else was carrying 1797. Like I said, only a very few regiments, like the Tavriches Grenadier Regiment, were ever issued the model 1800 flag.

Le Breton22 Mar 2017 4:36 p.m. PST

Von Winterfeldt:
Most of the illustrations are from vexillographia.ru (and they note their source in each case). It is not original/archive research as to what exactly each regiment actually had with them and used on the campaign in Italy. But, the designs do reflect the ukases found in the PSZRI, and there was time in each case to "get right" with the regulations. Did all the regiments do this? Only the archives could provide a better answer than, "well, probably yes".
The older looking print with the finial of the flag pole is from the Viskovatov.

Widowson :
I agree completely. I did show for each regiment when the 1797 model flags were authorized and when withdrawn, most indeed after 1812, just as you noted.

Barcephus:
We have the same list of regiments
You have the regimental names (correctly) for the "shef" – a senior officer who was responsible to oversee the regiment, ranking above its commander. The regiments bore the name of their shef for a brief period under the Tsar Paul – the name changed whenever the shef was changed. Then they reverted to their traditional and typically gepgraphic names. It is usually easier to find information based on the geographic names, but you are completely correct to use the shef names for "1799-ish".

Dates are all Old Style (Russian Julian calendar). I show the names applicable through 1799. Some had no changes, some had a changed person as shef and some had a name change only because the shef was promoted. You can immediately see how cumbersome was this system. The Tsar Alexander changed back to geographic names immediately – 9 days *before* his official coronation!

Schveikovsky Musketeer Regiment = Smolenskiy mushketerskiy polk
31.X.1798 to 27.IX.1799 : Мушкетерский генерала-лейтенанта Повало-Швейковского полк / Mushketerskiy generala-leytenanta Povalo-Shveykovskogo polk
27.IX.1799 to 10.IX.1800 : Мушкетерский генерала-от-инфантерии Повало-Швейковского полк / Mushketerskiy generala-ot-infanterii Povalo-Shveykovskogo polk

Förster Musketeer Regiment = Tambovskiy mushketerskiy polk
31.X.1798 to 22.I.1799 : Мушкетерский генерала-майора Ферстера полк / Mushketerskiy generala-mayora Ferstera polk
22.I.1799 to 29.III.1801 : Мушкетерский генерала-лейтенанта Ферстера полк / Mushketerskiy generala-leytenanta Ferstera polk

Tyrtov Musketeer Regiment = Tul'skiy mushketerskiy polk
31.X.1798 to 30.IV.1799 : Мушкетерский генерала-майора Тыртова полк / Mushketerskiy generala-mayora Tyrtova polk
30.IV.1799 to 9.I.1800 : Мушкетерский генерала-лейтенанта Тыртова полк / Mushketerskiy generala-leytenanta Tyrtova polk

Baranovsky Musketeer Regiment = Nizovskiy mushketerskiy polk
31.X.1798 to 16.I.1799 : Мушкетерский генерала-лейтенанта Львова 1-го полк / Mushketerskiy generala-leytenanta L'vova 1-go polk
16.I.1799 to 28.I.1801 : Мушкетерский генерала-майора Барановского 2-го полк / Mushketerskiy generala-mayora Baranovskogo 2-go polk

Rosenberg Grenadier Regiment = Moskovskiy grenaderskiy polk
31.X.1798 to 8.VI.1800 : Гренадерский генерала-от-инфантерии Розенберга полк / Grenaderskiy generala-ot-infanterii Rozenberga polk

Jung-Baden Musketeer Regiment = Butyrskiy mushketerskiy polk
31.I.1797 to18.V.1799 : Мушкетерский генерала-лейтенанта принца Баденского полк / Mushketerskiy generala-leytenanta printsa Badenskogo polk
18.V.1799 to 20.VI.1799 : Мушкетерский генерала-от-инфантерии принца Баденского полк / Mushketerskiy generala-ot-infanterii printsa Badenskogo polk
Prince Karl Ludwig Friederich of Baden was known as "Baden the Younger", to differentiate him from his father Grand Duke Karl Ludwig. Unlike the others on this list, he was not an active shef of the regiment, but an honorary one – he was the brother-in-law of the future Tsar Alexander, Tsar Paul's son
20.Vi.1799 to 16.IX.1800 : Мушкетерский генерала-майора Велецкого полк / Mushketerskiy generala-mayora Veletskogo polk

Dalheim Musketeer Regiments = Arkhangelogorodskiy mushketerskiy polk
31.X.1798 to 28.VI.1799 : Мушкетерский генерала-майора барона Дальгейма полк / Mushketerskiy generala-mayora barona Dal'geyma polk
28.VI.1799 to 29.III.1801 : Мушкетерский генерала-майора графа Каменского 2-го полк / Mushketerskiy generala-mayora grafa Kamenskogo 2-go polk

Miloradovich Musketeer Regiment = Apsheronskiy mushketerskiy polk
31.X.1798 to 29.III.1801 : Мушкетерский генерала-майора Милорадовича полк / Mushketerskiy generala-mayora Miloradovicha polk

Le Breton22 Mar 2017 4:55 p.m. PST

Schveikovsky Musketeer Regiment = Smolenskiy mushketerskiy polk = Smolensk musketeer regiment
Förster Musketeer Regiment = Tambovskiy mushketerskiy polk = Tambov musketeer regiment
Tyrtov Musketeer Regiment = Tul'skiy mushketerskiy polk = Tula musketeer regiment
Baranovsky Musketeer Regiment = Nizovskiy mushketerskiy polk = Niz musketeer regiment
Rosenberg Grenadier Regiment = Moskovskiy grenaderskiy polk = Moscow grenadier regiment
Jung-Baden Musketeer Regiment = Butyrskiy mushketerskiy polk = Butyrka musketeer regiment
Dalheim Musketeer Regiments = Arkhangelogorodskiy mushketerskiy polk = Archangel musketeer regiment
Miloradovich Musketeer Regiment = Apsheronskiy mushketerskiy polk = Apsheron musketeer regiment

von Winterfeldt23 Mar 2017 12:01 a.m. PST

@Le Breton

Many thanks, excellent information

Barcephus23 Mar 2017 12:15 p.m. PST

@Le Breton
Thanks a ton!

von Winterfeldt30 Mar 2017 5:43 a.m. PST

i found that on Gallica

not about flags etc. but about uniforms, maybe helpfull

link

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