"Mix of M60A1 and M60A3 in Europe?" Topic

Does anyone know the approximate ratios of M60A1s to M60A3s in Europe, during the 1980s?

Obviously, I suspect, the numbers of M60A3s would have been increasing there, from the late 1970s, since I've read that the more modern variant started a low-rate production back as far as 1976, IIRC.

M60A1s were apparently produced through 1980, and it appears at least during the early 1980s that the earlier M60A1 variants would have been the predominant US Army tank in Cold War Europe.

If Wiki is correct, the M60A2s were retired from active units in 1981.

I'm interested in rough ratios of M60A1s to M60A3s, for the early 1980s, mid-1980s, and late-1980s.

It'd be great if there is a listing by unit numbers and/or types too, as to which armored divisions, tank brigades, battalions, etc., had which tank.

Anyone have any info on that?

While we're at it, might as well ask what the rough ratio of M-1s in Cold War Europe was too, by the mid-1980s, and late-1980s, I suspect, as well?

Hi Mako,

I'll have to do some digging on various units and dates. But pretty much M60A1s were basically gone from front line USAREUR units by 1984.

From a friend who was in V Corps: "Back in 1978, a conference was held to establish the fielding of all of the planned new equipment expected in the 1980's. V Corps had the priroity, so it wanted the thermal sights that were supposed to be in the M60A3; so VII Corps would get the M1 tank first. The first version of the M60A3 that began fielding in 3AD, V Corps, in 1979 did not have the TTS; neither did the M60A3's fielded to the 11ACR in 1980. The TTS was retrofitted to these tanks in 1982.

Based on the conference, the general flow of new equipment fielding: except with the M1 and BFV fielding's.
11 ACR in V Corps
3ID in VII Corps
2AD(F) [III Corps]
2ACR
3AD
1AD
8ID

M60A3 fielding: It started with the two armor battalions in 1st Bde, 3rd AD, then in the 11th ACR – 1st Sqdn, 2nd Sqdn, then 3rd Sqdn (the only time this occurred – later it went 1st, 3rd, 2nd for the Abrams and CFV fielding). Then to the 2nd ACR, followed by 3rd AD, 1st AD and then 8th ID. The TTS retro-fit occurred from 1981-1982 for the tanks in 1st Bde, 3rd AD, 11th ACR, and 2nd ACR. The M60A3 finished fielding in 1Q FY 1984."

The last unit to transition to M60A3 was 2-68AR of 2nd Bde, 8th ID, they did that in 1Q FY1984.

3rd ID never received the M60A3, they went directly from M60A1 to M1 starting in 1982. However their DivCav Squadron, 3-7 Cav, would still have M60A1 and M113/ITV; they would retain their M60A1 tanks until the M3 CFV fielding. (Under the Division 86 reorganization, the Div Cav went to a Bradley pure organization with two ground troops).

11th ACR got M1s in 1983.

From my memory, i think 2nd ACR went to M1s in 1984 along with 2AD(FWD).

I think 3AD got theirs in 1985, while 8ID went straight to M1A1 in 1988ish. Not terribly sure on 1AD, sometime between 85 and 88 though.

Now as far as Reforger units and POMCUS sites, i have no idea. My main area of interest is early 80s USAREUR.

Hope that helps,
Max

All USAREUR tank battalions received the M1A1 by the end of 1989 and all POMCUS facilities were equipped by June 1991, according to Zaloga.

During REFORGER '86 some units like ARNG separate mechanised 32nd "Red Arrow" Infantry Brigade or regular 1st Infantry Division (Mech) were lifted to Germany and operated M60A1 (RISE/PASSIVE), which were probably out of regular service in Europe around 1984.

Thanks guys.

That is very helpful.

So, no M60A1s by mid-1980s then. That is good to know.

It would be interesting to know the ratio of M60A3s to M-1s, by the time periods above.

I know there were only about 170 of the latter produced by 1981, and I'm not sure how many of those would have been sent to Europe, but imagine many, if not most of them, other than perhaps those kept back in the states for training (assuming that was done – perhaps better to train and deter the Sovies/WARPAC in Europe).

My battalion had all of it's M60a3's by Christmas 1981, 1/13 Ar, 1st Bde, 1st AD. The a3's were a stop gap until the M-1's could be fielded so the rush was on to get them fielded quickly to units in Europe.
Stateside was a much different story. Many units kept their a1's until late 1980's and some NG units still running in M-48's. Went on REFORGER exercise in 1986 with the 1st ID and we drew M-60a1's out of storage in Germany. Stateside units were equipped with the newer tanks when they had a matching set in storage overseas. No M-1's for the 1st ID until 1988.

Hi Mako,

1982:
M60A1 (8ID)
M60A3 (1AD, 3AD, 2AD(FWD), 2ACR, 11ACR)
M1 (3ID)

1983:
M60A3 (1AD, 3AD, 2AD(FWD), 2ACR, most of 8ID)
M1 (3ID, 11ACR)

1984:
M60A3 (1AD, 3AD, 8ID)
M1 (3ID, 11ACR, 2ACR, 2AD(FWD))

1985
M60A3 (1AD, 8ID)
M1 (3ID, 11ACR, 2ACR, 2AD(FWD), 3AD)

I think 1AD was 86 or 87 to M1.

Then i think 8ID went to M1s in 1988ish, and i think 1ID(FWD) was about the same time. Late 80s aren't my area really. Likewise with M1 IP and M1A1, cant help much there.

That should get you in the ballpark.

my unit converted to the A3's in Sep 81. 1/37th 1st AD.

Just a side bar about the M1 IP. At Ft. Benning, GA. The 197th Mech Bde's Tank Bn, the 2-69 AR. Had 3 M60A1 Cos and 1 M1 IP Co. The Bde Cav Trp, was still using M60A1s. And like the rest of the Bde, M113s. When I was there, '86-early '90 …

Excellent info.

Thank you all. I really appreciate it.

I believe people are confused between the two types….Although I can't talk about ratios, I know that in the First Cavalry Division we already had M60A3s when I reported to my armor battalion in 1978 and ditto for the 2AD which was our sister armored division in III Corps at Fort Hood. And we were not a high priority unit.

No confusion here; my knowledge is limited to USAREUR though. Would make sense to field the newer models stateside first to work out any teething problems, closer to factory support.

I know the Brads were fielded stateside first, and now that i think about it, so were the Abrams (I think) to units at Hood, I want to say 2AD.

So somewhere around 1989 or 1990 8th ID went to M1A1s. I think it was right before I got there in April '90. On a side note 8th ID did not get Bradley's until late 1991 after the first Gulf War.

I do also remember seeing M60A3's on REFORGER '87; as far as I remember they belonged to Guard units.

I vaguely remember the NG units receiving M1s in the 1985. I want to say it was either parts of the NC ARNG maybe the 252nd Armored BDE operating M1s. The first time I saw them at Ft Bragg in 85. I was Infantry not Armor anyway…I guess they phased out their M48s for M1.

I vaguely remember the NG units receiving M1s in the 1985. I want to say it was either parts of the NC ARNG maybe the 252nd Armored BDE operating M1s. The first time I saw them at Ft Bragg in 85. I was Infantry not Armor anyway…I guess they phased out their M48s for M1. Of Course that was CONUS not USAREUR.

I found this list on Wiki, for 1981/1982:

link

Man, there's a lot of really old stuff still in use in the early 1980s.

Would love to see one for 1985/1986, and also 1989, just for grins.

I tried looking up the CFE numbers, but just got generalizations, and no specific breakdowns by model for the US/NATO.

Also found this:

"During FY 1989 the 1st Cavalry Division, the 4th and 24th Infantry Divisions (Mechanized), and the 1st Battalion, 69th Armor, replaced older MBTs with the M1. The fielding of M60A3 tanks to reserve component units also continued during FY 1989".

Yeah there were NG units that got M1s before active duty did. I know the 155th Armor Brigade from Mississippi (roundout Brigade for 1st Cavalry) for sure.

According to the 89 NATO OoB, 1-252AR of the NC NG was part of 30th Mechanized Infantry Brigade with a NATO mission, while 2-252AR looks like it was a roundout battalion for 2nd Brigade, 2AD; so it would make sense for these NG units to get M1s to be on par with their active duty partners in the division.

Of course there wwere plenty of NG units that still operated M48A5, M60A1, and M60A3 as well.

I would have thought 1st Cavalry Division would have transitioned to M1s earlier than FY89, but again my knowledge on CONUS units (especially in the late 80s) is not great.

I know the Brads were fielded stateside first,

We still had M113s with the 197th Mech '86- early '90.

And in the ROK '84-'85, with the 2ID all Mech had M113s. And Tanks were M60A1s. There were no M1s or M2/M3s in country at that time. But AFVs were prioritized to Europe. Where the threat from massive waves of enemy AFVs was more likely to happen.

Just dusted off some of my old books. Zaloga says M1s were fielded first to 2AD and 1CD before going to 3ID in Germany in 81/82.

The Brads followed the same pattern, going to 2AD first in 82, then to 3ID in 83. Looks like 2AD at Hood was the test bed before units overseas got them. Bradley production was awfully slow, units got re-equipped at a much slower rate than with the Abrams.

Yeah Korea was way down the priority list

I ran across another historical article which mentioned the Marines still using M60A1s in the early 1990s.

Presumably, at least some of those had the bolt on slab armor plating.

I think they were used in the 1st Gulf War.

I was also surprised to see that in 1989, presumably at the height of the Cold War (arguably – definitely, at least in terms of equipment upgrades), that we only had three Armored Divisions – 1st, 2nd, and 3rd, plus various Mech., Cav., and Infantry Units, and not counting the Marines.

Still though, that is a bit of a surprise to me. Also, in the listing 2nd Armored is listed as (-), so presumably was not fully equipped at that time. It didn't mention if some of the division was siphoned off to serve in another unit, or separately, or if it was in the process of being re-equipped.

Yeah the Marines kept the A1s throughout the decade, took some to Iraq, some Marine tank units got M1 for the ground assault though.

The various "Armored, Mechanized, Cavalry" designations were mostly historical, ie to keep the divisional tradition going. In the Division 86 organization the only difference between an Armored division and a Mech infantry division was the armored division had one more tank battalion than the mech division. Everything else was the exact same. So you can pretty much treat every Armored, Mechanized Infantry, and Cavalry Division the same.

Im not sure which OoB you're referring to, but my guess the reason there's a (-) for 2AD is because at that point they had one brigade forward deployed to Europe, so only two Brigades from the division were on Hood.

There were pics of the USMC M60A1s in Kuwait City. If I recall they were involved in some fighting with Iraqi units near the Airport. Wasn't it the Iraqi 3rd Armored Div against task force Ripper?

Im not sure which OoB you're referring to, but my guess the reason there's a (-) for 2AD is because at that point they had one brigade forward deployed to Europe, so only two Brigades from the division were on Hood.

That is how I would read it too. 2AD(-) would denote the division was not complete or together in one location, etc. Part of it maybe detached. IIRC, A Bde of 2AD from Europe was deployed to Iraq. Hence the 2AD(-) was stateside at Hood …

Slight clarification to my previous post about Mechanized Infantry vs Armored Divisions:

Under the H-Series TOE, the Mech Division had 4 x Armor battalions, 6 x Mech Infantry battalions while the Armored Division had 6 x Armored battalions and 5 x Mech infantry battalions.

In the J-Series TOE (Division 86), the Mech Division had 5 x Armor and 5 x Mech infantry battalions, while the Armored Division had 6 x Armored and 4 x Mech infantry battalions.

Since it came up, all three USMC Tank Battalions had M-60A1s when the 1st Gulf War started. M-1A1s were "on the way," but had not arrived to the units yet.

1st and 3rd Tanks went over with M-60A1s and used them in the war. 2nd Tanks – from Camp Lejeune – went over with M-60A1s, then subsequently received M-1A1s. All of the M-60A1s had add-on/reactive armor.

Source – I was with 1st Tks and was there.

Excellent info.

Thank you for sharing.

How were the US Cavalry Divisions structured, or different, in terms of tank and mech battalions, and other equipment, from the tank and mech divisions?

1st Cavalry Division was an Armored Division in all but name.

Yes, the 1st Cav after Vietnam eventually became a Armored Div. As Max pointed out. With 6 Tank & 4 Mech Bns. And you can see with either H or J TO&Es. They were designed for a conventional war in Europe or the Mid East.

I was with a Mech Bn in the ROK with 2ID, '84-'85, when the J conversion occurred. But the 2ID had unique organization at that time.

2 AR Bns
2 Mech Bns
3 Inf Bns
1 ACAV Bn