Help support TMP


"A Matter of Saxon ( infantry)" Topic


40 Posts

All members in good standing are free to post here. Opinions expressed here are solely those of the posters, and have not been cleared with nor are they endorsed by The Miniatures Page.

For more information, see the TMP FAQ.


Back to the Napoleonic Painting Guides Message Board

Back to the 19th Century Media Message Board

Back to the Napoleonic Media Message Board

Back to the Napoleonic Discussion Message Board



2,545 hits since 7 Mar 2017
©1994-2017 Bill Armintrout
Comments or corrections?

marshalGreg07 Mar 2017 9:13 a.m. PST

I am in the process of finishing my 1806 Saxon support to my Prussian 1806 Army of Hohenlohe.

There are 3 regiments that seem to be in conflict as to their facing color.
These regiments are:
V Low
V Clemens
p. Rechtin

My source information is limited as to Philip J. Haythornthwaite et. al.

Tome V has this:

picture

with
V Low -in Green
V Clemens- in D blue
Rechtin- in D red

Many of the published sources and gamer's troop painting are inline with this scheme.

The adverse….
Plates of Alexander Sauerweid:
link
V Low -in Blue
V Clemens- in Green
Rechtin- in yellow
I have two other sources ( can't name at the moment since away from them) which are inline with this scheme.

Which is more correct?
Is there a definitive source that can make that conclusion?
Pls advise if you can.

thanks you

MG

keithbarker07 Mar 2017 9:54 a.m. PST

I have Poles & Saxons of the Napoleonic Wars which gives

von Low – Light Green
Prinz Clemens – Dark Blue
von Rechten – Purple Red

Not sure if this helps, but it seems to agree with your print!

picture

mollinary07 Mar 2017 11:21 a.m. PST

Sauerwald's plates date from after the reorganisation of the army, and the reduction in number of infantry regiments. Fiebig's book on Flags of the German armies, has, in 1806, Rechten – Crimson
Von Low – Green
Print Clemens – Dark Blue

Mollinary

marshalGreg07 Mar 2017 11:38 a.m. PST

@Mollinary,
Any idea on where to get the changes from the reorganization to understand what may have been what in 1806 until 1810?
And does that possibly mean both are correct and indicate prior was:
V Low -in Green
V Clemens- in D blue
Rechtin- in D red
then moved to in 1810 to:
V Low -in Blue
V Clemens- in Green
Rechtin- in yellow
If so… this conflicts with my 1812 sources info of Phillip H


@ Kiethbaker Is Nafziger's book have definitive source stated and as to who?
Curious

MG

mollinary07 Mar 2017 11:48 a.m. PST

Hi Marshal,

This is not really my greatest period of expertise, and it would take me a bit of time to get into it. However, a good starting point would be Calpe Miniatures site, which has a special resource on the Saxon Army of this period. A complicating factor is that after the disaster in 1812, there were further changes, and regiments ended up with flags which differed from their facing colours.

Mollinary

Ed von HesseFedora07 Mar 2017 12:00 p.m. PST

MG,

Here is a link, in German but decipherable, of the Saxon infantry in 1806:

link

Then, you can see here what was left after the reorganization in 1810.

link

Sadly, my books are in storage and I can't find better information at the moment.

mollinary07 Mar 2017 12:13 p.m. PST

Right, Just checked in Wolfgang Friedrich's books on the Saxon Army. He confirms your colours for 1806-1809, and the others, (Rechten yellow, Low blue, Clemens green) for 1810-13.

Mollinary

The Wargaming Company07 Mar 2017 12:29 p.m. PST

Greg,

When working on the plates for our Campaign Guides we found sources largely in agreement that during the early period through 1809 the von Löw Infantry Regiment was in green. Once the uniform transition was completed post-1810 the von Löw Infantry Regiment was seen in blue.

Thus, the von Löw Infantry Regiment appears differently in our 1813 Campaign Guide than it will in our recently announced 1809 Campaign Guide.

While the facing colors of the von Löw Infantry Regiment remained the same from 1806 to 1809, their uniform did change, most notably their pack and according to some sources their strap configuration.

-TWC
thewargamingcompany.com

keithbarker07 Mar 2017 1:17 p.m. PST

No there was no specific source that I could find in the Nafziger book for the uniform colours of the Saxon line infantry!

SJDonovan Inactive Member07 Mar 2017 1:29 p.m. PST

For 1806 W. J. Rawkins in 'The Royal Saxon Army 1792-1814' has Prinz Clemens in Dunkelblau (Dark  Blue); von Rechten in Karminroten  (Crimson) and von Low in Gras-­Grün (Grass Green) all with brass buttons. In the notes Rawkins says: "The colour given as crimson was a deep wine red from 1786 but certainly not the purple formerly worn by the Regiment von Thiele in 1763 as given by some modern sources."

The Rawkins guide is excellent and remarkable value for money. You can get it from: link

mollinary07 Mar 2017 1:34 p.m. PST

Looks like we are reaching a consensus!

marshalGreg07 Mar 2017 1:39 p.m. PST

Thanks all
Very interesting.
I have reconfigured my paint scheme accordingly

MG

von Winterfeldt07 Mar 2017 2:03 p.m. PST

Aside from Ed von Hesse Fedora I see a total ignorance of German sources as well a a complete ignorance of fantastic recent research by Jörg Titze (a Saxon) about the Saxon Army, doing archival work and providing a huge amount of details and by that creating a state of the art series of books about the Saxon army, go to Amazon and type in

Jörg Titze and you will find a lot of his works.

"While the facing colors of the von Löw Infantry Regiment remained the same from 1806 to 1809, their uniform did change, most notably their pack and according to some sources their strap configuration."

In case – buy the book by Thomas Hemman : Der Krieg in Sachsen 1809 dargestellt von Geißler and Sauerweid – excellent value for money.

The numerous contemporary colour prints explain themselves, don't be afraid of the German language.

The Saxon infantry did wear in the 1806 campaing the Kittel over the uniform coat, in 1809 they didn't – however the lapels were hooked down was far a possible, moreover the waistbelt carrying the infantry sabre was carried over the shoulder, so cross belts and the hip pack of 1806 – was converted to a back pack

Excellent pictural evidence is available either on the net (Markus Stein napoleon-online.de) and publications as by Jörg Titze or Thomas Hemmann. They merit to be not ignored.

von Winterfeldt08 Mar 2017 1:27 a.m. PST

there is an excellent download available about the Saxon Army of 1792 on Gallica – with each regiment in colour

link

Regiment Prinz Gotha became von Low (and not Löw) in 1806 – facings then gras green.

As already pointed out at the reorganisation in 1810 vaccant von Low changed facings to blue

marshalGreg08 Mar 2017 6:02 a.m. PST

@vWinterfeldt
RE:Der Krieg in Sachsen 1809 dargestellt von Geißler and Sauerweid – as pointed out it appears Sauerweid presents the pre1810 army with the 1810 changes.

RE: The other source- which appears excellent-my german has deteriorated too much for me the get through to what I would need. It seems much of ths info is based on period SYW. There was many name changes and possible reforms between then and 1806. Thanks you

A strong conclusion at this point is
von Low – Light Green
Prinz Clemens – Dark Blue
von Rechten – Purple Red
for the pre1810 scheme

thanks again for all that have contributed.

MG

mollinary08 Mar 2017 11:19 a.m. PST

Von Winterfeld. I admit I was aware of Titze's work, but do not own a copy. However, I am not clear how using Fiebig's Unsterbliche Treue on flags, which, prior to 1813 matched facing colours, and Wolfgang Friedrich's "Die Uniformen der Koniglich Sachsischen Armee" in 3 volumes on uniforms, constitutes 'a total ignorance of German sources'.

Mollinary

GlacierMI08 Mar 2017 11:46 a.m. PST

well that was a rather expensive read, went ahead and ordered

Die Sächsische Armee 1810-1813, Bunde, P./Gärtner, M./Stein, M.

link

von Winterfeldt08 Mar 2017 12:16 p.m. PST

Saxon colours are a very difficult topic and a lot of hitherto established knowledge was proven not to be correct, Jörg Titze wrote several booklets on this, quite mind boggling.

I recommend to obtain

Titze, Jörg : Die Königlich Sächsische Infanterie (III)
Die Fahnen der Linien – Infanterie – Regimenter
1810 – 1815

Here you find a lot of interesting illustrations and discussion about the topic Saxon colours.

For Low, Jörg Titze comes to the conclusion that the regiment retained the light green colour.

Titze refutes the most recent theory by Dr. Kelternborn, that due to exchanging of colours – a symetrie in facing colours, as well as in colour colours was obtained. In his discussion he shows his reasons for that.

Titze also refutes that re placement colours were issued in 1813 – and most likley only regiments Clemens / Steindel (two colours) and regiment Friedrich – one colour (Leibfahne) carried those.

And in march 1814 again "new" colours were issued.

to sum up – according to Titze – regarding Bataillonsfahne

1810

König – ponceau red facings – red colour
Anton – blue facings – dark blue colour
May – yellwo facings – yellow colour
Friedrich – green facings – light green colour
Clemens – green facings – DARK BLUE colour
Rechten – yellow facings – PURPLE colour
Niesemeuchel – ponceau red facings – PURPLE colour
Low – blue facings – LIGHT GREEN colour


Also of interest

Titze, Jörg : Die kurfürstlich und königlich sächsische Infanterie (II)
Die Fahnen der Linien – Infanterie – Regimenter 1802 – 1810

Titze, Jörg : Die königlich sächsische Kavallerie (I)

Die Standarten 1807/11 – 1815

all are books on demand, good value for money and some are available as e – books as well

mollinary08 Mar 2017 12:34 p.m. PST

How does he assess Hottenroth as a source? The colour mismatch in 1810 is because the new Royal colours were ordered in 1807, but not issued to regiments until the re-organisation. Consequently the regimental colours issued matched the pre 1810 uniforms.

von Winterfeldt08 Mar 2017 11:09 p.m. PST

He discusses Hottenroth as well, in case you are interested in the complex topic of Saxon colours – I am afraid there is no way out other than to read the books by Titze

mollinary09 Mar 2017 12:00 a.m. PST

I have ordered them.

von Winterfeldt10 Mar 2017 4:58 a.m. PST

let me know what you think.

mollinary10 Mar 2017 8:08 a.m. PST

I will. Saxon flags have been an interest of mine for some years, and I have been to the Dresden Museum and been shown several of the surviving flags from this period and later. I have Hottenroth as well as Fiebig, Friedrich and Bunde, and Die Fahrenheit und Standarten der Koniglich Sachsischen Armee 1806-1914 published by the Arbeitskreises Sachsische Militargeschichte e. V, and there remain a number of uncertainties, particularly for the 1809-1814 period, which I will be interested to see Titze's take on.

Mollinary

mollinary11 Mar 2017 2:35 p.m. PST

The pamphlet on Saxon Line Infantry flags 1802-1810 arrived this morning. I must admit that, on first inspection, i am very impressed by its scholarly presenttion and meticulous citation of sources. I look forward to examining it in more detail over the next few days. Very nicely illustrated, and well worth the money to a flag nut like me!

Mollinary

von Winterfeldt11 Mar 2017 11:42 p.m. PST

thanks, go for the other two booklets as well, and then I would be very much interested about the verdict of what colours the Saxons did carry.

mollinary12 Mar 2017 11:40 a.m. PST

Curiously vW, this continues a debate we both contributed to in 2009 on TMP regarding Sxon flags, GMB and Calpe Miniatures!

Mollinary

von Winterfeldt13 Mar 2017 1:05 a.m. PST

cannot find the thread any longer, but seemingly this was before I did read the booklets by Titze, beforehand I had a lot of trust in Kelternborn

mollinary13 Mar 2017 5:15 a.m. PST

Yes, pre Titze. I confess I was not a great fan of Keltenborn. I learned of Titzes booklets in 2014, and asked a question about them on the Befreiungskriege site, but never got an answer. As this is a secondary (!) obsession of mine, I left it at that. The thread was Calpe Saxons advice wanted, Sept-Oct 2009.

Mollinary

von Winterfeldt13 Mar 2017 6:01 a.m. PST

Yes, I found the thread – good old days, all seems to be pretty sorted out about Saxon colours, but then Jörg Titze comes up …

mollinary14 Mar 2017 9:59 a.m. PST

My second booklet, on the flags 1810-1815, turned up this morning. I am equally impressed with its scholarship, and the photographs, some of which I had not seen before. He uses all the sources of which I was aware, including the existing flag at Wolkenstein, and material from the archives I have not seen. I certainly share his view that there was a mismatch in some colours in 1812, following the re-organisation. It is the Royal order naming the disbanded regiments as those whose flags were to be issued to units who had lost flags in Russia, which I found decisive, and which is included in the Annexes to Hottenroth. I still need to absorb his case for the issue of these flags and their use in 1813, and his remarks on the issue to Proviisonal Regiments. Anyway, thanks for rekindling my enthusiasm for this particular puzzle!

Mollinary

Martyn K29 Aug 2017 10:53 a.m. PST

I was just about to put my green flags on my Von Steindel (ex Clemens) and August regiments and I came across this thread. I was of the opinion that if they had taken the trouble to re-uniform the entire Clemens regiment from Blue to Green, they probably would have taken the trouble to assign a matching flag. And since neither of these regiments lost their colors in Russia, I thought that I was on safe ground.
This thread seems to throw my plans into doubt!

How accessible is the Titze book for someone that doesn't read any German at all?

Prince of Essling Supporting Member of TMP29 Aug 2017 11:56 a.m. PST

Also see
The Saxon Army 1810 – 13
Part V: Colours and Standards
By Howard Giles
link which says "Standards were not carried on campaign during 1813."

Three Armies Supporting Member of TMP29 Aug 2017 3:04 p.m. PST

I'd be more concerned about what figures you are using? I know of only one range in 28mm and I made it. Are you using the figures I sculpted for Foundry? If so you should totally disregard any info that is post 1806! Or better still wait for the new ones I will be doing for Three Armies range. ;)

18th Century Guy Supporting Member of TMP30 Aug 2017 4:15 p.m. PST

OOOhhh, Three Armies, how soon will your 1806 Saxons be available?

mollinary02 Sep 2017 1:30 p.m. PST

PE,

Sadly, Giles contains a number of errors. First he has the obverse and reverse of the infantry flags the wrong way round. Second the field of the shield bearing the monogram is white, not, the same as the background field colour of the flag. Third, his cavalry flags label both sides reverse, the obverse should be the Royal Arms. Finally, from the point of view of this thread, he accurately states that standards were not carried in 1813. But this applies to the standards of the cavalry regiments, not the colours of the infantry regiments.

Mollinary

Prince of Essling Supporting Member of TMP02 Sep 2017 2:05 p.m. PST

Molinary,
Thanks for the commentary on the Giles booklet. I will put his contribution into the proverbial waste paper basket.

Three Armies Supporting Member of TMP03 Sep 2017 4:36 a.m. PST

18th Century guy. My 1806 Saxons to accompany the Prussians are on the sculpting work sheet for January next year. I'm currently running well ahead of sculpting schedule but nearly 2 months behind with moulding, but that is being corrected. Like my facebook page for pictures as I will update on there and in TMP of course.

von Winterfeldt11 Sep 2017 1:00 a.m. PST

bear in mind, in 1806 the Saxon infantry did wear the kittel over their uniforms – it was a kind of smock made of linen to protect the white uniforms.

grenadiers did wear linen covers over their grenadier caps

18th Century Guy Supporting Member of TMP17 Oct 2017 4:07 p.m. PST

The wearing of the kittel might be historically accurate but from a gaming & figure standpoint boring. If someone made figures with the kittel I would probably use them.

I just like color on the tabletop. I know that historically on the battlefield it won't look that way but since we're gamers then I lean towards having more color on the table.

von Winterfeldt18 Oct 2017 2:26 a.m. PST

why then pick the Saxon army of 1806?
There are other armies there in coventional colourfull uniforms – I would love to see miniatures in Kittel though

Sorry - only verified members can post on the forums.