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"A Matter of Saxon ( infantry)" Topic


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1,400 hits since 7 Mar 2017
©1994-2017 Bill Armintrout
Comments or corrections?

marshalGreg07 Mar 2017 10:13 a.m. PST

I am in the process of finishing my 1806 Saxon support to my Prussian 1806 Army of Hohenlohe.

There are 3 regiments that seem to be in conflict as to their facing color.
These regiments are:
V Low
V Clemens
p. Rechtin

My source information is limited as to Philip J. Haythornthwaite et. al.

Tome V has this:

picture

with
V Low -in Green
V Clemens- in D blue
Rechtin- in D red

Many of the published sources and gamer's troop painting are inline with this scheme.

The adverse….
Plates of Alexander Sauerweid:
link
V Low -in Blue
V Clemens- in Green
Rechtin- in yellow
I have two other sources ( can't name at the moment since away from them) which are inline with this scheme.

Which is more correct?
Is there a definitive source that can make that conclusion?
Pls advise if you can.

thanks you

MG

keithbarker07 Mar 2017 10:54 a.m. PST

I have Poles & Saxons of the Napoleonic Wars which gives

von Low – Light Green
Prinz Clemens – Dark Blue
von Rechten – Purple Red

Not sure if this helps, but it seems to agree with your print!

picture

mollinary07 Mar 2017 12:21 p.m. PST

Sauerwald's plates date from after the reorganisation of the army, and the reduction in number of infantry regiments. Fiebig's book on Flags of the German armies, has, in 1806, Rechten – Crimson
Von Low – Green
Print Clemens – Dark Blue

Mollinary

marshalGreg07 Mar 2017 12:38 p.m. PST

@Mollinary,
Any idea on where to get the changes from the reorganization to understand what may have been what in 1806 until 1810?
And does that possibly mean both are correct and indicate prior was:
V Low -in Green
V Clemens- in D blue
Rechtin- in D red
then moved to in 1810 to:
V Low -in Blue
V Clemens- in Green
Rechtin- in yellow
If so… this conflicts with my 1812 sources info of Phillip H


@ Kiethbaker Is Nafziger's book have definitive source stated and as to who?
Curious

MG

mollinary07 Mar 2017 12:48 p.m. PST

Hi Marshal,

This is not really my greatest period of expertise, and it would take me a bit of time to get into it. However, a good starting point would be Calpe Miniatures site, which has a special resource on the Saxon Army of this period. A complicating factor is that after the disaster in 1812, there were further changes, and regiments ended up with flags which differed from their facing colours.

Mollinary

Ed von HesseFedora07 Mar 2017 1:00 p.m. PST

MG,

Here is a link, in German but decipherable, of the Saxon infantry in 1806:

link

Then, you can see here what was left after the reorganization in 1810.

link

Sadly, my books are in storage and I can't find better information at the moment.

mollinary07 Mar 2017 1:13 p.m. PST

Right, Just checked in Wolfgang Friedrich's books on the Saxon Army. He confirms your colours for 1806-1809, and the others, (Rechten yellow, Low blue, Clemens green) for 1810-13.

Mollinary

The Wargaming Company07 Mar 2017 1:29 p.m. PST

Greg,

When working on the plates for our Campaign Guides we found sources largely in agreement that during the early period through 1809 the von Löw Infantry Regiment was in green. Once the uniform transition was completed post-1810 the von Löw Infantry Regiment was seen in blue.

Thus, the von Löw Infantry Regiment appears differently in our 1813 Campaign Guide than it will in our recently announced 1809 Campaign Guide.

While the facing colors of the von Löw Infantry Regiment remained the same from 1806 to 1809, their uniform did change, most notably their pack and according to some sources their strap configuration.

-TWC
thewargamingcompany.com

keithbarker07 Mar 2017 2:17 p.m. PST

No there was no specific source that I could find in the Nafziger book for the uniform colours of the Saxon line infantry!

SJDonovan Inactive Member07 Mar 2017 2:29 p.m. PST

For 1806 W. J. Rawkins in 'The Royal Saxon Army 1792-1814' has Prinz Clemens in Dunkelblau (Dark  Blue); von Rechten in Karminroten  (Crimson) and von Low in Gras-­Grün (Grass Green) all with brass buttons. In the notes Rawkins says: "The colour given as crimson was a deep wine red from 1786 but certainly not the purple formerly worn by the Regiment von Thiele in 1763 as given by some modern sources."

The Rawkins guide is excellent and remarkable value for money. You can get it from: link

mollinary07 Mar 2017 2:34 p.m. PST

Looks like we are reaching a consensus!

marshalGreg07 Mar 2017 2:39 p.m. PST

Thanks all
Very interesting.
I have reconfigured my paint scheme accordingly

MG

von Winterfeldt07 Mar 2017 3:03 p.m. PST

Aside from Ed von Hesse Fedora I see a total ignorance of German sources as well a a complete ignorance of fantastic recent research by Jörg Titze (a Saxon) about the Saxon Army, doing archival work and providing a huge amount of details and by that creating a state of the art series of books about the Saxon army, go to Amazon and type in

Jörg Titze and you will find a lot of his works.

"While the facing colors of the von Löw Infantry Regiment remained the same from 1806 to 1809, their uniform did change, most notably their pack and according to some sources their strap configuration."

In case – buy the book by Thomas Hemman : Der Krieg in Sachsen 1809 dargestellt von Geißler and Sauerweid – excellent value for money.

The numerous contemporary colour prints explain themselves, don't be afraid of the German language.

The Saxon infantry did wear in the 1806 campaing the Kittel over the uniform coat, in 1809 they didn't – however the lapels were hooked down was far a possible, moreover the waistbelt carrying the infantry sabre was carried over the shoulder, so cross belts and the hip pack of 1806 – was converted to a back pack

Excellent pictural evidence is available either on the net (Markus Stein napoleon-online.de) and publications as by Jörg Titze or Thomas Hemmann. They merit to be not ignored.

von Winterfeldt08 Mar 2017 2:27 a.m. PST

there is an excellent download available about the Saxon Army of 1792 on Gallica – with each regiment in colour

link

Regiment Prinz Gotha became von Low (and not Löw) in 1806 – facings then gras green.

As already pointed out at the reorganisation in 1810 vaccant von Low changed facings to blue

marshalGreg08 Mar 2017 7:02 a.m. PST

@vWinterfeldt
RE:Der Krieg in Sachsen 1809 dargestellt von Geißler and Sauerweid – as pointed out it appears Sauerweid presents the pre1810 army with the 1810 changes.

RE: The other source- which appears excellent-my german has deteriorated too much for me the get through to what I would need. It seems much of ths info is based on period SYW. There was many name changes and possible reforms between then and 1806. Thanks you

A strong conclusion at this point is
von Low – Light Green
Prinz Clemens – Dark Blue
von Rechten – Purple Red
for the pre1810 scheme

thanks again for all that have contributed.

MG

mollinary08 Mar 2017 12:19 p.m. PST

Von Winterfeld. I admit I was aware of Titze's work, but do not own a copy. However, I am not clear how using Fiebig's Unsterbliche Treue on flags, which, prior to 1813 matched facing colours, and Wolfgang Friedrich's "Die Uniformen der Koniglich Sachsischen Armee" in 3 volumes on uniforms, constitutes 'a total ignorance of German sources'.

Mollinary

GlacierMI08 Mar 2017 12:46 p.m. PST

well that was a rather expensive read, went ahead and ordered

Die Sächsische Armee 1810-1813, Bunde, P./Gärtner, M./Stein, M.

link

von Winterfeldt08 Mar 2017 1:16 p.m. PST

Saxon colours are a very difficult topic and a lot of hitherto established knowledge was proven not to be correct, Jörg Titze wrote several booklets on this, quite mind boggling.

I recommend to obtain

Titze, Jörg : Die Königlich Sächsische Infanterie (III)
Die Fahnen der Linien – Infanterie – Regimenter
1810 – 1815

Here you find a lot of interesting illustrations and discussion about the topic Saxon colours.

For Low, Jörg Titze comes to the conclusion that the regiment retained the light green colour.

Titze refutes the most recent theory by Dr. Kelternborn, that due to exchanging of colours – a symetrie in facing colours, as well as in colour colours was obtained. In his discussion he shows his reasons for that.

Titze also refutes that re placement colours were issued in 1813 – and most likley only regiments Clemens / Steindel (two colours) and regiment Friedrich – one colour (Leibfahne) carried those.

And in march 1814 again "new" colours were issued.

to sum up – according to Titze – regarding Bataillonsfahne

1810

König – ponceau red facings – red colour
Anton – blue facings – dark blue colour
May – yellwo facings – yellow colour
Friedrich – green facings – light green colour
Clemens – green facings – DARK BLUE colour
Rechten – yellow facings – PURPLE colour
Niesemeuchel – ponceau red facings – PURPLE colour
Low – blue facings – LIGHT GREEN colour


Also of interest

Titze, Jörg : Die kurfürstlich und königlich sächsische Infanterie (II)
Die Fahnen der Linien – Infanterie – Regimenter 1802 – 1810

Titze, Jörg : Die königlich sächsische Kavallerie (I)

Die Standarten 1807/11 – 1815

all are books on demand, good value for money and some are available as e – books as well

mollinary08 Mar 2017 1:34 p.m. PST

How does he assess Hottenroth as a source? The colour mismatch in 1810 is because the new Royal colours were ordered in 1807, but not issued to regiments until the re-organisation. Consequently the regimental colours issued matched the pre 1810 uniforms.

von Winterfeldt09 Mar 2017 12:09 a.m. PST

He discusses Hottenroth as well, in case you are interested in the complex topic of Saxon colours – I am afraid there is no way out other than to read the books by Titze

mollinary09 Mar 2017 1:00 a.m. PST

I have ordered them.

von Winterfeldt10 Mar 2017 5:58 a.m. PST

let me know what you think.

mollinary10 Mar 2017 9:08 a.m. PST

I will. Saxon flags have been an interest of mine for some years, and I have been to the Dresden Museum and been shown several of the surviving flags from this period and later. I have Hottenroth as well as Fiebig, Friedrich and Bunde, and Die Fahrenheit und Standarten der Koniglich Sachsischen Armee 1806-1914 published by the Arbeitskreises Sachsische Militargeschichte e. V, and there remain a number of uncertainties, particularly for the 1809-1814 period, which I will be interested to see Titze's take on.

Mollinary

mollinary11 Mar 2017 3:35 p.m. PST

The pamphlet on Saxon Line Infantry flags 1802-1810 arrived this morning. I must admit that, on first inspection, i am very impressed by its scholarly presenttion and meticulous citation of sources. I look forward to examining it in more detail over the next few days. Very nicely illustrated, and well worth the money to a flag nut like me!

Mollinary

von Winterfeldt12 Mar 2017 12:42 a.m. PST

thanks, go for the other two booklets as well, and then I would be very much interested about the verdict of what colours the Saxons did carry.

mollinary12 Mar 2017 12:40 p.m. PST

Curiously vW, this continues a debate we both contributed to in 2009 on TMP regarding Sxon flags, GMB and Calpe Miniatures!

Mollinary

von Winterfeldt13 Mar 2017 2:05 a.m. PST

cannot find the thread any longer, but seemingly this was before I did read the booklets by Titze, beforehand I had a lot of trust in Kelternborn

mollinary13 Mar 2017 6:15 a.m. PST

Yes, pre Titze. I confess I was not a great fan of Keltenborn. I learned of Titzes booklets in 2014, and asked a question about them on the Befreiungskriege site, but never got an answer. As this is a secondary (!) obsession of mine, I left it at that. The thread was Calpe Saxons advice wanted, Sept-Oct 2009.

Mollinary

von Winterfeldt13 Mar 2017 7:01 a.m. PST

Yes, I found the thread – good old days, all seems to be pretty sorted out about Saxon colours, but then Jörg Titze comes up …

mollinary14 Mar 2017 10:59 a.m. PST

My second booklet, on the flags 1810-1815, turned up this morning. I am equally impressed with its scholarship, and the photographs, some of which I had not seen before. He uses all the sources of which I was aware, including the existing flag at Wolkenstein, and material from the archives I have not seen. I certainly share his view that there was a mismatch in some colours in 1812, following the re-organisation. It is the Royal order naming the disbanded regiments as those whose flags were to be issued to units who had lost flags in Russia, which I found decisive, and which is included in the Annexes to Hottenroth. I still need to absorb his case for the issue of these flags and their use in 1813, and his remarks on the issue to Proviisonal Regiments. Anyway, thanks for rekindling my enthusiasm for this particular puzzle!

Mollinary

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