"Getting into 28mm Medieval need advice/help" Topic

I just bought a 28mm French Medieval Army and I'll be needing some help as to how to proceed.

The Army comes with over 200 figures about half painted and it breaks down to:

44 Knights painted(these are foot knights)
124 man at arms and crossbowmen(45 are painted.
4 teams of Hand Gunners each of 2 men
22 Cavalry(18 painted)
32 on sprue medieval mercenaries and 20 Knights on sprue.

First off will I need to add anything to this Army like Mounted Knights for example?

Also what rules would be good to get?

And anything else that you can come up with would be helpful.

Thanks
Michael

Prolly need more info.

I like ADLG if you are interested in big battles and have folks nearby. It's pretty clean.

Since you mentioned medieval mercenaries on sprues, I'm guessing these are Perry plastics so late medieval? The painted ones are in something other than white armor, hence French? Knights in white armor could be anything really.

But, if it is late medieval, and the core of it are French troops, you could probably finish it out as late 100YW French, or French Ordonnance and have interesting armies for ADLG. You wouldn't have to have mounted men-at-arms, but some would be pretty standard for such armies.

Yes the figures(at least part of them)are Perry and the painted ones are in Red and Blue or combos of those colors and some other colors as well.

Until I get the figures I can only tell you what I see in the pictures.

If you email me at yamamoto87@hotmail.com I can send you the pictures so you can see what I have.

Michael

Start with rules. Until you know what you're playing there's no way to know what you have/need. Lion Rampant uses units of 6 or 12, for example.

THEN finish painting what you have.

THEN start buying. Otherwise odds are you'll just end up with a half-painted project you can't game with…

That mix would work very well with our French HYW army list. Ignore the "German" parts. Ignore the "feudal infantry" except in cases where the locals are mustered, e.g. Lord of Agincourt at Agincourt. (the asterisk * denotes troops that, if they rout, do not cause a morale check on non * troops)

German and French Armies 1300 A. D. to 1460 A. D.

Up to 40% cavalry:
up to 50% light and medium cavalry; lance and sword. Morale: 00-29=D, 30-89=C, 90-99=B
up to 70% heavy cavalry; lance and sword. Morale:00-19=D, 20-69=C, 70-99=B;REQUIRED UNIT
up to 20% cataphract cavalry; as above

Up to 50% mercenaries:
up to 100% from any list taken from the "High Medieval Mercenary Armies, The Condottieri 1300 A. D. to 1460 A. D." in this appendix, that are allowed to French and German armies; note the special mercenary morale rules that attach with these units
up to 50% from Scots Armies, 1350 A. D. to 1513 A. D.; French only

*Up to 85% feudal infantry:
up to 60% unarmored infantry; levy with assorted melee weapons, and up to 1/4 with bow 1 or sling. Morale class D
up to 10% unarmored infantry; bow 2 and sword. Morale: 00-69=D, 70-99=C
up to 10% light infantry; crossbow 2 or 3 (1/4 crossbow 3) and sword. Morale: 00-59=D, 60-89=C, 90-99=B
up to 30% light infantry; spear and sword; morale as above
up to 20% medium infantry; as above
up to 10% heavy infantry; as above

Organization:
Infantry: 20mm by 20mm bases; units of 8-10 bases; may mix weights but not types.
Cavalry: 25mm by 40mm bases; units of 10 or more bases; may mix weights.
Note: while units are purchased in 8-10 bases, this is for purchase only. Armies must group into three or fewer battalions of infantry, and three or fewer battalions of cavalry. The minimum size allowed for a battalion (battle) is one purchased unit (i.e. 500 men). All such purchased units grouped into a battle will be considered as a single tactical unit for command control, cohesion, casualties and morale checks. As it is possible to have different morale ratings within a given battle, it is possible that a single morale / performance check for the battle will see some units make, while some fail, the check. Note: mercenary units are not restricted to this rule limiting the army to a maximum of three battles of cavalry and infantry; mercenary units organized according to their own army list.

Tactics:
Feudal infantry: open and close order, column, wedge, square, pivot (open order bow and crossbow only), open order missile fire, phalanx (feudal spear only). Mercenaries use their own tactics.

Cavalry: open and close order, column, wheel, pivot, charge (German only), western charge (French only), withdraw post combat (German only). Mercenaries use their own tactics.
Dismounted cavalry: open and close order, column, wedge, square, wheel, phalanx (+25% versus cavalry, rank bonus, does not check to receive). Mercenaries use their own tactics.

Lion Rampant is a good rule set to start with.

4 teams of Hand Gunners each of 2 men

This sounds suspiciously like the figures could be from the Perry Agincourt to Orleans (1415-1429) range, though without seeing pictures it would be hard to say.

If that is the case, then with the figures listed one could even split them into two opposing forces of Armagnacs and Burgundians for example.

On practical note, are the figures based in some fashion, and are you planning to rebase them?

Griefbringer all the painted figures(107)have been based the foot figures are on 1 inch round bases and the Cavalry are on rectangular bases but can't tell the length.

As for rebasing them I'm not sure at this time since the figures will be sent today from the UK.

Until I get the figures I can say too much but if you wish please email me and I can send pictures so you can see what they look like.

As for rules I did pick up Lion Rampant awhile back so I can start with those.

But after I get the figures and determined which set of rules to use then there's the question of finding an opponent to fight against.

Once I have the figures one question will be what else do I need for example more Mounted Knights or other types of Foot Troops.

I also have some Osprey books on this period including Agincourt and Crecy(Campaign Series) so are there any good reference books that I might need besides what I already have?

I'll keep you updated.

Michael

If you are planning on playing Lion Rampant, then the individual mounting on round bases is probably a good starting point. And they could be combined with sabot bases for mass combat games, though that might look a bit sparse.

If the figures are plastics from the Perry Agincourt to Orleans range, then you might want to wait a bit before investing in further cavalry – Perrys have suggested before that they want to do those in plastic also.

Notice on terminology: men-at-arms in 15th century actually refers to a combatant in full plate, whether knights (which is a social status, rather than military) or not. And they could fight mounted or on foot as they (or their commanders) preferred. So if you have some villains in gambeson with pointy sticks, they are not actually men-at-arms.

As for the combination of blue and red, that tended to be associated with the Paris militia, which tended to fight for whichever side at a particular time was in control of that city – in the early half of 15th century this included at various times Burgundian and Armagnac factions as well as the English.

Captain, if I was going to recommend one book from this period it would be Jonathan Sumptions four volumes on the Hundred Years War. If you want a clear eyed understanding of the period, he is the one. If that seems a little much, just read volume 4 "Cursed Kings" which covers the reigns of Henry IV and V and the civil war in France. You'll understand why there was no way the French were going to win at Agincourt.

Griefbringer makes a good point about men-at-arms and you won't go wrong with Sumption – he's sometimes a bit weak on military practice/detail but it's good to have a solid overview and narrative.

Sumption great but a big plow.

Start with Clifford Rogers: War Cruel and Sharp
Anne Curry: Agincourt a New History
Juliet Baker: Conquest

Also give Frossiart a try – a fun introduction to source material.

Re what to do with the figures:

First welcome to medieval gaming in 28mm – I highly recommend it!

But rules before basing – since most rule sets have different requirements.

In general through you can go two directions: DBX standard:
60mm wide 20-30mm deep for foot, 40-50mm deep for mounted. Multi figures on a base (2-4).

OR

Individual basing. Here I recommend 20X20mm squares (magnet bases come in this size). The advantage to this scheme is that you can put 3 figures o a 60mmm wide base and so convert to "mass" mounting at your convience. Round bases won't rank up and so are skirmish only.

I of course strongly recommend A Game of Fire and Ice for medeival gaming (and DBA 3.0) but I'm also prejudiced…

Thomas J. Thomas
Fame and Glory Games

So overall how many sets of Medieval rules are out there and what are they(besides the ones listed here)?

So overall how many sets of Medieval rules are out there and what are they(besides the ones listed here)?

The revised TMP rules directory lists over 200 entries for medieval:

TMP link

Thomas makes excellent reading recommendations; you might want to check out Michael Prestwich as well…De Vries is popular but a bit shaky.
Rules? There's loads of them, but if you find something good, do let us know.

Griefbringer I'll go thru the list and then if I find any the next step is how much the rules are.

So this'll keep me busy for awhile.

And uglyfatbloke if I do indeed come across a good set of rules I'll let you know.

At least with Napoleonics the choice of rules was much less when I was doing it back in the 80's.

I have a question about Mounted Knights now I know that Perry makes mounted men at arms but does Perry make Knights in full armour?

I know they make a box of Knights but they're from 1450 to 1500 but do they make Armoured Knights for around 1415?

I may not have seen everything that Perry makes so let me know if they do.

The advice to start with Rules is very important. The Rules will dictate both basing and size of unit. Some rules are more flexible than others about this.

Some people are recommending the latest trendy rules. Personally, I know not a single person (after 45 years gaming) who plays any of the sets recommended above. If you are in a club, find what THEY play for Medievals, and work round that. If not, you need to make some decisions.

- skirmish or big battle? (The troops you have bought are aimed at big battle). Skirmish usually requires figures to be based singly. Big battle usually has them on stands. I play with Field of Glory rules. These give 3 figures to a stand. I double up heavy foot to 'elements' of 6 figures together. I could play 'Hail Caesar' with the same basing. Perry figures are sold with bases that may or may not coincide with the rules you choose.

- fast play or detailed play?

- very historical or very popular? (the 2 do NOT usually go together!)

- used on competitions or not?

Captain…knights are men-at-arms.

uglyfatbloke are there any differences between Knights and men-at-arms or am I missing something?

The reason I ask is simple I've seen movies where you have Knights in full armour from head to toe but then I've seen movies where sometimes the person who's mounted might not have as much armour on so what's why I ask.

Beaumap our group is rather small but it's been around(in one form or another)since the late 80's early 90's and I think I'm the only one who'll have Medieval figures.

I have another set of rules besides Lion Ramphant which is called Revenge by Emperor's Press which I forgot I had but I'll try that and get back to you.

But there's one thing for certain is that sooner or later I'm going to have to get some English for my French to fight.

The main question for the minis is wether you do have an army for the early 15th century (as in Azincourt) or the later plastics – as in War of the Rose, War of the Public Weal and the various conflicts of Burgund.

If the latter (which the plastic handgunners indicate) then you can use the two Perry mounted sets for almost anything from fully plated men at arms to scouts – from English over French and Burgundian to German.

The main question for YOU is wether you want to play skirmish (as in single based) or battles (as in based units). From there you can plan your army.

BTW: For battles&armies: Several rulesets do have army books that give you a good account on unit types, contemporary armies and their composition that can be usefull regardless of the main ruleset. "Storm of Arrows" from FOG should be available on cheap (if you can get it used) and would be for the later half of the 15th century – though the "German armies" in that are a major disappointment – probably a capitulation before the complexity of their variations. Anyway, overall its a pretty good start (just imho). Another good seperate work (though less complete and a tad more expensive, but still available) would be the Impetus Addon for European armies of the 15th century.

Unit types: there is not such thing on a battlefield, if you are wondering about standard sizes. All troops are arranged into "battles", which can vary in size from a couple of hundred to a couple of thousand and on-up. In a skirmish game "units" are flexible to the max. A leader and some men, even mixed arms.

Men-at-arms are all like-armed lumped together. Social status notwithstanding, a commoner could be as well armed as the richest nobleman. On the battlefield you could not tell the difference in equipment. A nobleman, of course, would have a family coat of arms by this late period: a commoner would be breaking any number of laws by assuming a coat of arms. He could adopt a sigil of some kind, so long as it wasn't being touted as an established family crest. So if you want to visually represent "knights" from common MAAs, put heraldry on the knights and some simple "livery" on the MAAs who are not knights. An individual mercenary MAA would likely be as plain Jane as can be, since any sort of expensive panoply would be, well, expensive.

This continual harping on having to decide "big battle or skirmish" is unnecessary. If you keep all of your figures on separate bases, and resort to movement bases or trays for big battles, then you can have both with the same figures………….

Great War Ace as I mentioned when I started this topic the French Army has 250 or so figures and 107 are painted and based and I think the bases are 1 inch bases.

Now you mentioned movement bases or trays well it so happens that I still have 31 of the LOTR movement trays which can hold 8 figures so I have these and also 12 of the Cavalry trays each of these holds 2 Cavalry.

So I think for right now having each figure based might be the way to go.

Captain, roughly speaking all knights (and barons, earls, dukes and kings) are men-at-arms, but hardly any men-at-arms are knights etc.

Well I was able to find a fellow who's selling me 120 painted English Medieval figures.

So now I have an opponent to fight my French.

When I have a list I'll post it here.

Michael

I know that Perry makes mounted men at arms but does Perry make Knights in full armour?

I know they make a box of Knights but they're from 1450 to 1500 but do they make Armoured Knights for around 1415?

As to actual products, the cavalry that Perrys have in their Agincourt to Orleans (1415-1429) range is in metal, and contains both men-at-arms in full plate armour (codes AO9-AO12, AO15, AO18) and more lightly armoured sergeants (AO28-30).

If you are looking for plastic cavalry, they do not have currently any in this range, though they have previously expressed an interest to do so – but no sculpts for such have been shown so far.

As for knight, as previously mentioned in 15th century that is a social status, not a unit type.

Griefbringer in my French Army I'm getting a small number of Cavalry but until I get them I won't which Cavalry they are so I'll have to wait.

I remember watching the movie Henry V which shows the French Knights making their charge at the English and it looked like almost everyone on horseback in the charge had armour from head to toe and that's how I envision the knight.

Maybe Perry will make plastic cavalry at some point we'll just have to wait.

One other thing can someone tell me exactly what troop types there are in the Medieval period?

I'm familier with some but not all.

Yup; a man-at-arms would be armoured head to foot…when medieval writes mention 'armed men' that's what they mean..'homines ad arma'. Lightly armoured cavalry do recce (recon), raiding, requisitioning (stealing), guarding convoys and frightening the populace. In a general engagement they're going to be on foot much more often that not.

My French Army has arrived and I must tell you I'm very pleased with the figures.

The paint jobs are really great and I don't have as much to paint as I thought,I need to make some repairs but it's a very small number.

And now the English are next to get and that should.nt too long.

Michael

Whichever ruleset you choose, stay away from Revenge… It's a good read but very old-school in its approach, and you'll be wading through many lesser details forever.

Try something playable first.

Lion Rampant is very nice introduction to the era. You basically build a retinue of a noble, with his relatives/friends or mercenaries classed as men-at-arms and then his household troops (serjeants) and some levy/mercenary foot troops (yeomen). As the usual 24-points retinue rarely requies more than 48 miniatures, you can paint them up and game with them in no time, see how various units behave on battlefield and get the general feel of the period.

And then, should you fancy bigger engagement, you can use the very same miniatures as one of the commands/wards of a bigger army and use them with different ruleset, of which there are plenty. I personally prefer so-called "streamlined" rulesets, like Hail Caesar! or Basic Impetus, and both can use single-based figures grouped on movenemt trays.

One other thing can someone tell me exactly what troop types there are in the Medieval period?

Depends a lot on time and place – after all things tended to change a bit over a thousand years. And the medieval people did not always manage to organise everything into neat categories.

But assuming that you are mainly interested in Western Europe during the 15th century, the following might provide a starting point.

* Men-at-arms / gendarmes (heavy cavalry): mounted men in full plate armour, capable of fighting mounted with heavy lances, or dismounting as needed (often armed with a hefty two-handed weapon or cut-down lance when dismounted).

* Sergeants / coustiliers / scurrers etc. (medium cavalry): partially armoured mounted men typically armed with lighter lances / spears. May be found supporting men-at-arms in the rear ranks, or dismounting to fight with their pointy sticks, or on patrolling/scouting missions.

* Missile-armed cavalry: relatively rare in the Western Europe, where cavalry tactics typically focused on close combat. However, mounted crossbowmen were found in German, Swiss and Italian forces, and javelin-armed ginetes in Spain. Further to the east mounted archers were common in Hungary, Balkans, Ottoman empire etc. and could be sometimes encountered in small number as mercenaries in western lands.

* Missile infantry: depending on time and place, these could be archers, crossbowmen, handgunners or mixture of all three. While handguns were in limited use at the beginning of 15th century, they became more and more popular as the century progressed. Missile infantry was sometimes mounted on riding horses as mounted infantry; this would allow them to move faster on march, but before a battle they would still dismount and fight on foot. The amount of armour could vary, though pavises (large shields) were occasionally fielded as extra defense against enemy missile fire.

* Melee infantry: typically armed with spears or a variety of two-handed polearms (halberds, bills, glaives, guisarmes etc.) with heavy blade and various pointy bits. Pikes became particularly popular in Switzerland and Low Countries, and later on also in other places. Sword was common sidearm for all infantry, but usually not the only armament on pitched battle (though dedicated swordsmen could be found sometimes, for example in Italy). Due to focus on two-handed weapons (for reach and/or armour penetration), shields were less common than in the previous century, though small bucklers could be carried (also by missile troops) for those occasions when one would need to resort to wielding sword.

* Artillery: heavy artillery was an important part of sieges already in the beginning of the century, and cities also had guns of their own to mount on walls for defense. Actual field artillery was in relative infancy at the beginning of the century, but started to become more common as gun and carriage designs improved. Particularly interesting design is ribaldequin or organ gun, mounting numerous small guns side by side.

Griefbringer has pretty much covered the matter for you Captain. Lighter horsemen seldom appear on the battlefield as cavalry for most places and most of the period but it's variable….other than in Scotland/England where it's just plain not the case…. to Spain where (or so I'm led understand; it's outwith my period/arena) it's not unknown.
Lion Rampant is a sort-of-medieval-themed game. The writer (to his great credit) is absolutely clear about that. For Robin Hood and Braveheart it's great – I've played it in the past and will doubtless do so again – but it's not a medieval game, it's just got medieval words in it…not always rationally.

Okay here's a question for all of you regarding rules which is I'd like the top 3 choices for Medieval rulesets.

Or maybe put it in another way which ruleset best works for you?

Michael

If you find something that is suitable for war in Christendom 1250-1400 let us know! I've only tried a coupe of dozen but they've all been pretty dreadful.

Every time this question comes up, I plug our own. The Art of War.

I've been playing them essentially unaltered for c. forty years.

If you find something that is suitable for war in Christendom 1250-1400 let us know! I've only tried a coupe of dozen but they've all been pretty dreadful.

Well, after statement such as this I'm afraid to suggest any game system I know… ;)

It does depend on what you want from a game. Do you want a game with a medieval theme or one that reflects medieval war?

A game with a flavour (even if it's just in the names) is fine with me. I cannot imagine a wargame that will reflect anything and still being playable in an hour or two. There's just too much to it if you go into intricacies of realism. And that is assuming we do have unquestionable understanding of how things worked 600 years ago. And I think there are countless threads here on TMP dealing with "game vs simulation" and "gamey vs realistic" topics.

Add to that the fact that I am a fan and a proponent of top-down design of games that proclaim to be a "big battle games" – this in itself means that I don't want to decide if my troops will be equipped with shord swords, regular swords or longswords (and that is something one would need to deal with when playing aforementioned Revenge rules). I just want my units to behave in different ways that seem plausible to me, with a pinch of "rock-paper-scissors" balance thrown in. And as long as my troops in "medieval" game behave differently from my troops in "napoleonic" game – I'm a happy gamer.

uglyfatbloke that's an interesting question.

For myself whenever I do an historical game I want it to be as historical or correct as possible and also have fun as well.

Also it would be nice to try and change history with a different result.

For example I played in a Waterloo game where the French won or I played in a Yellow Sea game where the Russian's beat the crap out of the Japanese.

But the bottom line for me is that when I play a game I want to make sure that I'm on the winning side and have fun doing it.

Well, good Captain, maybe you might want to give some examples of rules that you enjoy for other periods – as well as telling what you particularly enjoy in them.

And on the other note, have you figured out what sort of cavalry you got as part of your purchase?

Yes all round… Complexity is not a guide to validity or playability.

Griefbringer with regards to rules here's some periods that I've done and still doing:

Samurai
Killer Katanas(easy to understand and gamable)

Napoleonics
Empire III and IV(interesting but very hard to learn)
Vive le Emperor(nice set but still difficult)
Battles for Empires(liked it a lot but had holes)

Naval(Pre-Dreadnought,WW I and WWII,Napoleonic Sail)
74(homemade rules and pretty fun)
Fire when Ready(interesting but somewhat difficult)
Quickfire(like the rules a lot and easy to learn)
General Quarters 1,2 and 3(first 2 were pretty fun and 3 is good but for me hard to learn)

With the exception of Pre-Dreadnought and WW II Naval everything else above(for various reasons)I'm not into anymore.

Now with regard to the French Cavalry mostly it's Men at Arms and 3 Mounted personality's(all Counts)and the ones still on sprues are Knights and Lt Cavalry.

And after seeing what French I do have I think I'll need to get a little bit more of certain things to flesh them out.

But I got the English coming soon(120 of them)and they're all Foot Troops and Command.

Michael

Re Rules:

You can have playability and decent simulation value – it just takes a lot of thought by the game designer.

Most of the DBX games will produce a good simulation of medieval warfare at a reasonable complexity level. I naturely prefer A Game of Fire and Ice – tailored to medeival period with more flavor than most DBX games. (Beware of DBA 2.2 & DBM 3.0).

Complexity does not bear a direct relationship to realism and is generally just a product of a poor design. A game should be as simple ass possible but no simplier.

Thomas J. Thomas
Fame and Glory Games

After looking at my mounted French I came to realize that I am in need of Lances and some spears.

So can someone point me to where I can extra Lances and Spears?

Michael

You can always make them from brass wire. Flatten the end and file to a point. Piano wire works well too, but is harder to work with, and will definitely impale you if the lances/spears/pikes are upright.

Another material is a paper clip. The not quite round appearance, plus the straightened quality, lends a definitely unmachined look to the shafts………

To get some idea about which rules are popular, if you look in the rules directory linked to above, you can search by rating. If you just look at the games with 6+ stars, and also look at how many ratings they have, you can narrow your search down to just a few rulesets. You can then look for more details and reviews to see if they might appeal to you.

Regarding basing, if you base them individually then you can play skirmish games and use movement trays or sabot bases if you want to play a big battle game. The Lotr bases for your infantry would work well. However I wouldn't base your cavalry on the round lotr bases as they will not allow you to line them up in close order. Personally I use pill shaped bases (like oval with flat sides) for cavalry with sabot bases for unit based games.

I think I've decided on basing for my French and the English.

Almost all the painted figures are individual the French have round bases and the English(mostly) have square bases.

So since many of the bases are painted/flocked(and I don't wish to ruin them) I've decided to have them on individual bases.

One other question I thought of was this in most(if not all)of the rules how many figures are there within a unit?

To give 2 examples in Empire a Unit/Regt of Hussars is 12-16 figures with a scale of 60 to 1(1 figure equals 60 men)or in Pike and Shotte a Foot Regt of Infrantry is 40 figures(12-Pike,24-Musket and 4 Command.

One thing I don't think I mentioned was colors.

Now in looking thru my French some colors are easy like Red,Green,Blue etc but can you help out with other colors that the French used as there are some colors that I can't identify.

Colors were basic. Subtle dyes were expensive, so individual MAAs could sport a variety. Nothing was super bright, though; there was nothing like "colorfast"! Everything faded, usually quite rapidly.

A variety of shades within a unit will always look authentic, for instance: instead of just "red", go for faded red, "new" deep red, and shades in between. I am sure that faded colors were the norm, since people didn't get a change of new clothes that often. And dyes were easily damaged by the weather. Bleeding of colors would produce interesting, and I am sure undesirable, effects. But only the rich might "recycle" such clothing items. Ordinary people would wear their damaged clothing until it wore out.