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"Argentina seeks migration ban..." Topic


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1,390 hits since 22 Feb 2017
©1994-2017 Bill Armintrout
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Gwydion22 Feb 2017 3:04 a.m. PST

'… and border wall proposals in immigration row.
President Mauricio Macri triggers backlash from Bolivia after banning entry for foreign citizens with criminal convictions – as legislator proposes border wall.

Argentinian president Mauricio Macri has triggered a diplomatic spat with neighbours after signing an order to rein in migration.

Amid a racially charged national debate on immigration, a former real estate tycoon-turned-president signs an executive order to stop some foreign migrants entering his country and to deport foreign residents with criminal records.

There is even talk of building a border wall, while intemperate language prompts a backlash from a neighbouring country.

But this is not Donald Trump's America and the wall is not intended to exclude Mexicans.

At the other end of the Americas, Argentina's millionaire president Mauricio Macri triggered a diplomatic spat with regional neighbours this week after he signed a controversial order to rein in migration….'

link

Looks like Argentina's neighbours don't like being called names.

GarrisonMiniatures Supporting Member of TMP22 Feb 2017 3:40 a.m. PST

So exactly how could Argentina afford to build a wall…

Giles the Zog22 Feb 2017 4:24 a.m. PST

So exactly how could Argentina afford to build a wall…

They'll make the Bolivians pay for it.
A well known, tried and tested business model as everyone knows. ;->

ITALWARS22 Feb 2017 4:40 a.m. PST

what's wrong with that???…Ancestors of Argentina majority population is made of people from many countries who worked hard for various generation to build a modern nation..including the family of President Macri..his father a very poor imigrant from Southern Italy..maybe is the only modern Nation in Latin America..why should everything they build with great sacrifices be put at risk or spoiled, as we all see, not by other willing workers but by potential parasites and spongers..in many cases also with a criminal background?

Irish Marine Supporting Member of TMP22 Feb 2017 6:15 a.m. PST

Yup totally agree.

alien BLOODY HELL surfer Supporting Member of TMP22 Feb 2017 6:25 a.m. PST

Weren't a lot of immigrants into Argentina around 1945 ish of, shall we say, a criminal background? I think they were welcomed quite warmly and did pretty well there.

Personal logo ochoin Supporting Member of TMP22 Feb 2017 6:44 a.m. PST

Certainly, any country should have the right to reject would-be immigrants with records of major crimes.

One wonders, though, if such measures start to slide into racism as "criminality" is used as an excuse.

A study of history shows even such "melting pots" as the US could be discriminatory in its past.

The Irish, for example, were a target in the C19th.

Even after entering the country, the Irish faced much prejudice, racism and discrimination in the United States because they were poor, uneducated, less skilled, considered disruptive and were Catholics in a land of Protestant dominance.

I can imagine a putative modern leader rejecting the Irish as "criminals".

Personal logo ochoin Supporting Member of TMP22 Feb 2017 6:52 a.m. PST

@ Alien

You refer to the 1500 or so Nazi War criminals who fled to South America after the war?

Interestingly, few, if any, Italian war criminals tried, even though they could melt more easily into the population.

Most Italian war criminals were guilty of crimes against other Italians and were mostly caught by partisans at the end of the war. Like Mussolini himself, their fates were bloody even if well deserved.

Some remained protected by Americans who used them as a tool to fight the rising communism in Italy. I don't know of any who fled to South America. The war criminals for the war with Ethiopia were completely forgotten.

Equally AFAIK no Japanese war criminals ended up in Argentina.

Sobieski22 Feb 2017 6:59 a.m. PST

Not sure why this is one this site.

Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian22 Feb 2017 7:52 a.m. PST

Would be an interesting scenario, leading to war between Argentina and Bolivia? Some interesting equipment.

Rhysius Cambrensis Supporting Member of TMP22 Feb 2017 8:29 a.m. PST

I don't think interesting is the correct term for a potential war between south American countries. I think that is a rather crass and unfortunate statement and a direct breach of forum rules.

Argentina can afford to build a wall in the same way Russia, a bankrupt nation to all intents and purposes, can afford to fight proxy wars (Ukraine) and officially directly support war in Syria with military action as well as military supplies.

As usual, the working people and military personnel will be the ones to suffer. I find the blaze attitude of the Editor in Chief astounding.

miniMo Supporting Member of TMP22 Feb 2017 8:37 a.m. PST

Fortunately for gaming purposes, the scale models will be easier to assemble than the IKEA Börder Wåll which may prove popular around the globe. Also useful for Zombie and other post-Apoc gaming.

Powermonger22 Feb 2017 9:30 a.m. PST

I´m from Argentina.
That wall thing is non-sense. We are in the middle of a great economic crisis. We have deficit and needs in so many basic things such as education, internal security, health, retirement pensions, etc.that thinking in that is totally non-sense.
Besides that, segregating people from other nations is just wrong. Ok with entry denial to criminals, but to common, hard working people??? not at all.
And not, argentina is not the most modern country in South America. Brazil, Chile & Uruguay all have better fundamentals and metrics than Argentina. That statement is from 100 years ago. We are spiraling down since 1950, and i see no bottom.

Tango01 Supporting Member of TMP22 Feb 2017 11:45 a.m. PST

Ha!Ha!Ha!… what a nonsense… a wall?… how??… with what money?… we barely can paid salaries… mon Dieu!… and a wall with Bolivia?… we have part of our territory that we only could access there traveling throug Bolivian soil (Tarija)…

The real problem is that in the last years so many criminals come here and began with their drug business that now we can stop them…

Also… there was a famous case of a local young teen of 14 years old who was murdered by a Peruvian thief of the same age who could walk to his country without problem… this young criminal has a heavy list of Bad criminal records … also his mother and father … and they have no problem to "work" here….


Amicalement
Armand

Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian22 Feb 2017 11:59 a.m. PST

I don't think interesting is the correct term for a potential war between south American countries. I think that is a rather crass and unfortunate statement and a direct breach of forum rules.

Wargamers often use what-if scenarios.

attilathepun4722 Feb 2017 12:00 p.m. PST

All this talk of how Argentina can't afford to build a wall is ridiculous! All they have to do is hire a bunch of illegal immigrants at starvation wages to build it on the cheap--but wait?! Oops.

VCarter Supporting Member of TMP22 Feb 2017 1:50 p.m. PST

Nope you grab the illegals wherever you find them, ship them to the border, and tell them to get to work on the wall while waiting deportation.

Personal logo ochoin Supporting Member of TMP22 Feb 2017 2:08 p.m. PST

you grab the illegals wherever you find them, ship them to the border, and tell them to get to work on the wall while waiting deportation.

Won't work. I've seen episodes of 'Hogan's Heroes'.


picture

and 'The Great Escape'

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The Good Guys always outwit the Bad.

Rhysius Cambrensis Supporting Member of TMP22 Feb 2017 2:17 p.m. PST

"Wargamers often use what-if scenarios"

Yes, in relation to historical events that did, or did not, happen or, events far in the future i.e. sci-fi.

However it is not appropriate and demonstrates an appalling attitude to wish war on two nations in the here and now simply for your wargaming pleasure. Damn bad taste!

Irish Marine Supporting Member of TMP22 Feb 2017 2:40 p.m. PST

Really!? Then why Wargame. Isn't the premise behind Cold War gaming like Team Yankee or any given scenario that might be playing out world wide.

Rhysius Cambrensis Supporting Member of TMP22 Feb 2017 3:41 p.m. PST

Team Yankee is set in the past, please read previous thread to avoid ignorant replies.

ITALWARS22 Feb 2017 4:22 p.m. PST

"Argentina can afford to build a wall in the same way Russia, a bankrupt nation to all intents and purposes, can afford to fight proxy wars (Ukraine) and officially directly support war in Syria with military action as well as military supplies.

As usual, the working people and military personnel will be the ones to suffer. I find the blaze attitude of the Editor in Chief astounding."
it appear YOUR attitude is astounding or , at best, bizarre… and your version quite contradictory..
you seem to side with the working class..which i agree with you..but you forgot or bypass the simple fact that those illegals that somebody dare to call immigrants and, in my country "refugees", will simply act as predators vs this very working class that you mentioned and will not affect the affluent and isolated life of corrupted wealthy self appointed upper class or élite that use those supposed to be "immigrants"..in fact illegals with propension for criminal acts..as a "force de frappe" to spoil the native middle class and workers (those whose ancestor built the nation )and maintain them under pressure…up today is exacltly what former President Kirchner had made causing the bankrupcy that you mentioned

I think that a wargame scenario between Bolivian depleted but angry army ..probably stiffened by squads of drug gangsters that want to push teeth on rich Argentina's market..all motivated as many Latin Americans when faced to Argentinians by an inferiority complex which fuel revanchism..pitched vs obsoleted equipped but professional and well directed (maybe by some commandos or buzo tactico Malvinas veterans recalled for the occasion)…all fighting in the uneasy environment of the border between those two nations …could be an interesting skirmish wargame..if we also add to the brawl the treachrous Chilean armed forces that this time would have to fight and that they are men instead of stabbing in the back like in 1982..it could be a very good wargame idea

ITALWARS22 Feb 2017 4:41 p.m. PST

"The Irish, for example, were a target in the C19th.

Even after entering the country, the Irish faced much prejudice, racism and discrimination in the United States because they were poor, uneducated, less skilled, considered disruptive and were Catholics in a land of Protestant dominance"

another speculative and meaningless comparison…for what i know Irish immigrants coming in US were obliged to leave their loved country because of great agricultural famine they were needed in US, they were skilled workers and behave, for the majority, very well…same as Italians..many or all skilled workers , pushed aside by the new Piedmontese Free masson grabbing of power in Italy that sponsored the Mafia at the expense of Southerners.but, in any case, really needed in US as workers..they were cared, registred and instructed to what to do as soon they arrived ..for ex. Ellis Island…samething , for what i know, in Argentina…while, on the other hand, the new "immigrants" or refugees, that are for the quasi totality allergic to a working life and to accept the culture of their hosts.. in practically all over the world are simply not needed, not invited…
and also liberal leftist trendy Uruguay , in the words of his again very liberal and trendy President Pepe Mujica faced some predictable problems:

link

Irish Marine Supporting Member of TMP22 Feb 2017 4:56 p.m. PST

I did read your post, and you were bemoaning the fact that Bill said something and you got your panties in a bunch about thinking two countries that might go to war. Again the whole premise of the Cold War gaming involves several modern countries tearing each other's guts out, same thing happened with the Ukraine before the shooting started. So what is the point of wargaming or discussing current events or any of it.

Personal logo ochoin Supporting Member of TMP22 Feb 2017 7:03 p.m. PST

another speculative and meaningless comparison

No, it's called "history". People who are interested in history often try to find meaning in the present by applying the lessons of the past.

for what i know,

Yes…there seems to be some gaps in your knowledge. You have rather a rosy view of the Irish who, like everyone else, had good & bad elements.
Did you know for instance, that the Irish Mob were the first organised crime gang in the US?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Mob

That corrupt Irish politicians & cops dominated the early & mid 20th century political scene in several areas in the US, including New York? I'm assuming you never heard of Tammany Hall? I'd add support for the IRA terrorists but the Americans behind this were 3-4 generations removed from Ireland & hence, not really Irish at all.

You seem to be operating under the delusion that the Irish diaspora was solely by virtue of the Potato Famine. Were you aware the Irish were oppressed by their colonial masters the English & sought freedom abroad? Yes, not unlike modern immigrants really…..(see my point above about studying history).

that are for the quasi totality allergic to a working life and to accept the culture of their hosts

I'd respond to this if I knew what it meant. Essentially, you seem to be applying extreme right wing politics to a humanitarian issue. I must admit I'm no expert on South American issues but I don't seem to be alone on this.

Noble71322 Feb 2017 8:36 p.m. PST

Yes, in relation to historical events that did, or did not, happen or, events far in the future i.e. sci-fi.

However it is not appropriate and demonstrates an appalling attitude to wish war on two nations in the here and now simply for your wargaming pleasure. Damn bad taste!

So basically anyone wargaming Ultra-Moderns is "inappropriate and in bad taste"? I'm not supposed to learn anything by pitting my USMC MAGTF against North Korea, or my Syrian Arab Army mechanized battlegroup against jihadis? All those Tactical Decision Games in the Marine Corps Gazette should go away, lest some sensitive snowflake gets their feelings hurt at the idea of two present-day countries shedding blood? And before you retort that there should be a distinction between professional and hobbyist/amateur wargaming: there is significant overlap in the two communities, including on this site. And the accumulation of knowledge on the hobbyist side can and does spur innovation and creative thinking in the realm of professional military science.

TL;DR = Harden Up.

Skeptic22 Feb 2017 8:51 p.m. PST

Not sure how this relates to "warfare", so much as border *politics*…

ITALWARS23 Feb 2017 2:23 a.m. PST

"I'd respond to this if I knew what it meant. Essentially, you seem to be applying extreme right wing politics to a humanitarian issue. I must admit I'm no expert on South American issues but I don't seem to be alone on this"

-what's wrong with right wing politics?..do you prefer a mono-parliamnet without any wings ?..probably if there is a rising of that sort of thinking among popular not elitarian milieux..some conclusions have be drawn
-an "humanitarian question" ?..have you read this specific article??? the open doors to every drug dealer and criminal..for the majority males in young age.. that their corrupted or in any case incompetent governments want to get rid of probably because they are criminals in competition with the ones they protect, use them as shakedown to obtain money or, as a last option, as garbage trown in their neighbour 's gardens?
my simple idea is that a nation have to choose if and which people to invite

Personal logo ochoin Supporting Member of TMP23 Feb 2017 2:40 a.m. PST

Nothing wrong with right wing politics per se. You conveniently left off the word "extreme".

Your view of who makes up those seeking to immigrate is, shall we say, rather extreme…..you're starting to see a pattern here?

As you don't mention the Irish immigrants to the US in the C19th, I feel you see my point? That immigrants can be a mixed bag & I get a whiff that your wholesale rejection of the ones in question may have another aspect?

ITALWARS23 Feb 2017 3:13 a.m. PST

i can add "extreme" of course..if they are elected by people and respect the law…
but again you call "immigrants" those who aren't immigrants…but outlaws..
i mentioned the 19c. Irish immigrants..legal immigrants..workers wishing to work..i cannot accept the definition of a mixed bag only because some few ones were looking for trouble by forming bands…or should i think that British are a "mixed bag" because among you can also find those hockey supporters/hooligans that lost the stanley Cup?….you have to consider % of crimes into a population before saying "mixed bag"..and i think that if those illegals invading Argentina or US had as consequence a political domestic action from the Argentina and US President..the issue seem to be important..

ITALWARS23 Feb 2017 3:14 a.m. PST

sorry..not British..Canadians

Personal logo ochoin Supporting Member of TMP23 Feb 2017 3:29 a.m. PST

@ italwars. If you can't differentiate between Canadians & British, there's no hope for you.

The rest of your post is too difficult to decipher. I'm sure you're making a point but I'm darned if I know what it is.

alien BLOODY HELL surfer Supporting Member of TMP23 Feb 2017 3:58 a.m. PST

I think his point is immigrants are all bad and are criminals or at least, that's all I can make out of it.

Personal logo ochoin Supporting Member of TMP23 Feb 2017 4:11 a.m. PST

I think his point is immigrants are all bad and are criminals or at least, that's all I can make out of it.

That was my impression, too. But surely no one is quite as facile as that? Avere un chiodo fisso in testa. Is this correct, Italawars? Ma, che sei grullo?

Could Italwars write his posts in Italian? I could translate as I think my Italian is better than his English (though a bit infested with Abruzzese dialect).

Magari!

ITALWARS23 Feb 2017 4:48 a.m. PST

Ma, che sei grullo?..that's not Italian but only non- elegant Toscany dialect..the most unpleasant and rude dialect that you ear in my country…

ITALWARS23 Feb 2017 4:59 a.m. PST

"I think his point is immigrants are all bad and are criminals or at least, that's all I can make out of it."

again and again..what the therm "immigrant" has to do with this post referring to a wall to stop illegals and criminals?..for what i know "immigrants" are cared and allowed to enter in a different way..the same way if i apply to go studying or working in USA or UK…during my travels and stay abroad i was never faced by a wall..or armed police..well if in 2007 at the Old Trafford they had discovered the AC Milan flag hidden in my pocket maybe i would have been searched..but nothing more :-))

Personal logo ochoin Supporting Member of TMP23 Feb 2017 6:24 a.m. PST

your pigeon English


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I think you mean "pidgin" English.

ITALWARS23 Feb 2017 6:34 a.m. PST

thanks for showing us your pict

Grignotage Supporting Member of TMP23 Feb 2017 9:38 a.m. PST

So, is this obviously political thread full of insults going to be closed down? Or is it ok?

Personal logo Weasel Supporting Member of TMP23 Feb 2017 10:14 a.m. PST

No, someone might game political insults in 15mm, so it;s obviously gaming related.

doug redshirt23 Feb 2017 12:00 p.m. PST

I remember a time when on payday nights if you were in a real Irish bar in certain cities, they would come around and collect for "the cause". I also remember when our rivers caught fire and the skies were grey all the time from pollution. Really dont want to go back to that either. Also know that I am not about to start harvesting crops or working on roofs in 100 degree weather.

Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian23 Feb 2017 1:09 p.m. PST

In any confrontation, looks like Bolivia's key weakness is lack of offensive air power.

link

Rhysius Cambrensis Supporting Member of TMP23 Feb 2017 3:03 p.m. PST

Well that escalated quickly.

Charlie 1223 Feb 2017 9:48 p.m. PST

Italwars- Your appalling lack of knowledge regarding the US immigrant experience is staggering. I won't bother to try and correct your misinformation (it would take far too much space and, in any case, fall on deaf ears). Suffice to say, you know VERY little about it…

ITALWARS24 Feb 2017 2:09 a.m. PST

i'm amused that, despite what youre trying to impose, my knowledge was sufficient to tell you the full truth

Personal logo ochoin Supporting Member of TMP24 Feb 2017 2:48 a.m. PST

picture

Tgunner Supporting Member of TMP24 Feb 2017 9:59 a.m. PST

Interesting that both sides use the same Austrian tank.

picture

It reminds me a lot of the AMX-13, but with a bigger gun. Is it really a tank though? It uses an APC as its hull. Maybe more of a self-propelled gun.

Rod I Robertson Supporting Member of TMP24 Feb 2017 10:58 a.m. PST

Not really seeing any non-tangential connections to Ultramodern warfare here. There is lots of politicking and baiting going on but not a great deal of military or gaming discussion. Perhaps our time and efforts could be better spent discussing warfare and gaming in the Ultramodern milieu.

Rod Robertson.

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