"No terrain in GW!!!" Topic

Ok, the title is not 100% correct, if you count boxes of plastic.

Went into a GW store, first time in ages (gave up long ago), but surly it was not that long. ("it probably was, and don't call me shirley) Seriously though, they are usually closed when I walk past.

When I went in I was surprised to see no scratch built terrain on the game tables. All they had were their own plastic boards and terrain (including those awful flat trees they continue to push). The closest was a building kit bashed from their own building kits, not counted. I asked what happens if people (particularly the uninitiated or parents) spend money on an army, but don't want to (or can't) spend much the same on a table of terrain. The chap told me he'd suggest they buy just one or two to start with and wouldn't talk about scratch building, unless they asked (uninitiated and parents, remember).

I remember when they had tables full of fantastic scratch built terrain, not these plain looking plastics. They would build them in store and you could watch the progress and maybe even join in the fun.

I understand they are a big company with hungry share holders and it may even make good business sense to some people. However they used to be a company that pushed intelligent games, quality figures and a craft based hobby promoting imagination and creativeness. I guess they employ people for that now. I think they may just be turning into a toy shop (I hope you know what I mean). This may be the result of moving from niche to mainstream. Sorry, no, it is the result of moving from niche to mainstream.

I can only assume sales of figures are low and now they need all their players to buy their terrain to make up the amount. Fare enough I guess.

I find it a shame, what ever the reason.

There goes all creativity. So sad.

Dan

You should look at their last few financial reports….they're doing all right…..

Part of problem is that the incessant push for sales means high turnover among retail staffers, so it is far less likely these days to find GW employees who know how to make scratch built terrain.

And they used to have articles on making terrain in white dwarf
Which they don't anymore

I'm not sure if it's a "niche to mainstream" thing as much as it's a "make the shareholders happy" thing. I've worked for companies that wasted their employees' time and their customers' goodwill in the pursuit of literal pennies of additional profit. Questions like "What if the customer gets frustrated with the declining quality of service and moves on at the end of their contract?" are answered with comments like "That doesn't show up on the bottom line for this quarter – do what you're told and make your numbers or look for another job."

There's little money for GW in scratch built terrain. They could return to selling books on the topic, publish articles in White Dwarf covering it, and have employees show customers how to do it, but none of that is as profitable as selling terrain kits directly to the customer. It can be argued that it contributes to creativity and building up a loyal base of fans, but those aren't things that show up on a spreadsheet or a shareholder report.

I decided to dwell in the past on this one and go OldHammer. You can find a number of scratchbuild articles from WD on the net,and I have both their terrain building books. Its their decision to run their business as they see fit,but I dont have to support it. I also dont compelled to tell other people how to spend their own time and money.

I believe YogiBearMinis has a point. The staff in the stores have changed from enthusiasts to salespeople. I'd guess that GW are much stricter in how the store should look, how items are displayed and how the staff should operate.

Of course it comes down to the shareholders but investors and shareholder rarely understand the products, services or returning and new customer expectations and hopes.

It seems that I once read that in business, "long run" is defined as five years. Selling their scenery looks good on the spreadsheet now, and in five years, when undermining the customer base starts to take effect, whoever thought this up is working for somebody else, and has long ago spent the bonuses they made. And the shareholders are after a new guy to provide more profits.

Grelber

What I want to know is what happened to all that awesome scratch built terrain in all those stores, and also all those great boards the tournament team had. Is it in a warehouse somewhere? Can I buy some of it used? I promise not to post photographs of it alongside other current GW products.

I would imagine that this is more in response to changes in customer than in an attempt to get more money out of people necessarily.

Althought they might do that too, probably people have so much money to spend and if they spend it on terrain they don't spend it on figures.

So as far as making money in that sense it might be a wash.

Now what they might be aiming for is getting better looking games going on in places.

I've noticed that among some GW players the look of the game doesn't matter at all.

They will happily play with an entire army of unpainted models and in some cases many of them even unbuilt.

They will play on any terrain at hand, randomly placing buildings of any sort anywhere more for the strategic advantage they offer than in an attempt to create a realistic looking table top.

If they aren't painting their models probably most of them aren't going to spend a week scracthing building a ruined Titan hanger or an evening putting together a bunker.

They will play with whatever the store has at hand, painted, unpainted, primed, period specific or not.

GW probably saw this going on and decided that the day of scracth building terrain had passed, as it probably has, and decided to not only capitalize on it by producing their own product but also to make the games that people play look halfway decent by at least having terrain available and simple to put together for them to fight over.

It may or may not be a shame but I'd imagine that this is GW responding to customers rather than the other way around.

Obviously OP is not the target audience, he hasn't even been in a GW store in ages, so they, as a company aren't trying to please him.

I love the new terrain products. They are modular enough that you can make a bunch of different things out of them. They are pretty good looking pieces.

I can't really fault GW for not pushing the terrain building aspect of the hobby when they can sell terrain although it would be nice if they had more tutorials on how to put the pieces together in different ways to make various things.

I'm crap at building terrain myself, for the most part, and really like pre-made stuff that is easy to put together, paint and, in many ways more importantly, is durable plastic rather than balsa wood and foamcore.

The staff in the stores have changed from enthusiasts to salespeople.

Which is no different than staffing your CrossFit business with no one under 500 lbs.

You can't hard-sell a ing hobby. If you chase off employees with vested interest in what your selling, leaving only people who will tolerate lots of crap from upper management, you have problems.

And it's not like they have a diverse selection of their own scenery. I looked last night. Three different repackaging of that same grove of three trees? Really? it's not exactly versatile.

And it's not like they have a diverse selection of their own scenery. I looked last night.

Between AoS, WH40K and The Hobbit, they have over 50 scenery kits…

And as for the OP lamenting GW moving away from scratch built terrain, what about the rest of the wargaming world?

You can't move at a show for all the MDF terrain kits nowadays!

Nobody is stopping anyone from scratchbuilding terrain. But GW, and many others, are offering alternatives, if scratchbuilding is not your thing. And that's good, not a shame!

I agree with Pictors Studio and Lovejoy. When GW started offering plastic terrain some years back I remember saying to anyone who would listen, "what took them so long?". It seems such an obvious fit with their customers, to provide quality ready-to-assemble terrain.

Yes I enjoy the scratch building aspect of the hobby and have enough terrain already that if/when I resume playing GW games, I will continue to scratch build many of my pieces.

But when/if I do round out my collection by buying some of GW's plastic terrain pieces, I will not regret the money. They are terrific pieces, much higher detailed than anything I would build, very flexible and customizable, and very durable.

Whoa, great list of responses there.

Good to see creativity and imagination supporters. And those for the EE too! (pum, pum, pum,..pu pu pu pum)

Lovejoy, great show, bad post. They are not offering alternatives to scratch building, as, according to the chap I spoke to, he won't mention it in the first place. An alternative, is just that, an alternative to something else, and he is not giving people the something else. I wander if all stores and store people are of the same view? Do they all have no scratch built terrain on show? Will Lovejoy make enough money by selling the model soldiers to fix the church roof? (Sorry, but its a good show!)

Also GW used to give good alternatives, a choice of metal or plastic grunts, for example. Now they seem not to offer any choice anywhere I can see, apart from game or army, of course. (or to walk out the door an not come back, but that won't solve anything)

My main gripe is the fact that in a few years, if not today, there will be kids (and adults) who are playing these games and not possessing any of the skill or passion or interest in what the hobby (as a whole, not just GWs) is actually all about. Here, it is being treated like a box you shake out and play with like any toy or board game. The entire modeling aspect, over half if not all of the hobby, to many people at least, is being lost. Its becoming a computer game where all you do is play, and nothing else, and where is the real value in that? No one can honestly dispute that a game you just pull out any play is better for anyone than a game you can play and paint and create and build and so on…(go on, I know some one will)
Probably the same thing historical players have long said about scifi and fantasy games, due to the minimal research required, I guess.

But if you don't hire enthusiasts, you can cut fifty cents an hour from your personnel costs--and, as noted, the bad consequences don't show up until after the executive has collected his bonus. My son tells me they're sending people out to run tournaments who don't recognize early GW figures, which then get expelled for not being GW. This leads to tournaments NOT run by GW, and with no "only GW figures" requirement.

Borders did the same thing. I had clerks who couldn't spell Jane Austen, and pre-orders kicked back because the book wasn't in print. But I'm sure they saved on personnel costs until they went broke.

But GW has always worked on a theory of "disposable customers," so we'll see.

Between AoS, WH40K and The Hobbit, they have over 50 scenery kits…

All but three are constructs. And that's really only one. So if you're going to ween me from my styrene cutter and aquarium plants, they'd have a long way to go.

But when/if I do round out my collection by buying some of GW's plastic terrain pieces, I will not regret the money. They are terrific pieces, much higher detailed than anything I would build, very flexible and customizable, and very durable.

I didn't say they weren't. it's just not particularly diverse.

Lovejoy, great show, bad post.

Why, thank you. I thought your post was pretty bad too, but didn't feel the need to say it…

Here, it is being treated like a box you shake out and play with like any toy or board game. The entire modeling aspect, over half if not all of the hobby, to many people at least, is being lost. Its becoming a computer game where all you do is play, and nothing else, and where is the real value in that?

Seriously? You are aware that GW models are multipart kits that need to be built and painted, and that offer a wide range of modelling options? This is not a ready-to-go board game.

All but three are constructs. And that's really only one.

I'm sorry, I'm not sure what this means…
here'sa link to the current 40k scenery stuff:
link

why should they , there not making money from it , they make money from buying the plastic stuff.

its not there responsibility to promote things they cant make money from.

They promote kitbashing (see warhammer tv) , but no way on the Emporers dust blasted hive city covered planet will they mention other manufacturers.

Oh, well LJ, guess I beat you to it!

I don't consider gluing a few bits together very creative, its just basic assembly. The only reason they are not pre-assembled is the extra cost. Besides some of their kits are, or have been, only 1-3 piece figures. You only have to paint them, as you have to buy the paints. Also if you have looked at their boxed sets, save for gluing a few bits together, they are ready to go games, particularly their latest spin offs.

I wander if they are not just heading towards the board game style of ready to play boxed sets. They are already so close.

I completely understand the money grabbing view point, but not at the cost of putting people off. Having GW terrain in stores if fine, they have done it for years. Dumbing people, particularly kids, down for a penny is not. Denying people knowledge is what I mean by dumbing down. They should be teaching people new skills, not just new ways to spend money. That would keep more people happy and, thus more likely to buy from them. I think a lot of parents have a hard enough time understanding the value of these games, with out taking out any educational value, and lots of adults think the same way for their own hobby interests.

The scratch built terrain by their own design team wipes the floor with any of the plastics they have out. Just look back a decade or two in white dwarf and such.

Every GW staffer I've ever met is a talented painter and an enthusiastic modeler. And while the new age terrain is pricey, the quality and details are top notch. As has been mentioned, the OP is not the target audience. I don't see why it's a negative for GW to promote their products. Secondly as Pictor has mentioned, not everyone has the talent, inclination, or even desire to scratch build terrain. Kudos to GW, Pegasus, and every other producer of terrain for making gamer-life easier.

Also lets not forget one other aspect of terrain. Time. This hobby is a black hole of time. It can consume endless amounts of freetime.

I can build award winning terrain, but I don't have infinite time to do so. Pre-made terrain is a big time saving boon that I don't sneer at.

Xin/Jeff

I think that what separates wargaming from board gaming is the 'craft' component: the need to build, paint, finish and so forth.

I like playing pre-made board games but I enjoy building and painting more.

But – whilst I enjoy scratch building (especially scenery) – few of us do everthing from scratch: I often use resin and plastic (and MDF) building bits, adding my own twist where I can. But I don't sculpt my own figures!

What I'm saying is that I think there's a place for plastic and resin scenery that requires little more than painting. But I also think that scratch building should be encouraged.

If GW aren't going to do that (for whatever reason including it not matching in with a purported/presupposed business model) we have to remember that GW isn't the wargaming hobby: they are, as they are fond of saying, the GW Hobby.

If GW is often used as a gateway to Wargaming in general by young people, that's not really GW's concern, I guess, and nor should it be.

Rather, it's everyone else's comcern, surely?

John T

Someone asked what happens to all the great terrain from their shows and magazines etc, it either gets recycled or as was the case for a few years dumped on top of the warehouse managers office.

Pictors has a point. If most 40K players don't even bother painting their figures because having cool-looking armies on the tabletop isn't a big concern to them, how good the battlefield on which their unpainted armies fight is much further down on their priority list.

Also, don't forget GW did away with large gaming-friendly stores and switched to smaller units geared primarily towards moving product about 5 years ago. These stores would not have more than a couple of small 3' x 3' tables with rudimentary pre-made terrain for demo purposes.

With you xintao! I don't sneer at pre-made terrain either, particularly as I make and sell it.

As I said above, I have no problem with GW or anyone else having pre made terrain. My problem is with GW, at least the guy I spoke to, pretending scratch building does not exist when talking to customers, or potential customers.

The GW hobby is different from the miniature wargaming hobby. So, true.

So let me see if I understand your complaint The H Man:

You think it is terrible that a company that sells a product does not mention the alternative to that product.

So you go into a lot of restaurants and the waiter says things like:

"Our specials tonight are the Salmon and the Beef Wellington. Of course you could also go home and make your own food and it would be cheaper."

or while shopping for a car:

"Welcome to Toyota, can I take you to look at something on our lot? Alternately there is a bicycle shop just down the road that sells a low cost, healthy way to commute to work. Or if you'd like I can show you how to get bus passes online."

Does that happen to you a lot?

Do you complain when it doesn't?

Yep, Scott, yet another fine gamer railing over others doing the hobby the "wrong" way. Sigh.

GW's focus is recruiting new gamers. This provides a service to the wargaming community in general as it brings new people into the fold, those that stick with it and move on (or not…they are still wargamers). As this is their focus, why should they mention scratchbuilding terrain? Is the average customer walking into a GW store for the first time going to have the skill or inclination to scratchbuild terrain? If the player sticks with the hobby long term, more than likely they're going to discover sites like this one and learn about scratching terrain, cheaper alternatives, etc. Worst thing we can do as fellow hobbyists is to turn them away because they are doing it "wrong…"

Damon.

Pre-made terrain is a big time saving boon that I don't sneer at.

True but there are other places to get it that will not cost you an Arm & a Leg.

So you can spend $150 USD with GW and get some Terrain or shop around and spend that $150 USD and get a lot of Terrain.

I have brought two of Pegasus' Large Gothic sets and one box of this.

Spent less than $100 USD actually way less than $100. USD

Some good comments.

I have never heard of restaurants or car dealers directing customers elsewhere (may happen? Your stories sound legit, were you the dealer? I will have to complain now, you sounded so convincing!), but I have been around when GW would suggest and show scratch building terrain in their stores, and there lies the issue.

Lets not forget the fact that GW used to (does?) sell things for scratch building, foam cutter, pva, "bits" packs, barbed wire, so on. There is nothing stopping them from going down that path and adding foam core (perhaps printed with cut out lines?), balsa wood, and such. They would still make money and be educating people on more than just gluing plastic. (I know their job is not to educate people, but surly they could bend their own rules, just this once?)

I never said I was a gamer. Also GW is doing the GW hobby, which has always been doing things the wrong way. Its just gotten worse is all.

Pictors may have a problem with you suggesting GW provides a service to their competitors, Garand. Careful.

Are people walking into GW going to have the skill to assemble a plastic model kit, let alone paint it? Possibly not, but they will happily teach them (I would hope). So why not terrain? Also they are doing a bad job preparing people for the greater hobby outside if they don't show the different aspects of it (but, again, as pointed out by eagle eyed writers, this is not their job, making money is).

Lots of points, but they all seem to be avoiding the main one.
GW used to do scratch built, now, at least one shop does not (if not the whole company).

If this does not bother you, yay. But I does bother me as I used to be a kid going there and now kids (or adults) are not getting the full experience, and thats a shame.

If its not company wide, than I suggest anyone from GW reading should have a look at what's going on.

Why would they be surly about bending their own rules?

Really???

Pictors is, of course, having a go at my misspelling of surely. (Gosh isn't that surly of him)

One that hasn't been mention yet (I don't think) is that terrain items can be purchased as assets for your army and fielded as "units" during games. I'm thinking of things like defensive walls, energy stations, etc in games of 40k. These things can be added to your army and grant in-game bonuses.

It's a genius marketing ploy by GW -- make terrain into a competitive tactical option for armies, and then sell models kits of each piece of terrain on the list.

Of course, it contributes to the problem the OP identified, which is the death of scratchbuilt terrain (at least on GW battlefields).

Thank you Patrick. Well said.

However, if you have the rules for the terrain (I assume they are in the book for 40K? I believe AOS come with the terrain? ), there is nothing stopping you from making your own to use with those rules (apart from GW staff, perhaps).

40K terrain is easy to make. There is so much packaging these days, plastic containers, bottle caps, straws, egg cartons, not to mention materials like foam core, card board, wire. Easy peasy! What glue guns were made for (and burning fingers, lets not forget).

I asked what happens if people (particularly the uninitiated or parents) spend money on an army, but don't want to (or can't) spend much the same on a table of terrain. The chap told me he'd suggest they buy just one or two to start with and wouldn't talk about scratch building, unless they asked.

Why is this a problem? They sell terrain. If someone can't afford it, they don't have to buy it. It's not GW's job to suggest alternatives.
If someone can't afford the minis, would you expect GW to show them how to sculpt their own? If not, why not? How is that different?

I don't sneer at pre-made terrain either, particularly as I make and sell it.

So presumably, when someone tries to buy your terrain, you tell them how it was made, and where to source the materials, and show them how to do it themselves rather than take their money…

GW used to do scratch built, now, at least one shop does not (if not the whole company).

Again, so what? Years back, all sorts of things had to be scratch built or converted, but as GW and many other companies have expanded their ranges, there is less need for it.

Now, you can scratch build and convert if you WANT to, rather than because you HAVE to. Creativity hasn't died, we just have more options open to us. And that's a good thing.

BZZZZZZZ Sorry that answer is incorrect (sorry, couldn't help it)

I agree, it does appear that it is not GW employees jobs to suggest alternatives. However, if someone can't afford it, or like I suggested, don't want to buy it, it makes for a pretty poor game (Tyranids V Space marines across the barren featureless landscape).

Making terrain is a lot easier than sculpting figures. Although both are fun! (actually GW did sell greenstuff and sculpting tools, I assume they still do?)

I am always happy to talk about how I make my terrain. I think a lot of people buy it as it is hand made or hand cast. A lot of it is pretty obvious anyway. Often, if I don't have what someone's after, I'll make suggestions on what they can do to make their own. Fact is, I still sell terrain.

Oh, boy….

No, again, according to the chap in the GW shop. New people cannot build their own terrain if they want to, because he is not giving it as an option. If they listen to him they will HAVE to buy GW terrain. And, yes, that is, in his small part killing creativity. And no, that's not a good thing.

They can, if they want.

He isn't saying not to.

They provide options.

Yes GW did at one time harp on making terrain and even had articles in White Dwarf.

But that was decades ago and today they have over priced Terrain pieces.

Yes you can buy them but there are cheaper alternatives to GW, way cheaper alternatives.

Oh and yes I would expect that GW employees would not say that you could just make your own or buy the cheaper stuff since, they want to sell you their over priced stuff.

I can just see a guy hiding around the corner from a GW store wearing a trenchcoat "psst,Hey kid! dont buy their stuff…you wanna build your own!" proceeds to open the coat and its lined with styrofoam, eggcrates,lichen and plastic packaging.

Spot on there, Mithmee. Oh, for the good old days at GW!

May have to nick your idea, skink. Though opening a shop next door may be less likely to get you arrested.

The H Man,

You would more than likely be open more than the GW store as well.

Right on! A franchise from state to state.

@H Man-
"I never said I was a gamer. Also GW is doing the GW hobby, which has always been doing things the wrong way. Its just gotten worse is all."
GW doing the GW hobby is not "wrong". With that mentality, Napoleonic players are doing the Hobby wrong as well. Having a focus on Nappy or GW only gaming means exactly that. That's your hobby. It's definitely gotten more expensive, but not worse. The halcyon days of yesteryear, scratch building everything, are gone. Nowadays a player can happily approach their hobby in any way that suits them.
I dare say that GW is the reason all of the other new miniatures gaming options exist to this day. They have made miniatures gaming easier to get into.

GW the reason for all the new companies better, cheaper options being available to day? Spot on mate. I guess I was wrong, GW have been doing things right all along.

No, GW is the reason a large majority of gamers have gotten involved into the miniatures wargaming hobby. Go figure, amp up the negative. Other companies offerings are not universally better or cheaper.

Spot on again mate, your on a roll! GW is the reason a large majority of gamers have gotten involved in the miniatures wargaming hobby. Beats being involved in the GW hobby. Where's the negative? Sounds pretty sweet to me. Its good to see your shopping around, just don't let GW know (don't worry, I won't tell).

Lmao. Your attempts at flipping my words are only working for you, mate, and not very well. Fact is GW is still king of the hill.
And in reference to your comment, I've actually returned to the GW fold in the last year.

Gsnr (whatever that means, too).

I am not sure its a fact GW is king of the hill, not in any encyclopedia I've ever read, besides, I thought Hank was.

Yeah, sorry for the posts, but you leave yourself wide open. All in fun.

Don't see where you think I leave myself wide open. Again, only in your eyes.
Carry on.